Magox Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 The people that were in charge of Bolivia and Venezuela were a bunch of corrupt mother!@#$ers. They sucked their countries dry of whatever resources they had, and spread it amongst themselves, which is why people were clamoring for change. But that isn't what this argument is about, what we're talking about is that Chavez himself is a corrupt son of a B word, and has done more harm for his country than good and apparently there are people on this board who believe that his policy prescriptions were both effective and appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 those slums were there before socialism. and they'll still exist after the next dictator dies as well. the next several in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 This post was filled with so much poppycock, Don't even know where to begin. So I'm going to dismantle this pile of garbage point by point. Really? huh, that's funny, considering that I am a citizen of Bolivia, not a resident but citizen. We receive more news coming out of Venezuela than any other country in Latin America, aside from Venezuela of course, and most of the news is sympathetic to Chavez, never mind the fact that the president of our country is Evo Morales. I'm not opposed to amending the constitution, I question his motive. He amended the constitution to end term limits, to gain full autonomy of the central bank, to facilitate the removal of supreme court justices and name his own election board. Why would he do this? I know why, and so do many other rational, knowledgeable thinking people, which is to retain control and power. No free thinking person would disagree that this was an utter and perverse abuse of power that was solely driven by his desire to retain control. I'd love to hear your spin as to his motives for this. bull ****! You are talking out of your ass again. http://www.reuters.c...146551720090801 Everyone that is from Latin America that has any interest in politics that isn't a kool aid drinking sympathizer of Chavez knows that he coerced, intimidated and jailed voices of opposition. When you intimidate the opposition, and effectively have state run media on your side, the ability to control message becomes much easier. You'd have to be a moron to deny that. Also, it is a well-known fact that Chavez and his family has been involved in charges of corruption and nepotism. You disputing that? http://www.guardian....rruption-claims And to this: Hold on, So their CEO Jerry Brewer is an exile? huh http://www.linkedin....er-sr/8/829/25b http://www.cjiausa.org/ The notion that they are a bunch of "exiles" is yet again, another fabrication on your part. Read more at http://www.inquisitr...6YsSVkuKz9T6.99 http://www.hrw.org/n...ritarian-legacy Now that we've established that you were wrong on just about every count and that you resort to fabrications to make your points, you have no more credibility on this subject, and most likely on anything else that you opine on. Also, I would suggest the next time you decide to engage in a conversation, that you make sure you come with facts, because if you don't someone like myself who is much more knowledgeable than you (in this particular topic) will come along and embarrass you. The only thing I got wrong was in assuming the esteemed Mr Brewer was an exile. Ok, he's not - I'll give you that. Doesn't change that the only source for this $2 billion claim that you presented in your post as fact seems to be this "CJIA" organisation" (every mention of the $2 billion I've found links back to the CJIA). Sorry, but I don't regard a single, unsubstantiated report by some obscure organisation as an open and shut case. My spin on his motives for constitional change? Sorry, no spin. I agree that the motivation was to retain power and I disagree with it. As the same time, I think calling it an "utter and perverse abuse of power" is going over the top. It wasn't as if the changes were made solely by presidential decree - they were voted on in a referendum and approved. The majority of the media in Venezuela is anti- rather than pro-Chavez. http://venezuelablog.tumblr.com/post/32935872987/media-bias-in-venezuela No, I don't dispute that there have been accusations of corruption and nepotism against Chavez, but what of it? The man had god-knows how many enemies and I have no way of knowing whether the charges are genuine or politically-motivated. I very much doubt that you do either. I'm not embarrassed in the slightest. In fact, I would be embarrassed if I had to resort to the rude, pompous and arrogant tone you used in this or later posts. You may imagine calling people twits, morons, accusing them of "talking out of their ass" ...etc helps make your point but I really doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I think there is a big difference between the point you are trying to make, and the reality of Mr Chavez and his rule over his country. By nationalizing at will, exerting control over all industries, centralizing power and controlling media, you ensure all citizens see a lack of oppotunity and less prosperity, while at the same time perpetual your personal power- people don't starve, they have a roof over their head, but in a resource rich country, should skimping by be enough? In Venezuela, I assume the very few enjoy the true spoils, those who are friends of the Dictator- not too mention said dictator was besties with Iran- !@#$ing Iran..... I believe your point it that helping the poor is a good thing, and that left policies can achieve that goal... I agree to a point, but you have to cite places like the UK and Canada to make a reasonble arguement. While they have much more socialist polices than the US, they also promote opportunity and bettering of one's position in life. I have friends in both places, one in Canada that could care less ho wmuch he pays in taxes, he loves the benefits, he loves his life. My other buddy lives in Manchester, is an unabashed Welfare State supporter and can't imagine it being any other way... both, whether they choose to or not have opportunities to better themselves, and that is the difference. The difference in opportunity. Dictators squash it, we promote it... that why people flock here, in lieu of our faults... I'm just down the road from your buddy in Manchester - I live in Liverpool. No, skimping is definitely not enough in a resource-rich country but it beats the hell out of starving. In 1999, 23% of the population were in extreme poverty. Not just poverty, but extreme poverty. That almost 1 in 4 were living in that condition in a country with one of the largest oil-reserves in the world is an absolute obscenity. Chavez was a reaction to what came before him. Despite his faults (and he had plenty) he did manage to improve the lives of those in most need. Moreover, he has changed the political landscape. No Venezuelan political party will ever again ignore the poor like they did in the past and that has to be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 The only thing I got wrong was in assuming the esteemed Mr Brewer was an exile. Ok, he's not - I'll give you that. Doesn't change that the only source for this $2 billion claim that you presented in your post as fact seems to be this "CJIA" organisation" (every mention of the $2 billion I've found links back to the CJIA). Sorry, but I don't regard a single, unsubstantiated report by some obscure organisation as an open and shut case. My spin on his motives for constitional change? Sorry, no spin. I agree that the motivation