KOKBILLS Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 I do not think that means what you think it means.
CodeMonkey Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 You probably have a point there. Marrone is no genius for reaching for his own ex-QB far ahead of where many others have him ranked, assuming Nassib isn't a total bust. Of course, if he is a bust, I still think Marrone looks like a fool -- as you say, he should have known better. So in that sense, there is no upside to Marrone either way. You are ignoring the Buddy Nix genius smokescreen angle! If the Bills pass on Nassib in the 1st, every GM will think that if his college coach passed on him, he must really suck so they won't take Nassib either. Then the Bills swoop in and steal Nassib in the 2nd or 3rd!
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 You probably have a point there. Marrone is no genius for reaching for his own ex-QB far ahead of where many others have him ranked, assuming Nassib isn't a total bust. Of course, if he is a bust, I still think Marrone looks like a fool -- as you say, he should have known better. So in that sense, there is no upside to Marrone either way. Having a Trent Edwards/Ryan Fitzpatrick type of QB that can win 6-9 games a year may be good enough for you, but that's not going to be good enough for everybody. And Marrone's "inside track" on Nassib isn't going to squelch any criticism if it came to that. Building a winner isn't simply the act of selecting a QB in the first round. The guy actually has to be an elite player. There is a difference between selecting Brandon Weeden and RG3. Or more to the point, Roethlisberger or Losman. People will hate me for saying this because he had neither an impressive arm nor very good feet, but Chad Pennington is the sort of QB I think of when we think of one who is "good enough to get to the playoffs" but probably not to win it all unless everything lines up correctly. Honestly I would be OK with having a QB like that whether it came in the form of Kolb (I'm skeptical), Barkley (worried about the injury) or otherwise. All depends on how the draft shapes up, but it would be worth a #1 pick to establish credibility, stability and consistency at the position - these are really the things that make a QB a good leader. There are some who are born leaders of course, but most grow into the role and, when they end up keeping it, it's because they perform decently enough without making a ton of mistakes. Long story short, I don't think the guy has to be elite to be worth it in the first round. But he should be consistently above average, which to me is maybe the difference between Nassib and Barkley. The difference between Smith & Manuel and Nassib is that I view the former two to have elite potential.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 The odds of being in a position to draft an elite qb such as Luck or RGIII may be less than 1%. If you are not in that position for twenty years what do you do? Nothing? That is the Buddy Nix school of drafting qbs i.e. perfection to be the enemy of the good. It takes some moxie to draft a Kaepernick, Wilson or Brees at a draft position not close to the top. Yet those players were very impactful qbs. Aaron Rodgers and Flacco weren't drafted at the top of their respective draft classes, yet they were significant players. If you are not in position to draft a Peyton Manning then there are other avenues to take such as taking a chance on a wounded Brees or vagabound qb such as Warner who can catapult an irrelevant franchise into relevancy. My point is that being passive and waiting for something to happen that is unlikely to happen is a mindset that has crippled this lackluster franchise. Making a transaction that fails is not worse than not making a transaction out of a fear of failure. You're reading too much into what I wrote. I am not advocating that you never go on a date because you can't get a date with a super model. Far from it, in fact. What I am saying is going on a date with the first girl that you see isn't necessarily a "well thought out plan" for a fun date either. (There seems to be some assumed implication that the first girl you see is a super model because she was there. That's false.) People will hate me for saying this because he had neither an impressive arm nor very good feet, but Chad Pennington is the sort of QB I think of when we think of one who is "good enough to get to the playoffs" but probably not to win it all unless everything lines up correctly. Honestly I would be OK with having a QB like that whether it came in the form of Kolb (I'm skeptical), Barkley (worried about the injury) or otherwise. All depends on how the draft shapes up, but it would be worth a #1 pick to establish credibility, stability and consistency at the position - these are really the things that make a QB a good leader. There are some who are born leaders of course, but most grow into the role and, when they end up keeping it, it's because they perform decently enough without making a ton of mistakes. Long story short, I don't think the guy has to be elite to be worth it in the first round. But he should be consistently above average, which to me is maybe the difference between Nassib and Barkley. The difference between Smith & Manuel and Nassib is that I view the former two to have elite potential. Actually, I have no problem with trying to improve the QB position. If you have nothing, then a Chad Pennington-type is an upgrade. No doubt. Gailey's problem was that he expended all of his energy and what was left of his career trying to make chicken salad. He didn't develop anyone else. And Buddy didn't really even try to improve the position, instead going all-in on the notion his coach was a miracle worker who could fix a QB's athletic limitations.
hondo in seattle Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 From Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback... THIS SAYS IT ALL. "Quick comment about Nassib. In Hindi language - Nassib means Luck. Do I need to say more ?" -- Ram, Delhi, India KING: Bills fans, take note. Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130409/brian-banks-atlanta-falcons/#ixzz2Q4l8CCV6
Dr. Trooth Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 From Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback... THIS SAYS IT ALL. "Quick comment about Nassib. In Hindi language - Nassib means Luck. Do I need to say more ?" -- Ram, Delhi, India KING: Bills fans, take note. Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130409/brian-banks-atlanta-falcons/#ixzz2Q4l8CCV6 Is Ryan Luck any relation to Andrew Luck?
