McKelvin re-signed

[Dibs]

You are missing the point as to why the Bills have a tendency to over draft CBs. They have a tendency to draft them high and then release them often due to contract reasons. Clement, Winfield Whitner, Greer etc. were shuffled off not so much for talent reasons but primarily for $$$$$ reasons. In a cap system you can't keep all your quality players when they enter the market. The Bills to a greater extent than most teams had a business model that promoted this replacing of players with cheaper players This cycle of acquire and replace has hurt us in addressing other positions.

 

I was very much in accord with the McKelvin signing because it allows the front office to focus on other positions in the draft and free agency.

 

I wasn't missing the point at all.

Everything you just stated I totally agree with and was well aware of it prior.

 

I was responding to your statement of....

".......It is ironic that you harshly criticize this goofy franchise for over drafting DBs while the most successful franchise in this generation, the Pats, is a franchise that freguently drafts DBs."

 

It was a flippant statement that misrepresented the reality of the situation. As I showed, the Bills used far higher draft stock for DBs & at a much regular rate than the Patriots did.

[DrDawkinstein]

So ok. 5 mil a year for a below average CB is OK but 6-7 mil a year for a great Safety or G is too much?

 

This is why the Bills stink. They make McKelvin a priority when any ole' FA CB could not cover his WR just as poorly. I get he is a good return man but come on! Bryd and Levitre should have been much much much bigger priorities.

 

$6-7mil a year is exactly what we committed to pay Byrd with the Franchise tag, and Im willing to bet we're offering an even better long term deal. The player and his agent have to be willing to work with the team as well. Two way street.

 

And I have to believe that if $6-7mil would get the Levitre deal done, it would have happened by now. Levitre and his agent have already said they want to test the market, and one can assume that means they are looking for a team that is willing to pay $8-10mil/year. A bit different than your numbers.

[dave mcbride]

 

I wasn't missing the point at all.

Everything you just stated I totally agree with and was well aware of it prior.

 

I was responding to your statement of....

".......It is ironic that you harshly criticize this goofy franchise for over drafting DBs while the most successful franchise in this generation, the Pats, is a franchise that freguently drafts DBs."

 

It was a flippant statement that misrepresented the reality of the situation. As I showed, the Bills used far higher draft stock for DBs & at a much regular rate than the Patriots did.

 

The two teams have both drafted 7, with the Bills taking 4 first rounders and the Pats 3. They're pretty similar - about as similar as it gets, in fact, when you start looking at other teams. For obvious reasons, the Pats have had fewer top 15 selections than the Bills.

[Dibs]

The two teams have both drafted 7, with the Bills taking 4 first rounders and the Pats 3. They're pretty similar - about as similar as it gets, in fact, when you start looking at other teams. For obvious reasons, the Pats have had fewer top 15 selections than the Bills.

 

Did you see the earlier post?

 

Of the Bills 7 highest valued picks......we picked DB 3 times.....43%

Of the Patriots 7 highest valued picks......they picked DB 0 times.....0%

[dave mcbride]

Did you see the earlier post?

 

Of the Bills 7 highest valued picks......we picked DB 3 times.....43%

Of the Patriots 7 highest valued picks......they picked DB 0 times.....0%

I'm not comparing the Bills to the Pats alone; I'm looking at all of the other teams as well (see above). They're reasonably similar.

[Dibs]

I'm not comparing the Bills to the Pats alone; I'm looking at all of the other teams as well (see above). They're reasonably similar.

 

Unless you do some sort of breakdown for where the DBs were selected, there is no real way of telling if a team is spending a lot of their high 1st round picks on DBs.....or aren't.

 

As it turns out, the study I did showed a general similarity with all groups(SB, Average & Dumbasses) in the number of DBs selected in the 1st round......just as your list above showed.

