Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 What did they achieve by telling Fitz he won't compete for a starting job? They got him off the roster. When did they tell Fitz he won't compete for a starting job? "Link or it didn't happen" The smart move would be to sign Kolb and draft a project QB in the 3rd like Tyler Bray. That way you can use rounds 1 & 2 to fill other holes. If Kolb plays well you keep him Can someone kindly construct a case (backed up with stats or other evidence) that Kolb is a better QB than the recently-cut Fitz or than TJax? Please, folks, end the insanity.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 When did they tell Fitz he won't compete for a starting job? "Link or it didn't happen" You're asking the wrong person. I was answering a question posited and discussed by two others. Let me amend. IF they told Fitz that, that's what they accomplished.
CSBill Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Yes but Skelton - not Kolb - is the Cardinals QB that we want, even if it means trading Mario to make it happen. some posts never get old
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 You're wrong here. Fitz flat out refused to take a pay cut. Of course he would have competed with whoever was brought in here. He just did not want to accept a pay cut. Period. Or at least, not the specific pay cut structured however the Bills were proposing. I think Fitz's final decision on the Bills final offer came after the leaked phone call, but Fitz says the phone call didn't influence his decision and implies it was not news to him. However, I note that "Bills won't let Fitz compete for the starting job" or "Bills won't let Fitz start any more" may not accurately capture the meaning of Nix' actual statement in the phone call "We just can't afford to pay that kind of money for a guy who's fighting for probably a backup job". "Probably fighting for a backup job" is Nix's assessment of how it will shake out, not a proscription against him competing to start or starting. I'm waiting to see where Fitz winds up and for what kind of $$
chris heff Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Yes but Skelton - not Kolb - is the Cardinals QB that we want, even if it means trading Mario to make it happen. What has Skelton ever done?
CSBill Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) Good question and I don't know the answer. I'd almost say another rookie except that we only have 6 picks so using 2 on QBs seems unlikely. If rumors they brought in Jeff Tuel for a workout are true, maybe an undrafted rookie free agent. Who's Jeff Tuel? And where was this rumor? link? Found him on Google, from Gil Brandts site, link Jeff Tuel , QB (6-3, 218) — Tuel ran the 40 in 4.60 and 4.65 seconds. He had a 4.12-second short shuttle and a 6.90-second three-cone drill. He had a 32-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-3 broad jump. Tuel had a great pro day, and I suspect that he will have a strong showing when he has a workout with the New England Patriots on March 22. Tuel will be joined by receiver Marquess Wilson — who was at the combine — at that workout, which will be held at the University of Idaho. Tuel also has a two-day visit with the Buffalo Bills set up for April 8-9. Edited March 16, 2013 by CSBill
KOKBILLS Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Can someone kindly construct a case (backed up with stats or other evidence) that Kolb is a better QB than the recently-cut Fitz or than TJax? Please, folks, end the insanity. Well...The only fair way to compare Fitz to Kolb would be to take Kolb's career at this point in comparison to Fitz career after his first 6 seasons in the NFL...Factually under that microscope they are similar... Through his first 6 seasons Fitz had 36 starts...He was 679-1175 (57.8%)...35 TD's to 42 INT's...He was sacked 92 times in that span...Fitz had a 12-23 record as a starter in his first 6 years combined... Kolb so far has logged 21 starts...He's 449-755 (59.5%)...28 TD's to 25 INT's...He's been sacked 77 times (a REAL bad stat, but that Arizona O-line was just awful...57 of those sacks came in only 14 starts in Arizona)...Kolb has a 9-12 record as starter... So...I'd say at this point Kolb is slightly ahead of where Fitz was a few years ago. He's slightly more accurate, and his TD to INT ratio is better...But on the surface there does not seem to be much difference between the two...I don't think it's possible whatsoever to truly figure out who is the better QB now because Kolb was asked to do the impossible in Arizona with a terrible O-Line and basically no running game (dead last in the NFL in rushing yards)...I think it would have been interesting to see what Kolb could have done in Buffalo the past two seasons...But no question it's a stretch to assume he would have been much better than Fitz...My gut tells me he would have been slightly better...But who knows...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Well...The only fair way to compare Fitz to Kolb would be to take Kolb's career at this point in comparison to Fitz career after his first 6 seasons in the NFL...Factually under that microscope they are similar... Uncertain, since we're looking for the services of a guy we can hire today. I think "what have you done for me lately" is the better approach... So...I'd say at this point Kolb is slightly ahead of where Fitz was a few years ago. He's slightly more accurate, and his TD to INT ratio is better...But on the surface there does not seem to be much difference between the two...I don't think it's possible whatsoever to truly figure out who is the better QB now because Kolb was asked to do the impossible in Arizona with a terrible O-Line and basically no running game (dead last in the NFL in rushing yards)...I think it would have been interesting to see what Kolb could have done in Buffalo the past two seasons...But no question it's a stretch to assume he would have been much better than Fitz...My gut tells me he would have been slightly better...But who knows... I'll go with that. People have a right to their personal gut feelings, so I respect your gut ,,,,erm so to speak. We agree that it's a stretch to assume he's much better than Fitz.
