Jim in Anchorage Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The only people that still harp on the stale "true 3-4 NT" argument are the ones that don't understand the difference between 2-gap /1-gap schemes. Almost nobody plays the zero technique anymore for a reason. Few of todays players can do it and stay healthy enough to make it to a proper FA contract while taking on a double teams 50 to 60 times a game. These guys are too rare to base a scheme around unless you get really lucky in the draft. Where are these magical behemoths to man the middle against todays monster O-lines? I can think of one in NE. But really I don't think we have one. Which is why finely getting a imaginative DC is my bright spot for the Bills.
KeisterHollow Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The only people that still harp on the stale "true 3-4 NT" argument are the ones that don't understand the difference between 2-gap /1-gap schemes. Almost nobody plays the zero technique anymore for a reason. Few of todays players can do it and stay healthy enough to make it to a proper FA contract while taking on a double teams 50 to 60 times a game. These guys are too rare to base a scheme around unless you get really lucky in the draft. Where are these magical behemoths to man the middle against todays monster O-lines? The reason I brought it up is because IF Buffalo is planning on playing a lot of traditional 3-4, maybe someone like Lutulelei in the draft would be a consideration? He's a lot like a Ngata - if we think we're missing that guy, perhaps we spend an early round pick on one of the talented big men in this draft? I would prefer we get a guy like Ansah or Jordan, one of the freakish pass rushers - there are a lot in this draft, really - it's just a mystery, really, what shape this roster will take in the next two months!
Green Lightning Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The DL is puzzlement to be sure. Hate to say it, but I expect zero out of KW....in fact I think he's done. Both achilles reattached..not seeing any explosion off the line that was his game. Plus, as noted, he really has no place in a 3-4.
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The only people that still harp on the stale "true 3-4 NT" argument are the ones that don't understand the difference between 2-gap /1-gap schemes. Almost nobody plays the zero technique anymore for a reason. Few of todays players can do it and stay healthy enough to make it to a proper FA contract while taking on a double teams 50 to 60 times a game. These guys are too rare to base a scheme around unless you get really lucky in the draft. Where are these magical behemoths to man the middle against todays monster O-lines? I get it, and until we know what our defense will look like its impossible to say whether or not our DC will want one. I seem to remember the jets line being anchored by big guys like kris Jenkins and Sione pouha not long ago. The ravens also having some big old boys in the middle too along the way. Our coach might want some beef which would often slide guys like carrington and Williams to end. As others have mentioned dareus played well at nt, but I'm not sure that's his best spot either.
Rob's House Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 I wouldn't mind seeing Kwame Geathers from GA in the late rounds (most have him projected in rds 5-6). He's a bit raw, but he's pretty strong, weighs in around 355 lbs, and looked good in the GA games I've seen.
uncle flap Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 For those of you wondering what the D will look like schematically, here's a great article breaking down what Pettine likes to run: http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/2013/02/breaking-down-mike-pettine-part-2/ Obviously, there's no way to know how much will be carried over to the Bills, but at least we get a glimpse into his tendencies. I agree that DT isn't a big need. Just bc they seemingly will be lining up w 2 and 3 DL most of the doesn't mean they have to be space eaters. Pettine runs agressive, attacking formations. I think getting penetration would be a higher priority than simply tying up the OL.
White Linen Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The only people that still harp on the stale "true 3-4 NT" argument are the ones that don't understand the difference between 2-gap /1-gap schemes. Almost nobody plays the zero technique anymore for a reason. Few of todays players can do it and stay healthy enough to make it to a proper FA contract while taking on a double teams 50 to 60 times a game. These guys are too rare to base a scheme around unless you get really lucky in the draft. Where are these magical behemoths to man the middle against todays monster O-lines? I'm not an expert and only have basic understandings of defenses from reading. Are you saying there is absolutely no reason to be concerned about your NT situation when switching from a 4-3 to 3-4 because you just change gap schemes?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 I think getting penetration would be a higher priority than simply tying up the OL. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Rockinon Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The DL is puzzlement to be sure. Hate to say it, but I expect zero out of KW....in fact I think he's done. Both achilles reattached..not seeing any explosion off the line that was his game. Plus, as noted, he really has no place in a 3-4. It wasn't an achilles injury. It was bone spurs. Very painful, but a very minor surgery to clean them up. Kyle will definitely be back with a vengeance.
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 It wasn't an achilles injury. It was bone spurs. Very painful, but a very minor surgery to clean them up. Kyle will definitely be back with a vengeance. Might be semantics but weren't these spurs cutting into his Achilles causing damage? Or am I remembering wrong?
Dragonborn10 Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 The only people that still harp on the stale "true 3-4 NT" argument are the ones that don't understand the difference between 2-gap /1-gap schemes. Almost nobody plays the zero technique anymore for a reason. Few of todays players can do it and stay healthy enough to make it to a proper FA contract while taking on a double teams 50 to 60 times a game. These guys are too rare to base a scheme around unless you get really lucky in the draft. Where are these magical behemoths to man the middle against todays monster O-lines? In Boston and we play them twice a year. But I agree. Troupe will be the "true NT". KW will play the NT most of the time with Dareus moved to DE.
uncle flap Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 Not that there's anything wrong with that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34
Magox Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 This is a decent recap of available FAs, but I'm surprised that it mentions twice that the Bills do not have a need at DT. IMO that isn't coming from Gaughan, it's coming from the Bills and he's repeating what he's been told. Thoughts? I know what you're getting at, neither Dareus or Kyle are your pro typical nose tackles, so that is a concern, however there are teams that have excelled with smaller NT's and it will be incumbent of Pettite to put these guys in a position to consistently play to their strengths.