K D Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) fyi...Nassib is on Gruden's QB Camp tomorrow night at 7:30pm on ESPN2. The rumor is Gruden really liked him and thinks he is the wildcard in this draft. Looking forward to watching it. Also, Manuel is before him at 7 so might as well watch that too Edited April 10, 2013 by kdiggz
JohnC Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) You're reading too much into what I wrote. I am not advocating that you never go on a date because you can't get a date with a super model. Far from it, in fact. What I am saying is going on a date with the first girl that you see isn't necessarily a "well thought out plan" for a fun date either. (There seems to be some assumed implication that the first girl you see is a super model because she was there. That's false.) Actually, I have no problem with trying to improve the QB position. If you have nothing, then a Chad Pennington-type is an upgrade. No doubt. Gailey's problem was that he expended all of his energy and what was left of his career trying to make chicken salad. He didn't develop anyone else. And Buddy didn't really even try to improve the position, instead going all-in on the notion his coach was a miracle worker who could fix a QB's athletic limitations. We are basically agreeing. This qb issue drives me nuts. How does even a clownish franchise such as the Bills not find a legitmate franchise qb since the retirement of Jim Kelly, twenty years ago? The level of incompetence is stupifying! I'm simply making the poiint that there are good quality qb prospects in this draft. It appears now that the sluggish GM is belatedly making a concerted effort to find a quality qb prospect in this draft. Do any of the qbs in this draft have a greater upside than a Pennington type qb? I believe so. The only way you can really find out is to take the plunge and find out for yourself. If you find out that your qb prospect is a Pennington type qb and you prefer an upgrade then go out and draft or find another qb. Drafting a qb that you find out to be limited doesn't mean that you are stuck in an ever lasting marriage with that player. If you find yourself in that unsatisfactory situation then find another qb. It's not easy but it happens all the time. Flacco repalced Boller, a former first round qb pick. The Packers drafted Rodgers when they already had Favre. The Skins mortgaged a good chunk of their future to select RGIII. The Giants gave up a lot to get Eli from the Chargers. You do it by taking action, not waiting for the perfect situation that rarely happens. I understand why our country GM decided to go with Fitz; at the time he had few options. But not getting a decent prospect in the pipeline during his three year tenure made absolutely no sense. He let sterling prospects pass because he focused on the flaws instead of the assets. A Pennington type qb might have a weak arm but at least he could hit the broad side of the barn while standing in front of the barn. That is certainly a dramatic upgrade over the generously paid qb we let go this offseason. Edited April 10, 2013 by JohnC
reddogblitz Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 This qb issue drives me nuts. How does even a clownish franchise such as the Bills not find a legitmate franchise qb since the retirement of Jim Kelly, twenty years ago? The level of incompetence is stupifying! While it is true that we have not been able to find a suitable replacement for Jim Kelly after 20 years, I would say that we are by no means alone. Legitimate franchise qbs are rare and hard to find. I can think of several other teams in the same predicament. How come KC hasn't been able to find one since Joe Montana retired 20+years ago? Or Chicago since Jim McMahon left? Or the Rams after Kurt Warner left? Or the Cardinals after Kurt Warner left? Or the Cowboys since Troy Aikmen retired 15+ years ago? Or the Eagles since McNabb was unceremoniously dumped? Or Jacksonville after mark Brunell left? Tampa Bay? Minnesota after Culpepper? Clowns after Bernie? It's not an excuse, it's just reality. Hopefully it changes this year.
JohnC Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 While it is true that we have not been able to find a suitable replacement for Jim Kelly after 20 years, I would say that we are by no means alone. Legitimate franchise qbs are rare and hard to find. I can think of several other teams in the same predicament. How come KC hasn't been able to find one since Joe Montana retired 20+years ago? Or Chicago since Jim McMahon left? Or the Rams after Kurt Warner left? Or the Cardinals after Kurt Warner left? Or the Cowboys since Troy Aikmen retired 15+ years ago? Or the Eagles since McNabb was unceremoniously dumped? Or Jacksonville after mark Brunell left? Tampa Bay? Minnesota after Culpepper? Clowns after Bernie? It's not an excuse, it's just reality. Hopefully it changes this year. The reality is when an odd duck owner hires incompetent people such as Levy/Brandon/Nix to run the football operation the results are very predictable. A generation worth of excuses is not acceptable. No one is saying that acquiring a quality franchise qb is easy, but if it can't be done in a generation then something is systemically wrong.
