Thurmal34 Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 if you don't have a top QB, you typically won't be going very far into the playoffs. And yet people here still complain the Bills didn't draft Dalton.
Dean Cain Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 No one in their right mind thought at the 2000 NFL combine that Tom Brady would have been a player.
Dibs Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 They all go hand-in-hand ! You seem very convinced about that.
Prickly Pete Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) You can have as many good coaching staffs, coordinators, QB coaches, lines, WRs, RBs, TEs etc as you want........if you don't have a top QB, you typically won't be going very far into the playoffs. Yep. The whole premise of this question is way off, too. How about "How different would this organization look if it had a great QB for the last 8 years?" Coaches (head coaches, position coaches, etc.) don't want to come to a team that doesn't have a good QB. Free agents don't want to come to a team that doesn't have a good Qb. On and on....the entire complexion of the team would probably be different. Rookies coming in would likely have a different attitude if their first pro experience was with a team that was on track. No doubt that losing is contagious. How successful are the Detroit Lions at luring coaches, players, front office people? Who would YOU rather work for, the Pittsburgh Steelers, NY Giants, Denver Broncos....or the Lions? There are just so many variables. Edited March 7, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
Dibs Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Yep. The whole premise of this question is way off. How about "How different would this organization look if it had a good QB for the last 8 years?" Coaches (head coaches, position coaches, etc.) don't want to come to a team that doesn't have a good QB. Free agents don't want to come to a team that doesn't have a good Qb. On and on....the entire complexion of the team would probably be different. Rookies coming in would likely have a different attitude if their first pro experience was with a team that was on track. No doubt that losing is contagious. There are just so many variables. I actually tried to have a look at the Super Bowl winning HC records they had without their Star QB. It was very difficult as often the first thing a new HC does is find their star QB. Here is the list of SB winning HC for the last 10 years. John Harbaugh: Flacco drafted 1st year.....performed well 1st year. Tom Coughlin: Eli Manning drafted 1st year....performed poorly 1st year(6-10).....performed well 2nd year. Mike McCarthy: Favre in 1st 2 seasons.....Rodgers thereafter. Sean Payton: Brees in 1st year. Mike Tomlin: Big Ben already there. Tony Dungy: 76% win record with P. Manning....56% win record without star QB. Bill Cowher: 73% win record with Big Ben....56% win record without star QB. Bill Belichick: 77% win record with Brady....45% win record without star QB.
Prickly Pete Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I actually tried to have a look at the Super Bowl winning HC records they had without their Star QB. It was very difficult as often the first thing a new HC does is find their star QB. Here is the list of SB winning HC for the last 10 years. John Harbaugh: Flacco drafted 1st year.....performed well 1st year. Tom Coughlin: Eli Manning drafted 1st year....performed poorly 1st year(6-10).....performed well 2nd year. Mike McCarthy: Favre in 1st 2 seasons.....Rodgers thereafter. Sean Payton: Brees in 1st year. Mike Tomlin: Big Ben already there. Tony Dungy: 76% win record with P. Manning....56% win record without star QB. Bill Cowher: 73% win record with Big Ben....56% win record without star QB. Bill Belichick: 77% win record with Brady....45% win record without star QB. Honestly, I wouldn't care if they only drafted Qb's every year, and just tried to fill the rest of their needs with free agents, and undrafted guys. It's getting ridiculous, they have basically gone 2 decades without competing.
ganesh Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I actually tried to have a look at the Super Bowl winning HC records they had without their Star QB. It was very difficult as often the first thing a new HC does is find their star QB. Here is the list of SB winning HC for the last 10 years. John Harbaugh: Flacco drafted 1st year.....performed well 1st year. Tom Coughlin: Eli Manning drafted 1st year....performed poorly 1st year(6-10).....performed well 2nd year. Mike McCarthy: Favre in 1st 2 seasons.....Rodgers thereafter. Sean Payton: Brees in 1st year. Mike Tomlin: Big Ben already there. Tony Dungy: 76% win record with P. Manning....56% win record without star QB. Bill Cowher: 73% win record with Big Ben....56% win record without star QB. Bill Belichick: 77% win record with Brady....45% win record without star QB. Dibs, The proof is in the pudding...and you just proved my theory that they go hand-in-hand (Coaching + Elite QB)
Dibs Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Dibs, The proof is in the pudding...and you just proved my theory that they go hand-in-hand (Coaching + Elite QB) When you say "Coaching + Elite QB", I assume you don't just mean having a coach....because every team has a coach & therefore has coaching. I figure you must mean "good coach"....or "decent coach"? All teams go through ebbs and flows.....better years and worse years. Relating things back to the thread premise.....how many games would the Bills have won last year if we had a Brady/Rodgers/Big Ben type QB? We won 6 with a horrid 4th quarter QB, terrible coaching, a pathetic defense & an inordinate number of injuries. With all that against us we likely would have won 9+ games with an Elite QB instead of Fitz. How many games would we have won with a better defense and fewer injuries? 12? 13? Would that make Chan a good coach? A decent(not good) Coach that has an Elite QB, is regularly in the running for the SB(depending on standard ebb & flow). A good Coach that doesn't have an Elite QB, is regularly subject to the standard ebb & flow....with virtually no chance of the SB. I'm going to assume you mean "decent" coach as it surely can't be a massive coincidence that all of the Elite QBs happen to have good coaches as well. Finding a decent coach(neither great, nor bad) is not as hard as us Bills fans would think.