 

 

I wasn't however making any base or general points......I was merely addressing the specific point that JohnC made about the Patriots & Bills DB drafting where he implied that they both drafted similarly. It was disingenuous to state it as such, for as they both may have drafted DBs in similar quantity, the Bills allocated a far greater amount of their higher draft picks to the DB position than the Patriots did.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Dibs

[4BillsintheBurgh]

It is perhaps where the DBs are drafted that makes the bigger difference.

 

Draft picks within the top 2 rounds since 2000....DBs in red.

 

Bills:

3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 26, 26, 28, 34, 34, 36, 41, 41, 41, 42, 46, 48, 51, 55, 58, 58, 61

 

Patriots:

6, 10, 13, 17, 21, 21, 21, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32, 32, 33, 34, 36, 36, 40, 41, 42, 45, 46, 48, 48, 53, 56, 58, 62, 62, 63, 65

 

 

Both teams drafted 7 DBs in the first 2 rounds over the 13 years.

Inside top 10...

Bills 3 of 9 (33%)

Patriots 0 of 2 (0%)

 

Inside top 15...

Bills 4 of 10 (40%)

Patriots 0 of 3 (0%)

 

Inside top 21...

Bills 4 of 10 (40%)

Patriots 0 of 8 (0%)

 

 

Comparing the two team's DB selections actually backs up Bill's views.

Just one thing about comparing the two teams is that the Pats* have not had to face a good qb in order to win the division (since ???) and therefore I don't think they needed to worry about db as much.

 

I will also say about Lynch that, if I remember correctly, he did not show up for any volunteer OTA's. Not the impression you want to make with a new front office and coaching staff. I've heard via interviews from of a lot of the guys that have resigned with the Bills about how they believe in what Buddy is trying to do. When you don't show up to learn the offense I think you're showing you don't care and since the new OBD had no ties to him they didn't seem too broken up about it. Regardless of talent.

[JohnC]

It was a flippant statement that misrepresented the reality of the situation. As I showed, the Bills used far higher draft stock for DBs & at a much regular rate than the Patriots did.

 

As you demonstrated the "flippant" remark regarding the Pats is inaccurate. But my central point is that the Bills primary problem has more to do with player evaluations in general and with an owner's business model in which players who were drafted and filled positions (in this particular discussion CBs) were let go for mostly contract reasons rather than performance reasons. . That is a central factor in having to go back into the draft pool for the same position.

 

I don't have the inclination and time to review the respective drafts of the Pats and Bills. Could you check to see how many DBs each team has drafted in the first two or three rounds over the past five years?

Edited March 11, 2013 by JohnC

[4BillsintheBurgh]

As you demonstrated the "flippant" remark regarding the Pats is inaccurate. But my central point is that the Bills primary problem has more to do with player evaluations in general and with an owner's business model in which players who were drafted and filled positions (in this particular discussion CBs) were let go for mostly contract reasons rather than performance reasons. . That is a central factor in having to go back into the draft pool for the same position.

To that point, I think having (and keeping) a franchise qb would mean spending a lot more money. Would season ticket holders pay more money for the care and feeding of a franchise qb? Seems like Ralph has said no they won't for most of his ownership. Seems like Brandon and Buddy are going to try and find out.

[Dibs]

As you demonstrated the "flippant" remark regarding the Pats is inaccurate. But my central point is that the Bills primary problem has more to do with player evaluations in general and with an owner's business model in which players who were drafted and filled positions (in this particular discussion CBs) were let go for mostly contract reasons rather than performance reasons. . That is a central factor in having to go back into the draft pool for the same position.

 

I totally agree with your central point.

In fact, it seems odd to me that the people who strongly object to the high and constant drafting of DBs, also seem to strongly object to paying veteran players salaries commensurate to a solid/good starters going rate. It seems that some people simply don't want decent DBs on the roster at all.

[JohnC]

To that point, I think having (and keeping) a franchise qb would mean spending a lot more money. Would season ticket holders pay more money for the care and feeding of a franchise qb? Seems like Ralph has said no they won't for most of his ownership. Seems like Brandon and Buddy are going to try and find out.

