If you're going to start a rookie QB in 2013 . . .

[1B4IDie]

I'm curious what leads you to believe that. Do you have any outside sources that concur?

 

Yup.

 

This was a quick google search but I have heard this from multiple analysts.

 

http://www.grantland...ards-in-the-nfl

 

A good tackle still has more value, to be sure, but at some point, there should be a turn in how teams think of drafting guards. As more defenses look to isolate ends (hello, Aldon Smith) and penetrating tackles (what's up, Geno Atkins) on interior linemen, excellent guard play has become more important than ever.

 

Guard play has become key in todays NFL and Tackles are obviously still important but you used to get by with two big bodies next to C now you need a dynamic player. (And you have to pay for one when you get one ;-))

Edited March 14, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[thewildrabbit]

Yup.

 

This was a quick google search but I have heard this from multiple analysts.

 

http://www.grantland...ards-in-the-nfl

 

Guard play has become key in todays NFL and Tackles are obviously still important but you used to get by with two big bodies next to C now you need a dynamic player. (And you have to pay for one when you get one ;-))

 

A good tackle still has more value, to be sure, but at some point, there should be a turn in how teams think of drafting guards. As more defenses look to isolate ends (hello, Aldon Smith) and penetrating tackles (what's up, Geno Atkins) on interior linemen, excellent guard play has become more important than ever.

This might be a good example as to why the Bills should draft Alabama G Chance Warmack with that #8 pick. A guy who could be a perennial pro bowler.

 

Levitre was average at best and looked good because he played next to a guy who should have been named to the pro bowl. That is if he wasn't injured at the end of the last two seasons.

[Dibs]

. . .wouldn't you want a solid O-Line.

 

The 8 MIl for Levitre is a steal especially if you consider that he would have been keeping the Bills' rookie QB clean and healthy.

 

One Bills Drive conscientiously decided to let their starting QB, RG, and LG walk.

......

 

It's a little early for this sort of analysis of the team isn't it?

We still have 21m under the cap and FA is just starting.

 

I think you realize that we kept our starting RG(Urbik).......and that letting Fitz go was a fait accompli & irrelevant to your point about starting a rookie QB. Therefore your point is "Why let Levitre go......?"

 

With 8m(or close to it) we can likely get a downgraded OG......and a solid #2 WR.

I'm not saying that this will happen.....or that the new OG(I'm hoping for Moore myself) will definitely be solid.....but there is a clear logic to doing this in a year where we needed to pay for a starting OG, WR(x2), TE, LB(x2) & SS.

 

 

There comes a point in every negotiation where the money simply becomes too much for the situation.

Would you have been wanting him for 8.5m/year? 9m/year? 10m/year? At what point would you deem it too expensive, all things considered, to re-sign Levitre?

[1B4IDie]

It's a little early for this sort of analysis of the team isn't it?

We still have 21m under the cap and FA is just starting.

 

I think you realize that we kept our starting RG(Urbik).......and that letting Fitz go was a fait accompli & irrelevant to your point about starting a rookie QB. Therefore your point is "Why let Levitre go......?"

 

With 8m(or close to it) we can likely get a downgraded OG......and a solid #2 WR.

I'm not saying that this will happen.....or that the new OG(I'm hoping for Moore myself) will definitely be solid.....but there is a clear logic to doing this in a year where we needed to pay for a starting OG, WR(x2), TE, LB(x2) & SS.

 

 

There comes a point in every negotiation where the money simply becomes too much for the situation.

Would you have been wanting him for 8.5m/year? 9m/year? 10m/year? At what point would you deem it too expensive, all things considered, to re-sign Levitre?

Listen, Josh "fait accompli" Elliot, letting Fitz go is not irrelevant.

 

If you Let Fitz go in year where where Josh Campbell is the prize FA QB, and you have a GM that does not trade draft picks; it means you're heading to rookie QB land. It doesn't take much effort to add that together.

 

If you're valuation of Levitre is 6.5 a year, you can easily justify $2M a year just for the added protection of your rookie QB.

 

You have a proven guard with excellent track record. You can diminish Levitre's play all you want but the list of Guards that have started every game in the last 4 years and have the tiny number of sacks allowed not to mention run blocking do not exist. Titans paid fair to under market value for Levitre. Jack Locker and Chris Johnson are very happy with the move.

 

You can state, you can get an easy replacement for him, However look at 2008 Buffalo Bills and before.