auburnbillsbacker Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I can't believe we passed on Ben, oh wait we didn't. We tried to trade up to get him but the Jaguars asked for the moon. I wish we offered the moon, but oh well. I still can't believe the one year the steelers were worse than the bills Big Ben was sitting there for them.. Or the one year the colts were bad Luck was available.
ganesh Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 When you say "Coaching + Elite QB", I assume you don't just mean having a coach....because every team has a coach & therefore has coaching. I figure you must mean "good coach"....or "decent coach"? All teams go through ebbs and flows.....better years and worse years. Relating things back to the thread premise.....how many games would the Bills have won last year if we had a Brady/Rodgers/Big Ben type QB? We won 6 with a horrid 4th quarter QB, terrible coaching, a pathetic defense & an inordinate number of injuries. With all that against us we likely would have won 9+ games with an Elite QB instead of Fitz. How many games would we have won with a better defense and fewer injuries? 12? 13? Would that make Chan a good coach? A decent(not good) Coach that has an Elite QB, is regularly in the running for the SB(depending on standard ebb & flow). A good Coach that doesn't have an Elite QB, is regularly subject to the standard ebb & flow....with virtually no chance of the SB. I'm going to assume you mean "decent" coach as it surely can't be a massive coincidence that all of the Elite QBs happen to have good coaches as well. Finding a decent coach(neither great, nor bad) is not as hard as us Bills fans would think. Yup... A decent coach that is not over his head with a Elite QB will always be in the running for the championship.....However, I don't know if the Bills had a "decent coaching staff" last year...The coaching staff with their own play calling probably ruined an equal number of games as much as the pathetic QB play from Fitzpatrick. Some good examples are Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, Wisenhunt, Andy Reid are all decent coaches who can compete if they have the right QB. However, I doubt Gailey and his coaching staff could have done any better with a better QB.
JPS Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Yup... A decent coach that is not over his head with a Elite QB will always be in the running for the championship.....However, I don't know if the Bills had a "decent coaching staff" last year...The coaching staff with their own play calling probably ruined an equal number of games as much as the pathetic QB play from Fitzpatrick. Some good examples are Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, Wisenhunt, Andy Reid are all decent coaches who can compete if they have the right QB. However, I doubt Gailey and his coaching staff could have done any better with a better QB. There's no such thing as a decent coach with a great QB. The great QB even makes the waterboy better. Again, OBD picked a FINE year to decide to find a great QB.
ganesh Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 There's no such thing as a decent coach with a great QB. The great QB even makes the waterboy better. Again, OBD picked a FINE year to decide to find a great QB. I disagree. Even with Peyton Manning, Dungy was able to win just one SB against a weak Chicago team. Even Bill Cowher is a little overrated. He could win a SB only after having an elite QB who did not make mistakes and played like a champion in those playoff games.
T master Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I agree wit you I think 2 QB's that we took JP & Trent could have been better QB's had they not had to go through what they did while here in B/lo. JP had what 3 different OC's while here, not to mention that every time the guy made a few bad throws they were benching him & then they'd put him back in, that for sure does nothing for a young QB's confidence !! Then Trent just didn't have a O line to keep him upright so he had to get rid of the ball & even when he did he still got tagged just about every time. JP had a gun & Trent although not as strong of a arm as JP got the monicker Captain check down & was ragged on which the fans here are stone cold & have no common sense when it comes to being rational about situations such as either of these payers were in while here. All QB's or most any players in bills fans eyes are to be Superman & carry the team to prominence in the NFL !! That's why JP, Trent, Kelsay, & others didn't have a chance when it came to public or fan opinion in a Bills uni ...
Rob's House Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I try not to think about what might have been. Cuz that was then, & we have taken different roads.
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Clay Matthews and Brian Cushing instead of Maybin. Kinda makes your stomach turn. CBF
Prickly Pete Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) I agree wit you I think 2 QB's that we took JP & Trent could have been better QB's had they not had to go through what they did while here in B/lo. JP had what 3 different OC's while here, not to mention that every time the guy made a few bad throws they were benching him & then they'd put him back in, that for sure does nothing for a young QB's confidence !! Then Trent just didn't have a O line to keep him upright so he had to get rid of the ball & even when he did he still got tagged just about every time. JP had a gun & Trent although not as strong of a arm as JP got the monicker Captain check down & was ragged on which the fans here are stone cold & have no common sense when it comes to being rational about situations such as either of these payers were in while here. All QB's or most any players in bills fans eyes are to be Superman & carry the team to prominence in the NFL !! That's why JP, Trent, Kelsay, & others didn't have a chance when it came to public or fan opinion in a Bills uni ... Nah. None of the Qb's the Bills had, went on to have success elsewhere. Please, the "Trent Edwards was good before the injury" claim is wrong. He was a 3rd round draft pick type talent, and it showed. At best he might have made a nice backup someday. Edited March 8, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
BobbyC81 Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 So were making the giant freaking assumption, that these guys would have had the exact same careers in Buffalo,they had with the teams that drafted them? Ok then................................................. Does anyone think Joe Montana would have had a HOF career if he'd been drafted by the Bills?
Prickly Pete Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Does anyone think Joe Montana would have had a HOF career if he'd been drafted by the Bills? Yeah. He probably wouldn't have had as great of a career, but he still would have been great.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Does anyone think Joe Montana would have had a HOF career if he'd been drafted by the Bills? Great point. A third rounder who was a bit undersized and had a very average arm? I'm sure both Montana and Young feel very fortunate to have been coached by Bill Walsh.
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