 

The cap rules have changed with the new CBA. Teams will be required to spend up to 90% of the cap. So the issue becomes how do you apportion the money than how much you spend overall because the spending level is in general similar for all teams.

 

Before you have to contend with the issue of spending a large amount of money on a franchise qb you have to have a legitimate franchise qb. Because of the importance of the position teams will spend a disproportionate amount of money for a top tier qb. It is absolutely essential for the success of a team. A team can have flaws on both sides of the ball and stll win if they have a high quality qb.

 

The owner is out of the picture on how this franchise operates. I get the sense that Nix, Brandon and the coaching staff recognize the reality that has eluded this franchise for so long that you go nowhere without a good qb. I expect a qb to be drafted in the first or more likely second round of this draft.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The average: 5. So the Bills are above average.

 

The Bills are above average?

 

Hoorah!!!

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, It makes no sense to blame the most talented player and most impactful player on the roster for the embarrassing record of this inept organization.

 

John, I must stop you right there. Dialogue with you is actually great, and I will take responsibility that I am unble to get my point across. It must be true. I was accused of crusading by a few idiots on my last :Thoughts" post for what I DIDN'T SAY about Spiller. That didn't bother me. What DID was that a few good posters joined with them.

Now, let me make this clear:

1) I DO NOT blame Spiller for the shape of this franchise.

2) i have NO ISSUES with Spiller as a player or a person. I DID admittedly have issues such as these with Whitner.

 

In 2011, you and I coveted different qbs. You liked Dalton; I liked Mallett. Nix skipped over them and Kaep to draft Aaron Williams. THIS is where I place bame. Levy/Jauron in 2006 actually gave up an early 3rd round pick to draft 4 players who sucked and 3 of them were defensive backs.THIS TOO is where I place the blame.

 

As much as you blast Nix, I really think that you are giving him undeserved credit for drafting Spiller. The team has been doing the same thing over and over, and losing games. Spiller is very good. The question remains whether or not he was a good pick.

Meanwhile, the Bills W/L record sucks.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Bill from NYC

[3rdand12]

 

When it was said that he was going to be a starter, my question was how does Nix know? Free agency hasn't come, the draft, mini camp, training camp, etc. On top of that Marrone is the coach. Shouldn't he be choosing his starters? So what if we pay Mckelvin a bunch of $ and he doesn't beat( say an undrafted) for the starting position? We will be paying him for just returning the ball. Just seems a little crazy at the moment. I will wait for contract details. This feels like Brad Smith all over again.

Maybe the coaches have watched enough tape or coached/played against him. I mean that is kinda their job. They must see something that they think they can coach up.

Nix is not running amok i dont guess and he's not gonna make that call. He is going to do the negotiating with others i would imagine with coaches input.

 

Also the details of the contract will be incentive laden like we did with Mcgee probably.

One of you gentlemen mentioned and idea i think was close to the mark.

Pettine will decide where and how he plays. and Henderson , i think will be coaching them.

Not Catavalos (sp)?} anymore. Every coach was swapped out we know but forget how dramtic that is. We have next to nothing solid to base our conjecture upon this group.

I'm going to stand on the fence about these fellas till i see them field the team in week one.

I still gots my opinions though.

[BADOLBILZ]

I like how you argue every point in a vacuum, yet use completely separate factors to argue your point. Excellent strawman as well...

 

I'm not defending anything. Simply adding to the discussion that if you are talking about the Spiller pick, and the Lynch trade, you also have to include the choice to keep Freddy. And the fact that he and Lynch were the same type of RB.

 

Otherwise, the entire discussion looks like the one in this thread. Where someone brings up Point #1, and gets countered with completely separate Point #2, but then retorts with completely separate Point #3, and so on...

 

They all have to be factored in together.

 

The vacuum is the warroom at OBD. How many times have they assembled there for draft day and made head scratching decisions that turned out just as bad as they seemed they would?