 

You can speculate on these phantom possibility on signing FA however you know, I know and 1 Bills Drive better damn have known it ain't gonna happen. Not in a year where you have a new unproven coaching staff. You'll be hard pressed to find a quality FA that is going to sign up for the Buddy Nix Doug Morrone circus. It doesn't take a PhD in GM-ology to see that.

 

The point of thread is not more bitching about Levitre it is pointing out the illogical moves clearly point out that there is NO PLAN at all at One Bills Drive which is depressing and scary.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[Dibs]

Listen, Josh "fait accompli" Elliot, letting Fitz go is not irrelevant.

 

If you Let Fitz go in year where where Josh Campbell is the prize FA QB, and you have a GM that does not trade draft picks; it means you're heading to rookie QB land. It doesn't take much effort to add that together.

 

I didn't mean that it was irrelevant to the concept of starting a rookie QB(though I believe that it was going to be the case even if we kept Fitz). It was irrelevant to your thread premise......which was that "if you're going to start a rookie QB you want a strong OL". Cutting or keeping Fitz does not effect the thread premise......it's a different issue entirely.

 

If you're valuation of Levitre is 6.5 a year, you can easily justify $2M a year just for the added protection of your rookie QB.

 

You have a proven guard with excellent track record. You can diminish Levitre's play all you want but the list of Guards that have started every game in the last 4 years and have the tiny number of sacks allowed not to mention run blocking do not exist. Titans paid fair to under market value for Levitre. Jack Locker and Chris Johnson are very happy with the move.

 

You can state, you can get an easy replacement for him, However look at 2008 Buffalo Bills and before.

 

You can speculate on these phantom possibility on signing FA however you know, I know and 1 Bills Drive better damn have known it ain't gonna happen.

 

Not in a year where you have a new unproven coaching staff. You'll be heard pressed to find a quality FA that is going to sign up for the Buddy Nix Doug Morrone circus. It doesn't take a PhD in GM-ology to see that.

(I never diminished Levitre's play.....nor did I even comment on it.)

 

That's all well and good......but where would your line be? 9m/year? 10m? 12m? What price would he need to have for you to agree to not re-sign him? There would definitely be a price level where you would have to conclude that it was better for overall team cap management to let him walk.

 

Therefore, you actually agree with the base concept that overall team cap management plays a factor in the re-signing of players(& the signing of FAs). Even though you might disagree with the cap management professionals that the milti-billion dollar organization employs to figure these things......you cannot disagree that what they did is exactly the same in principle to what you yourself would do.

 

With all of the clear cap arguments relating to paying top dollar for an OG when we have limited cap resources and many areas to fill......the argument that not re-signing Levitre was the incorrect move seems somewhat emotional.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Dibs

[Prickly Pete]

I completely understand the concept of not "overpaying" for a guard. What I don't understand are comments from people who think good/exceptional guards are easily replaceable and/or not critical. I disagree completely. And when you are in position like the Bills (committing themselves to starting a rookie - either this year or next), you better damn well make sure your OL is solid! Every position up front is critical and important, PARTICULARLY when you're turning your offense over to a rookie! I'll get over the loss of Levitre soon enough, but Nix-Whaley better work on the OL BIGTIME! As I see it, right now, the Bills OL is below average. What's the point of drafting a "franchise QB" if he's just going to get killed, have his confidence destroyed and not be able to develop (which is exactly what happens every time teams throw rookie QBs in the lineup with no protection upfront!)

 

If guards are so important, how do you rank the positions in the NFL, top to bottom?

 

 

 

http://www.grantland...ards-in-the-nfl

\

 

 

I have seen articles like this about EVERY position in football.

 

I'm not disputing that they CAN be a huge asset, but really a great player at any position can be a huge asset. It's all about how the team is put together, and how the players are utilized.

[1B4IDie]

I didn't mean that it was irrelevant to the concept of starting a rookie QB(though I believe that it was going to be the case even if we kept Fitz). It was irrelevant to your thread premise......which was that "if you're going to start a rookie QB you want a strong OL". Cutting or keeping Fitz does not effect the thread premise......it's a different issue entirely.

 

 

(I never diminished Levitre's play.....nor did I even comment on it.)

 

That's all well and good......but where would your line be? 9m/year? 10m? 12m? What price would he need to have for you to agree to not re-sign him? There would definitely be a price level where you would have to conclude that it was better for overall team cap management to let him walk.