K D Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 Ryan Nassib will be picked before Geno Smith. I don't think Nassib is as talented but I just get the feeling that he wants it more. I feel like Geno would be happy sitting in his living room painting pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if some scouts saw it that way too
eme123 Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 Nassib = Player on the Rise Progressively better as the season went along Vs. Geno= Gets beat by good teams. Gets beat in big games. Alot of questions about his drive to win.
Donald Duck Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 I don't think Nassib is as talented but I just get the feeling that he wants it more. I feel like Geno would be happy sitting in his living room painting pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if some scouts saw it that way too I'm not so sure about the Geno sitting in his living room painting pictures part, but I agree, Nassib comes across as a very, hungry, driven individual. The Pin stripe bowl is a good example of how Nassib pushes through adversity.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 I'm not so sure about the Geno sitting in his living room painting pictures part, but I agree, Nassib comes across as a very, hungry, driven individual. The Pin stripe bowl is a good example of how Nassib pushes through adversity. The more you talk about that game, the more convinced I am that you didn't watch it. Nassib completed fewer than 50% of his passes and relied upon a 370-yard rushing effort to get the win...there are plenty of examples from his college career to use to support his football acumen, this game is not one of them. I don't think Nassib is as talented but I just get the feeling that he wants it more. I feel like Geno would be happy sitting in his living room painting pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if some scouts saw it that way too I don't agree with that at all, I think Geno wants to be good just as badly as any kid would. And he better, because this league eats up QBs that don't work their tail off.
Donald Duck Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) The more you talk about that game, the more convinced I am that you didn't watch it. Nassib completed fewer than 50% of his passes and relied upon a 370-yard rushing effort to get the win...there are plenty of examples from his college career to use to support his football acumen, this game is not one of them. I'll tell you the same thing I did in the shoutbox. Nassib is a good field general that puts his team in the best possible position to win. Nassib has faced Geno Smith three times in his young career and came away with three victories. You may take that part of being a QB/leader for granted, thats up to you. I dont... Edited April 10, 2013 by dog14787
reddogblitz Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 You may take that part of being a QB/leader for granted, thats up to you. I dont... I'm agreeing with the fellow dog on this one. The only full games I saw of Ryan and Geno was the Pinstripe Bowl. I saw one guy who seemed to be OK in the elements and played well enough to help his team win however they did it (Ryan). The other guy (Geno) looked like he didn't want to be there. He played poorly in the elements and did not show much in the way of fire in the gut to win and leadership. Roger Staubach says leadership is a QBs greatest asset. The leadership thing worries me about Geno. And while there are usually not many cold snowy games in a season, they do come when the season is on the line if you're in the hunt which I certainly hope will be this year.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 I'll tell you the same thing I did in the shoutbox. Nassibs a good field general that puts his team in the best possible position to win. Nassib has faced Geno Smith three times in his young career and came away with three victories. You may take that part of being a QB/leader for granted, thats up to you. I dont These statements do absolutely nothing to support the notion that the Pinstripe Bowl was a good example of how Nassib pushes through adversity. His team ran the ball for 370 yards over a terrible West Virginia defense; they jumped out to a 12-0 lead and never trailed. By midway through the 3rd quarter, the game was out of reach at 26-7...this is the exact opposite of pushing through adversity; it's the book definition of game-managing. And as I told you in the shoutbox, QBs never face each other, they face the defense. That's how football is played...West Virginia's defense ranked 116th in the nation in 2012 (when Nassib went 11/23 for 130 yards against them) and 66th in the nation in 2011 (by far his best game vs. WVU, 24/32 for 240 and 4 TDs). In the lone season in which WVU had a good defense, 2010, Nassib went 5-15 for 63 yards in a 10-7 win. As I said in my previous post, there are plenty of examples from Nassib's college career to show his quality as a QB (his Senior game against Louisville was a beauty); that Pinstripe Bowl is NOT one of them. It takes next to nothing to win when the team runs for 370 yards, forces 2 safeties, and recovers a fumble deep in the opponents' territory.
eme123 Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 This seems like a ridiculous comparison given the different stages of their careers but I think its a better way to compare QB's than stats and highlights. 1.) Imagine you were starting the playoffs today. Who would you rather have as your starting QB? Peyton Manning or Tom Brady? 2.) Apply the same logic you used in the first question and decide which QB you would rather start the playoffs with. Geno Smith or Ryan Nassib? For me its Ryan Nassib.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2013 Posted April 10, 2013 This seems like a ridiculous comparison given the different stages of their careers but I think its a better way to compare QB's than stats and highlights. 1.) Imagine you were starting the playoffs today. Who would you rather have as your starting QB? Peyton Manning or Tom Brady? 2.) Apply the same logic you used in the first question and decide which QB you would rather start the playoffs with. Geno Smith or Ryan Nassib? For me its Ryan Nassib. I've always been partial to Manning, because he's never had a coach like Belichick. I have no idea on #2, as neither has played an NFL game yet. I'm not campaigning for Geno, I'm simply saying that I don't agree that effort or want-to will be the deciding factor with him...it'll be his ability to make quick decisions and execute.
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