Dorkington Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 I think we are relatively OK at DT. We could use a fourth guy. That being said, we honestly have holes at *every* position on our team, either starting or quality depth. There's no way we fill all of them this year (and realistically we won't until we get a FO makeover).
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 We could use a fourth guy. How about that guy Pete Best?
Rockinon Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Might be semantics but weren't these spurs cutting into his Achilles causing damage? Or am I remembering wrong? He had a successful surgery on one foot and looked great until his other foot began giving him trouble. He'll be back to form soon enough. I didn't mention this before, but it just seems to me you are overly keen on getting a NT for a 3-4 when we have two very good 4-3 defensive tackles. What are you going to do? Put two of our best big bodies on the bench so you can play a NT? We also know that Kyle and Marcel can play nose. That doesn't mean that they will play those positions exclusively. I tend to think the formation will be changed up a lot. Also, a particular formation doesn't necessarily mean the DL will attack in one specific way. The guys will be doing different stunts to throw off the opposing offense. We have some very good DLmen why try to force them into a traditional 3-4 look? Why not let these guys do what they do best....penetrate to the second level instead of just clog up space? In Boston and we play them twice a year. But I agree. Troupe will be the "true NT". KW will play the NT most of the time with Dareus moved to DE. I thought I read somewhere that one of the coaches thought Dareus can play NT too. Edited March 10, 2013 by Rockinon
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) He had a successful surgery on one foot and looked great until his other foot began giving him trouble. He'll be back to form soon enough. I didn't mention this before, but it just seems to me you are overly keen on getting a NT for a 3-4 when we have two very good 4-3 defensive tackles. What are you going to do? Put two of our best big bodies on the bench so you can play a NT? We also know that Kyle and Marcel can play nose. That doesn't mean that they will play those positions exclusively. I tend to think the formation will be changed up a lot. Also, a particular formation doesn't necessarily mean the DL will attack in one specific way. The guys will be doing different stunts to throw off the opposing offense. We have some very good DLmen why try to force them into a traditional 3-4 look? Why not let these guys do what they do best....penetrate to the second level instead of just clog up space? I thought I read somewhere that one of the coaches thought Dareus can play NT too. Ill ramble a bit..... But.... I'm not aggressively going for that guy but noting that we likely head that direction at some point. Our previous 34 with similar personnel lacked that presence. Sure we have good 43 tackles but we've yet again (it looks like atleast) switched schemes. Unless we stumbled onto pettines magic personnel grouping to a hybrid 34/43 cover 2 zone press man coverage. It gives us 3 options 1) DC can design around our mish mash of talent acquired while switching back and forth between schemes annually. 2) force square pegs in round holes 3) go get round pegs to fit in round holes It'll likely be a combo of the three in this first year. NT DE and OLB will be tough fills potentially. Those 5 around the line players will likely be filled by Anderson (olb), carrington, dareus, k Williams, and m Williams (olb) if I had to guess. Now a lot of those guys are flexible talents... But I'm also hesitant flipping back and just saying "meh, the DC will make it happen" Additionally im trying to be patient - Until they line up for a game, I'm not going to assume to know the plan, just taking high level guesses - for all I know Mario becomes a 34 de, Kyle might be the tackle, etc.... I am comfortable saying for those 5 spots plus depth we need more players, and those players we go get, which may include an NT very possibly, should fit the long term designs of pettines defense. But again ill say, Who knows, pettine has only run a defense under Rex's supervision dating back to coaching high school so we won't know what he truly wants until they lineup on a Sunday, and even then it might just be a transitionary step towards an end goal. Edited March 10, 2013 by NoSaint
Rockinon Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) The thing that strikes me most about Pettine/Ryan defenses is not that they have been 3-4 alignments, which if you look closer there are a number of different looks they have used. What stands out is that they actually send rushers from virtually any position on the field. They attempt to disguise where a blitz may come from by mixing up with different looks. The need for a dominant NT, at least in my opinion is way over rated. You need a strong defensive line, to keep teams from running all over you but the league is very pass happy and bringing heat on the QB is a bigger priority. I'm sure you have heard the interviews of Pettine. He stressed that the defense will be an attacking. Not having a traditional big NT isn't going to prevent that from happening. I guess what i am thinking is that we have some very good DL personnel. Why reinvent the wheel? I think a couple of good LBs will fix a lot of problems on this team. More than NT. Marcel can play NT. Kyle can play NT. And if Troupe finally comes back healthy, he can too. I just don't see bringing in another one. Edited March 10, 2013 by Rockinon
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 the league is very pass happy and bringing heat on the QB is a bigger priority. Than stopping the run? Absolutely. And this is the exact reason why it's absurd to want to draft guys like Ogletree and Te'o ahead of guys like Jordan or Ansah, or a guy like Warmack ahead of one of the top offensive tackles. First and foremost, defenses have to be able to pressure the quarterback and cover the receivers.
RealityCheck Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 I am not against getting a true NT at all. Getting a good one is the problem. Any defense would benefit from a stud NT lined up over the center. The problem is getting someone who can actually do that kind of dirty work, will want to keep doing it, and then stay healthy enough to impact the entire season. It's funny how Wilfork pops up in the responses when there is no chance of us getting him. He also represents a truly rare player. You don't design a scheme around a guy like that unless he is already on your roster. Wilfork is rarely used as a 2-gapper anymore and has been used at end on occasion when the Pats went into a 3 man front. Sure, you can plug any number of big DTs into the zero, but what good is it if they aren't good at it. I hope we draft a good DT myself, but to assume that guy is going to succeed as a true 2-gap NT is asking for trouble. Parcells had his planet theory about NTs, and those guys are even more rare today.
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