 

Therefore, you actually agree with the base concept that overall team cap management plays a factor in the re-signing of players(& the signing of FAs). Even though you might disagree with the cap management professionals that the milti-billion dollar organization employs to figure these things......you cannot disagree that what they did is exactly the same in principle to what you yourself would do.

 

With all of the clear cap arguments relating to paying top dollar for an OG when we have limited cap resources and many areas to fill......the argument that not re-signing Levitre was the incorrect move seems somewhat emotional.

 

1.) You may have believed a rookie QB was starting in 2013 with Fitz on the roster. That is your belief. Not a forgone conclusion.

2.) What are you talking about? Ofcourse cap management comes to play and a budget for each positional group and position. This isn't Science Fiction. This is the Bills in 2013. We know their cap space and we know the contract that Levitre signed with the Titans. The Bills without a doubt have room for a 6 years 50M for Levitre. Its not a matter of cap room.

It is a matter that OBD believes they can find a low cost option to protect their prized rookie QB.

This does not seem like a sound plan.

Its called insurance, the Bills could afford more insurance in the form of a top tier guard for their rookie QB.

The Bills will not have a Top Tier LG by any stretch of the imagination in 2013. That is poor planning or a complete lack of planning.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[jr1]

Erik James Manuel

[Dibs]

1.) You may have believed a rookie QB was starting in 2013 with Fitz on the roster. That is your belief. Not a forgone conclusion.

Agreed....that's why I put it in brackets. It wasn't pertinent to the issue at hand......and in hindsight, I shouldn't have mentioned it as it obviously detracted from the point too much....as shown by you addressing that one line rather than the point that was being made.

 

 

2.) What are you talking about? Ofcourse cap management comes to play and a budget for each positional group and position. This isn't Science Fiction. This is the Bills in 2013. We know their cap space and we know the contract that Levitre signed with the Titans. The Bills without a doubt have room for a 6 years 50M for Levitre. Its not a matter of cap room.

It is a matter that OBD believes they can find a low cost option to protect their prized rookie QB.

This does not seem like a sound plan.

Its called insurance, the Bills could afford more insurance in the form of a top tier guard for their rookie QB.

The Bills will not have a Top Tier LG by any stretch of the imagination in 2013. That is poor planning or a complete lack of planning.

 

We need a WR. Do we have room under the cap to sign one for 13m/year(top 3 contract)?

Yes we do.

Would it be sound cap management to do so in the current situation we are in?

No it wouldn't.

Similar situation with OG. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture of what is best for the team as a whole.

 

All of this is a matter of where the money is best spent. I personally would have been ecstatic if we managed to afford to re-sign Levitre.....brought in a #2 WR, a TE & 2 LBs. That would be awesome. You seem to think however that there is only one strategy to running a team & that if the team doesn't follow your thoughts.......then they are clueless and without a plan.

[Malazan]

Yup.

 

This was a quick google search but I have heard this from multiple analysts.

 

http://www.grantland...ards-in-the-nfl

 

A good tackle still has more value, to be sure, but at some point, there should be a turn in how teams think of drafting guards. As more defenses look to isolate ends (hello, Aldon Smith) and penetrating tackles (what's up, Geno Atkins) on interior linemen, excellent guard play has become more important than ever.

 

Guard play has become key in todays NFL and Tackles are obviously still important but you used to get by with two big bodies next to C now you need a dynamic player. (And you have to pay for one when you get one ;-))

 

So you quoted an article that said Tackles are more important...but guards have gained in importance...now on to that point about guards being more valuable than tackles. Do you have anything that doesn't literally say the opposite of what you're saying?

[ganesh]

. . .wouldn't you want a solid O-Line.

 

The 8 MIl for Levitre is a steal especially if you consider that he would have been keeping the Bills' rookie QB clean and healthy.

 

One Bills Drive conscientiously decided to let their starting QB, RG, and LG walk.

 

So now you have TJax, a 3rd string QB on any NFL roster, Jason Campbell the best FA QB (well probably second best to Fitz (and that is a sad FA class)) at QB. Meaning if you draft anyone with a pulse they will win the starting QB job.

 

At the same time as going with a rookie QB that needs to get acclimated to the speed of the NFL you let your Top10 O-Line fall apart.(really Top 3 but I don't feel like arguing that point, you can't really say the Bills O-Line in 2012 would be ranked under 10 unless you're a troll)

 

Hopefully AJ McCarren can translate to a #1 overall pick in 2014 because we're seriously headed that way. Like seriously the 2013 schedule is tough and the Bills can't beat the Jests so 4 wins would be an accomplishment at this pace.