was to retain power and I disagree with it. As the same time, I think calling it an "utter and perverse abuse of power" is going over the top. It wasn't as if the changes were made solely by presidential decree - they were voted on in a referendum and approved. The majority of the media in Venezuela is anti- rather than pro-Chavez. http://venezuelablog...as-in-venezuela No, I don't dispute that there have been accusations of corruption and nepotism against Chavez, but what of it? The man had god-knows how many enemies and I have no way of knowing whether the charges are genuine or politically-motivated. I very much doubt that you do either. I'm not embarrassed in the slightest. In fact, I would be embarrassed if I had to resort to the rude, pompous and arrogant tone you used in this or later posts. You may imagine calling people twits, morons, accusing them of "talking out of their ass" ...etc helps make your point but I really doubt it. Fine, you aren't embarrassed for fabricating stuff and I'm not embarrassed of calling people for what they are. You said "So what?" when confronted with his motives for amending the constitution. Now you are back pedaling. Also no mention of his amending of the constitution to throw out Supreme court justices that he disagrees with and the choosing of his own electoral board. That's not an abuse of power? Sorry, but if you don't think that is, then we really have nothing more to say on this topic. In regards to corruption, please, it's well known that his family is living high on the hog, driving exotic vehicles, wearing so much bling that it would make Jay Z blush.... How did they get that money? They worked for the government, before Chavez came into power he was in the military. It's just common sense, anyone who lived in South America who keeps up with politics knows this to be the case, unless of course you are a sympathizer of Chavez and choose to turn a willful eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 The people that were in charge of Bolivia and Venezuela were a bunch of corrupt mother!@#$ers. They sucked their countries dry of whatever resources they had, and spread it amongst themselves, which is why people were clamoring for change. But that isn't what this argument is about, what we're talking about is that Chavez himself is a corrupt son of a B word, and has done more harm for his country than good and apparently there are people on this board who believe that his policy prescriptions were both effective and appropriate. Magox when I hear praise or criticism about a man or country I ask compared to whom- when I hear some British financial !@#$ talking about China's anemic 7.5% growth being because they have State capitalism I want to reach through the TV and say what about your -0% growth you sad arrogant !@#$, or an American talking about Iran being militaristic, seriously when was the last time Iran projected military force beyond it's border where as the American military is almost everywhere, and I ask the same question about Chavez, a bad guy maybe , but better than what came before him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 ... seriously when was the last time Iran projected military force beyond it's border where as the American military is almost everywhere, and I ask the same question about Chavez, a bad guy maybe , but better than what came before him . What????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Wow, you are one warped individual... No sane rational person believes that Chavez has been good for the country of Venezuela. At least we all now know that you have extreme views of your economic policies. Good to know you support Chavez Ummm, Correa, who I was talking about, is the president of Ecuador. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 8, 2013 Author Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Ummm, Correa, who I was talking about, is the president of Ecuador. Who said otherwise? Remember, you responded to this: Re negotiating contracts is a good thing, in the terms that they did it under, wasn't. So I guess you are ok with their treatment of Owens-Illinois, Conoco , Exxon etc.? Also, why no mention of personal seizures of farmland and possessions of private owners? Just shows what you are all about Edited March 8, 2013 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Yup. Worked great in Cuba & Soviet Union. It's not socialism or communism; it's more akin to the Chinese model--state directed Capitalism. The market is alive and well in Ecuador and Bolivia. The difference is these governments decided to take a greater share of the revenues from the companies extracting their resources, renegotiating the contracts. The increased revenues are being used to fund health, education, and infrastructure, and Ecuador is doing quite well with this model. In fact it is listed as one of the most popular countries in the world to retire to. Who said otherwise? Remember, you responded to this: My mistake then. I've been talking about Bolivia and Ecuador in this thread, staying away from the Chavez debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 It's not socialism or communism; it's more akin to the Chinese model--state directed Capitalism. The market is alive and well in Ecuador and Bolivia. The difference is these governments decided to take a greater share of the revenues from the companies extracting their resources, renegotiating the contracts. The increased revenues are being used to fund health, education, and infrastructure, and Ecuador is doing quite well with this model. In fact it is listed as one of the most popular countries in the world to retire to. And that will work for a little while until they get to the point where state direction will be mismanaged, because resources will go to pet projects and cronies, instead of where it will earn the best return. It's not like we haven't seen this movie before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 And that will work for a little while until they get to the point where state direction will be mismanaged, because resources will go to pet projects and cronies, instead of where it will earn the best return. It's not like we haven't seen this movie before. Wow, sounds like America.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Wow, sounds like America.... Please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Please... Crony capitalism dude... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Crony capitalism dude... Like Obama institutionalizing student loans to ensure that college tuition keeps growing at multiples of inflation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Like Obama institutionalizing student loans to ensure that college tuition keeps growing at multiples of inflation? That actually started before Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 That actually started before Obama. Not the federalisation of the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Not the federalisation of the program. Yes, it did. I was involved with part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfatbillsfan Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Oh no you di'int Tom, you lose. You brought up the Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Tom, you lose. You brought up the Nazis. The problem with jokes like that is that when you're as big an idiot as you are, people can't tell the joke from your normal, everyday stupidity. You are joking, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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