 

And why it is.....in retrospect......that some fans want to say Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch are the same type of RB?

 

They aren't.

 

One is an outright banger and one is a smooth, shifty runner who is very fluid in the pass game as well. Fred is tough, but he isn't a wear-you down back. His gift is balance.

 

And yes, Spiller is faster than all of them. But the other two have all been big play guys as well. The "same type of rb" argument is GROSSLY overstated.

 

Like most of the Bills problems, the never-ending over-valuing of RB's just comes down to decisions gone wrong. They didn't need to draft McGahee, Lynch OR Spiller. Good RB's are a dime-a-dozen and when you keep spending all your VERY HARD EARNED(losing) chips on them you can EXPECT to end up short at more important positions.

[JohnC]

John, I must stop you right there. Dialogue with you is actually great, and I will take responsibility that I am unble to get my point across. It must be true. I was accused of crusading by a few idiots on my last :Thoughts" post for what I DIDN'T SAY about Spiller. That didn't bother me. What DID was that a few good posters joined with them.

Now, let me make this clear:

1) I DO NOT blame Spiller for the shape of this franchise.

2) i have NO ISSUES with Spiller as a player or a person. I DID admittedly have issues such as these with Whitner.

 

In 2011, you and I coveted different qbs. You liked Dalton; I liked Mallett. Nix skipped over them and Kaep to draft Aaron Williams. THIS is where I place bame. Levy/Jauron in 2006 actually gave up an early 3rd round pick to draft 4 players who sucked in 3 rounds. 3 of them were defensive backs.THIS TOO is where I place the blame.

 

As much as you blast Nix, I really think that you are giving him undeserved credit for drafting Spiller. The team has been doing the same thing over and over, and losing games. Spiller is very good. The question remains whether or not he was a good pick.

Meanwhile, the Bills W/L record sucks.

 

Bill, I'm not sure you know where I am coming from. The fundamental problem with this bizaare organization doesn't stem from individual player transactions. The fundamental problem is that weird Ralph Wilson hired incompetents to run his billion $$$$ business. He was nickle and diming his way in hiring mediocre front office people who regularly make milllion dollar decisons on players and their contracts. How much sense does that make?

 

How much is a GM in the caliber of Ozzie Newsome or Polian or Colbert or Jerry Reese or Dimitroff worth? Compare how they run their organizations to this clown operation. There was llittle effort by the odd owner to go outside of his miniscule circle to hire quality people. The hiring of Levy as a GM was ludicrous. That was followed by putting his marketing specialist at the head of the football operation. Again ludicrous. Then that was followed by old country boy Nix who has proven to be just as clueless.

 

Brandon has recently been anoited by the fading owner to preside over the franchise. I did have some hope that there would be a major change for the good. So what is the first thing he does? He inexplicably retains the same GM who has bungled his way through three years of getting nowhere. Another way at looking at it is that the same person who has screwed this franchise with his personnel judgments is the same person being counted on to get us out of the mess that he created.

 

I want to correct you on my position on Dalton. I didn't covet him. Far from it. It is simply that I am fed up with bypassing qbs who are capable and staying with qbs on our roster who shouldn't even be in this league. Dalton is at best a solid qb. He is demonstrably better than the current erratic passer taking the snaps. Both Kaepernick and Russell Wilson, in my estimation, are capable of being dynamic players who Nix passed on for mediocre prospects.

 

Let me also clarify my position on Spiller. He is a dynamic player who never should have been selected by the Bills. Nix should have traded down, accumulated more picks, and add more talent to a team lacking talent. This incompetent GM didn't even entertain offers. He was proud of the fact that he ran up to the podium without considering better offers. Expecting someone with such a simpleton approach to act in a more strategic manner is expecting too much.

 

I've told you many times that the problem plaguing this franchise has little to do with the team and mostly to do with the organization. Until that issue is rectified the same cycle of foolishness will continue to repeat itself, over and over again!

Edited March 12, 2013 by JohnC