 

Awesome plan One Bills Drive.

 

Wow, usually "there is always next year" starts in Nov not March. This is really really really depressing.

 

Fitz is not a starting QB...24 hours since he was let go, I don't see teams clamoring to sign him as their starter.

Urbik is our starting RG and not Reinhart. Reinhart got a 1 year deal to be a backup.

Not signing Levitre hurts. But I think the Bills made a decision to save that money for re-signing Byrd, Wood and Spiller in the next two years. If they can sign a couple of FA for the defense in the coming days, then thety can select a guard in Rd 3 to replace Leivtre. ERic wood (while injured) means a lot more to this team than anyone else on that line. Wood cnanot be pushed back into the pocket and that gives a huge comfort for the QB to make his reads and throw.

 

The biggest question mark is: Who is going to be the QB? Will they get a shot at Geno or Barkley and would either of them be ready to be the starter on Opening day.

 

This might be a good example as to why the Bills should draft Alabama G Chance Warmack with that #8 pick. A guy who could be a perennial pro bowler.

 

Levitre was average at best and looked good because he played next to a guy who should have been named to the pro bowl. That is if he wasn't injured at the end of the last two seasons.

 

+1. Eric Wood means a lot more to this OL and is also the natural leader. Hoping for him to have a remaining injury-free career with the Bills for a long time like Kent Hull. He is a natural at that position.

[ndirish1978]

At 8M a year Levitre would rank only behind Chris Snee (11M) and Logan Mankins (10M) in regards to cap hit. 3rd highest paid guard is a steal? That's delusional.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

. . .wouldn't you want a solid O-Line.

 

The 8 MIl for Levitre is a steal especially if you consider that he would have been keeping the Bills' rookie QB clean and healthy.

 

One Bills Drive conscientiously decided to let their starting QB, RG, and LG walk.

 

So now you have TJax, a 3rd string QB on any NFL roster, Jason Campbell the best FA QB (well probably second best to Fitz (and that is a sad FA class)) at QB. Meaning if you draft anyone with a pulse they will win the starting QB job.

 

At the same time as going with a rookie QB that needs to get acclimated to the speed of the NFL you let your Top10 O-Line fall apart.(really Top 3 but I don't feel like arguing that point, you can't really say the Bills O-Line in 2012 would be ranked under 10 unless you're a troll)

 

Hopefully AJ McCarren can translate to a #1 overall pick in 2014 because we're seriously headed that way. Like seriously the 2013 schedule is tough and the Bills can't beat the Jests so 4 wins would be an accomplishment at this pace.

 

Awesome plan One Bills Drive.

 

Wow, usually "there is always next year" starts in Nov not March. This is really really really depressing.

 

getting a top QB next year is worth another bad year. We've been through so many what's one more.

 

Turn the corner from constant 6-10 to 2-14?

 

 

Guards are more important than Tackles in today's NFL.

 

 

BS

 

I think McCarron will be joined by Bridgewater, and Manziel in the Top 10 of 2014...Assuming they all come out of course...

 

and Blake Bortles and Casey Pachall if he returns to form after rehab.

 

McCarron isn't a top pick in the draft. He's another McElroy from where I sit. A mid-late round guy. He has no special

physical characteristic. He's not big, exceptionally mobile or have a big arm. There's no "it" to him. Could change this

season, but right now, he's a good college QB who plays for a historically good program. That's why he'll get any

mention of being a top QB.

 

 

kind of like Tom Brady but with a hotter significant other.

[Bufcomments]

This might be a good example as to why the Bills should draft Alabama G Chance Warmack with that #8 pick. A guy who could be a perennial pro bowler.

 

Levitre was average at best and looked good because he played next to a guy who should have been named to the pro bowl. That is if he wasn't injured at the end of the last two seasons.

If they had keep Fitz, than yea...pick the once in a generation guard. So since fitz is out.. amen

 

They have to pick a QB first round now.....whoever they like the most pull the trigger because he might not be there in the 2nd.

 

If they are smart that is.

[Prickly Pete]

If they had keep Fitz, than yea...pick the once in a generation guard. So since fitz is out.. amen

 

They have to pick a QB first round now.....whoever they like the most pull the trigger because he might not be there in the 2nd.

 

If they are smart that is.

 

That blue helmet looks cool!