Prickly Pete Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Who's Jeff Tuel? And where was this rumor? link? http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013-nfl-draft/2013/3/11/4091368/2013-nfl-draft-jeff-tuel-buffalo-bills
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Please, Jets, sign him! Absolutely! He and Byrd have great chemistry on the field!
Meathead Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 during his interview with jon murphy fitz says buddy told him directly that he wouldnt be competing for the starting job. fitz said he was disappointed bc he felt like he had earned more than that (which i would agree with) and was the main factor in not agreeing to restructure. earlier fitz hints at that saying they couldnt come to terms on a restructure deal, which makes sense if fitz thinks he should be competing for the starting job (which would be a different level of contract) but the bills have already made up their mind he would have to transition to the backup/mentor role essentially fitz made it clear he wanted to take one last shot at starting someplace and if buffalo wasnt going to give him even the chance to compete for the job he decided to just let them cut him so he could try to catch on with another team that would. if that doesnt happen then he will be ready to assume the backup/mentor role. frankly i dont blame him. hes still in his prime years and is a bottom tier starter, why not see if he can get one more shot to put it all together. i wish the bills had let him do that here but they didnt so i wish him luck
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) during his interview with jon murphy fitz says buddy told him directly that he wouldnt be competing for the starting job. fitz said he was disappointed bc he felt like he had earned more than that (which i would agree with) and was the main factor in not agreeing to restructure. earlier fitz hints at that saying they couldnt come to terms on a restructure deal, which makes sense if fitz thinks he should be competing for the starting job (which would be a different level of contract) but the bills have already made up their mind he would have to transition to the backup/mentor role essentially fitz made it clear he wanted to take one last shot at starting someplace and if buffalo wasnt going to give him even the chance to compete for the job he decided to just let them cut him so he could try to catch on with another team that would. if that doesnt happen then he will be ready to assume the backup/mentor role. frankly i dont blame him. hes still in his prime years and is a bottom tier starter, why not see if he can get one more shot to put it all together. i wish the bills had let him do that here but they didnt so i wish him luck Meathead, is this the link? 'Cuz I listened 2x and I didn't hear a lot of what you're citing above stated there. I heard it explicitly stated that they couldn't come to terms (no hinting), that there was no "give and take" or negotiating on the Bill's side and they didn't put an offer on the table that he thought was worth his time and value. I heard a lot of emphasis on his family's happiness in Buffalo weighing into the decision and making it hard, but the coaching change didn't, Nathaniel Hackett was a "great friend of his" and "exciting prospect for me". I DID hear him say that he didn't like hearing that Buddy Nix saw him as probably "competing for a backup role" because he felt he'd "earned and deserved a little bit more", but I also heard him say that stuff really didn't "weigh a lot with his decision" or wasn't a "major factor" in what happened in the end. (Implied to me: it was the contract, overall) He explicitly said he thought Buffalo was his best opportunity to start and that he didn't know if there was another starting role he could compete for, and that if he needed to transition to a backup role he would do it. I left with the impression that Fitz would have been willing to take a pay cut and stay in a backup/mentor role because of his wife and family's "fit" with the area, but that the contract terms were the major issue and perhaps the compete for the backup role part (imply he could be cut just before the season with less chance to catch on elsewhere and at a disruptive time for a family with school-age kids.) I completely agree that from Fitz POV, it's better to be cut at the start of FA and have the best chance to be picked up by another team than to take a pay cut, only to be told "sorry you lost out" right before the season. I did not hear Fitz say being seen as a backup "was the main factor in not agreeing to restructure" in fact I heard him say it didn't really have much to do with the decision - I was left with the impression that contract was the major sticking point, though as you point out whether one is seen as the backup or the starter is a major influence on whether or not a contract can be reached. Still, Moore signed for what, $8k for 2 years as a backup or interim starter/mentor for Tannehill? Which is not that much less than Fitz' salary for this year. I wonder how far apart they really were. I also thought I heard Fitz implying that a chance to start wouldn't be paramount to him in a new opportunity, that the "fit" for his family was very important. He implied that there were several teams expressing interest. Just different interpretations of the same thing I guess. Edited March 16, 2013 by Hopeful
Meathead Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 yes of course it was about money, which is directly related to the role the bills saw for him and what fitz saw for himself. youre going to pay a guy a lot if hes the undisputed starter, a significant amout less if hes one of several potential starters, and a lot less if hes the backup/mentor. everyone (players, coaches, agents) knows what those values are so the value of the contract itself tells you all you need to know about what role each side sees the player filling putting everything together, including fitz's statement that buddy had already told him everything he heard in the prank phone call, makes it clear the bills told him they wanted him to transition to the backup/mentor role NOW. they didnt budge on a contract bc they clearly werent going to let him truly compete for the job, they had already decided they were definitely going in a different direction, his time as starter was done in buffalo, case closed if it was really and truly just about him wanting more money while the bills WERE going to let him compete for the starting job, then he would be an idiot not to take that offer. but we know fitz isnt dumb. why in the world would he not accept a backup/mentor job right here and now if thats what he was prepared to do? he desperately wants to keep his family in this city, but even that wasnt enough to allow him to flush his last remaining tiny chance at a starting job somewhere else its obvious at least to me hes going to wait until after the draft and hope that some team ends up qb needy enough to give him a shot at a starting gig. hes taking his last roll of the dice and if it doesnt work out he decides later if he goes to some other teams roster as a backup or just retires I also thought I heard Fitz implying that a chance to start wouldn't be paramount to him in a new opportunity, that the "fit" for his family was very important. He implied that there were several teams expressing interest. i didnt hear him say that at all, not even close. he said he would accept a backup/mentor role when it became obvious that was his only option, but he wasnt ready to concede that just yet. very very different situations
truth on hold Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Uncertain, since we're looking for the services of a guy we can hire today. I think "what have you done for me lately" is the better approach... I'll go with that. People have a right to their personal gut feelings, so I respect your gut ,,,,erm so to speak. We agree that it's a stretch to assume he's much better than Fitz. Fitz we know is not a starter in this league (some of us knew it a lot sooner than others). Kolb has potential as a starter. Therefore kolb is infinitely better than Fitz.