[KRT88]

If you had offered him a contract before this past season, say something in the range of 5 years 30/33 million, you could have gotten him at a big savings. However, instead the Bills braintrust, and that's giving way too much credit, wait and lose out best and most consistent O-linemen for nothing.

 

makes no sense to have no QB, no WR and no O-line. hey but we have two good RB.

 

oh yah, we have 6 draft picks and our QB wasn't active for one game last season.

 

 

shoot me now! 2-14 here we come!

[Keukasmallies]

If you're going to start a rookie QB in 2013 . . . first you have to have one on the roster.

[1B4IDie]

 

Agreed....that's why I put it in brackets. It wasn't pertinent to the issue at hand......and in hindsight, I shouldn't have mentioned it as it obviously detracted from the point too much....as shown by you addressing that one line rather than the point that was being made.

 

 

 

 

We need a WR. Do we have room under the cap to sign one for 13m/year(top 3 contract)?

Yes we do.

Would it be sound cap management to do so in the current situation we are in?

No it wouldn't.

Similar situation with OG. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture of what is best for the team as a whole.

 

All of this is a matter of where the money is best spent. I personally would have been ecstatic if we managed to afford to re-sign Levitre.....brought in a #2 WR, a TE & 2 LBs. That would be awesome. You seem to think however that there is only one strategy to running a team & that if the team doesn't follow your thoughts.......then they are clueless and without a plan.

I do not believe there is one strategy and do not believe they are clueless if they do not follow my line of thinking.

I am looking at the bigger picture and creating a sound strategy. One where you re-sign key players that will have an even greater value when your next step is obvious.

You keep talking in hypetheticals. The FAs are known. The signing period is now.

Who is this Top3 WR you're talking about? Who are these #2WR,TE and 2LBs?

I do think you are clueless if you think the Bills are saving money so they can sign a Top3WR, #2WR, TE and 2 starting LBs in FA in 2013.

Like every year the 2013 Buffalo Bills will be well under the cap and have room to spare for an extra couple Mil for one of the best guards in the league.

Instead it is the same old bad Bills. Go cheap, react at the last minute, and hope and pray you strike lightning in the draft.

Which is the samething as not having a strategy or a plan.

[Dibs]

I do not believe there is one strategy and do not believe they are clueless if they do not follow my line of thinking.

I am looking at the bigger picture and creating a sound strategy. One where you re-sign key players that will have an even greater value when your next step is obvious.

You keep talking in hypetheticals. The FAs are known. The signing period is now.

Who is this Top3 WR you're talking about? Who are these #2WR,TE and 2LBs?

I do think you are clueless if you think the Bills are saving money so they can sign a Top3WR, #2WR, TE and 2 starting LBs in FA in 2013.

Like every year the 2013 Buffalo Bills will be well under the cap and have room to spare for an extra couple Mil for one of the best guards in the league.

Instead it is the same old bad Bills. Go cheap, react at the last minute, and hope and pray you strike lightning in the draft.

Which is the samething as not having a strategy or a plan.

:huh:

I've always thought that I had above average communication skills......apparently my skills are well below par as you seemed to miss every point I made.....and somehow assumed I was saying things that I wasn't.

 

That's cool....if you can be bothered....when you calm down a bit....re-read our conversation, particularly my responses.

Here's a few tips....

 

The 2WRs, TE & 2LBs are holes on the roster that we need to fill.

 

The Top3 WR was in reference to showing that we "can" sign a top player(ala Levitre) under the cap.....but we then won't be able to sign the 2WRs, TE & 2LBs that we need.

 

I won't go on.....good luck to you sir.

[1B4IDie]

 

:huh:

I've always thought that I had above average communication skills......apparently my skills are well below par as you seemed to miss every point I made.....and somehow assumed I was saying things that I wasn't.

 

That's cool....if you can be bothered....when you calm down a bit....re-read our conversation, particularly my responses.

Here's a few tips....

 

The 2WRs, TE & 2LBs are holes on the roster that we need to fill.

 

The Top3 WR was in reference to showing that we "can" sign a top player(ala Levitre) under the cap.....but we then won't be able to sign the 2WRs, TE & 2LBs that we need.

 

I won't go on.....good luck to you sir.

I understand completely and I am calm.

You value having the ability to sign hypothetical FAs over re-signing actual proven performers.

Excellent.

None the less the Bills are not showing any type of long term or short term strategy. Hope is not a strategy. Hoping to sign hypothetical free agents is not strategy.