djfarr00 Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 Fitz we know is not a starter in this league (some of us knew it a lot sooner than others). Kolb has potential as a starter. Therefore kolb is infinitely better than Fitz. I've been on and off the board during the day hoping for a signing or at least some news / gossip. This is the smartest evaluation of Fitz vs. Kolb. I can't believe (at least according to Chris Brown) that we're not looking at him. We'd have a legit starter for a year and if he sucks then we have next years draft to pick up a QB. plus we wouldn't have to use a pick on a QB from this year's bunch of clowns and could fill positions of need (which there are decent amount)
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 yes of course it was about money, which is directly related to the role the bills saw for him and what fitz saw for himself. youre going to pay a guy a lot if hes the undisputed starter, a significant amout less if hes one of several potential starters, and a lot less if hes the backup/mentor. everyone (players, coaches, agents) knows what those values are so the value of the contract itself tells you all you need to know about what role each side sees the player filling In the big scheme of course, you're right, but I think the situation is a bit less granular than you imply. Moore just signed 2 yr/$8 million as, essentially, a backup. We don't know what Garrard got and "OvertheCap" is busted at the moment, but you get the point. There's TJax-type backup money and then there's what some of the top backups make, which overlaps with what some of the younger players and mid-to-lower tier starters make. Fitz' base salary last year was not far off of top-tier backup money - it's the bonuses that put it up into mid-tier starter cash. So I don't think it's that they wanted him to be a backup, I think it's that they wanted him to be a backup for a lowball price, and he said "even as a backup, I think I'm worth more on the open market" and the Bills said "So long, then" if it was really and truly just about him wanting more money while the bills WERE going to let him compete for the starting job, then he would be an idiot not to take that offer. but we know fitz isnt dumb. why in the world would he not accept a backup/mentor job right here and now if thats what he was prepared to do? he desperately wants to keep his family in this city, but even that wasnt enough to allow him to flush his last remaining tiny chance at a starting job somewhere else Um, because they wanted him to be a backup for chump change rather than a backup for top-tier backup/lower tier starter money, and he puts a higher price on himself as a backup? It's entirely possible that you're right, Meathead, but the point is - it's your inference, it wasn't something Fitz explicitly said. If it was, indicate the time in the interview when it was said and I'll go back and listen. its obvious at least to me hes going to wait until after the draft and hope that some team ends up qb needy enough to give him a shot at a starting gig. hes taking his last roll of the dice and if it doesnt work out he decides later if he goes to some other teams roster as a backup or just retires It may be obvious to you, but it was nothing said in the interview. From what he did say in the interview, his agent is getting offers now (12:30). I would be very surprised if he remains unsigned until the draft. Time will tell. i didnt hear him say that at all, not even close. he said he would accept a backup/mentor role when it became obvious that was his only option, but he wasnt ready to concede that just yet. very very different situations He explicitly said he thought Buffalo was his best opportunity to start and that he didn't know if there was another starting role he could compete for (about 11:00), and that if he needed to transition to a backup role he would do it, he's a competitor he's a realist. There was nothing about "when it became obvious that was his only option" and there was indeed a lot of stuff about fit for his family being important as he considers his next opportunity. (about 12:45) So partly I think it's two people listening and hearing different things. Partly I think you missed some things, partly turning inferences into things Fitz actually said. Time will tell. I think if he were offered a backup role for Arizona at a reasonable salary, he would leap at it tomorrow because of already having a home there. Backup Dalton on the Bengals (a team rumored to have some interest), maybe he'd wait and see. Compete for a starting job on the Browns or in Jacksonville, the devil might be in the details but that might be attractive enough to move his family. Again, time will tell.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 I know that I do not have a lot of posts so you have no reason to believe me but I am told that in addition to Fred Davis, Kevin Kolb will be in today as well. My sources are credible but take it for what it's worth.
filthymcnasty08 Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 I hope that's not supposed to be inspiring news.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 I hope that's not supposed to be inspiring news. Ha ha wasn't intended to be inspiring.
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