Hugo Chavez

[chicot]

If you cared so much about the poor why would you endorse a system that all but guarantees that these people remain poor albeit slightly more comfortably? Some humanitarian you are.

 

The people themselves endorse it. Who am I to tell them that I know better than they do what they need?

[Jauronimo]

The people themselves endorse it. Who am I to tell them that I know better than they do what they need?

Well if the people endorse it then it must be great, as majorities have consistently demonstrated superior ability to choose responsible systems of governance which are both long-term sustainable and promote steady growth.

[B-Man]

Did Venezuela vote for more of the same?

 

Chavez does have a militant populist constituency, and it's not impossible that the final result does reflect what the voters actually did. But then, Vladimir Putin wins elections, too, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won at least one.

 

It is not elections alone that make a free society -- and a free society is what Venezuela long ago ceased to be.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/09/opinion/frum-chavez-venezuela

[chicot]

Well if the people endorse it then it must be great, as majorities have consistently demonstrated superior ability to choose responsible systems of governance which are both long-term sustainable and promote steady growth.

 

I'm not saying that his policies were necessarily sustainable or promote steady growth. What I am saying is that if you are living in abject poverty then the latest growth figure is of somewhat abstract importance and your immediate living conditions are of somewhat greater concern.

[3rdnlng]

The conehead has spoken.

[IDBillzFan]

The people themselves endorse it. Who am I to tell them that I know better than they do what they need?

 

It's truly a shame that so many people have come to believe impoverished mediocrity under the thumb of a manipulative, self-serving government is a good thing.

[Jauronimo]

I'm not saying that his policies were necessarily sustainable or promote steady growth. What I am saying is that if you are living in abject poverty then the latest growth figure is of somewhat abstract importance and your immediate living conditions are of somewhat greater concern.

Thats why the masses elect leaders who in theory are able to look at the situation broadly and balance short term needs with long term goals and establish a system that allocates resources as efficiently as possible within the confines of the system. When the masses embrace a system in which the future is of abstract importance, I have to question the wisdom of the masses.

[....lybob]

[DC Tom]

 

Some of those are impressive. Some...not so much. Overall, they remind me of Weimar Germany.

[GG]

Some of those are impressive. Some...not so much. Overall, they remind me of Weimar Germany.

 

Oh no you di'int

[B-Large]

Some of those are impressive. Some...not so much. Overall, they remind me of Weimar Germany.

 

So wait, you're not buying a retirement home is Caracus now?

[....lybob]

Some of those are impressive. Some...not so much. Overall, they remind me of Weimar Germany.

Again pros and cons - and you have to put some things in context like his suppression of "free press" that same "free press" engaged in a 24/7 propaganda blitz and call for overthrow against Chavez during the 2002 coup attempt, the nationalization of the oil companies came after an Atlas Shrugs like attempt to shut down the oil companies by locking out the workers, I'm not an expert on Venezuela but from what I gather from people who have lived there is basically most of the poor and lower middle-class loved him and about 30% of the wealthy cooperated with him to their benefit- most of the upper-middle-class hated him along with about 70% of the wealthy who were not as wealthy as they use to be.

[Magox]

Sorry, but I give the poor a bit more credit than you do. They know whether they are starving or not, whether they are receiving healthcare or not, whether they have access to education or not. Yes, he amended the constitution. So what? Constitution's are not actually set in stone, to remain immutable for all eternity (being from the US, I realize you'd have difficulty with that concept ). The change was voted on and passed. It's also worth remembering that despite his curbs on the media, most of the media was extremely hostile to Chavez for the whole of his presidency. Yet, he won elections in spite of this.

 

As for this 2 billion dollars claim, find me a credible source (sorry but dubious Miami-based exiles do not count) and I'll believe it. Until then I'll regard it as propaganda and utter garbage.

 

This post was filled with so much poppycock, Don't even know where to begin.

 

 

So I'm going to dismantle this pile of garbage point by point.

 

(being from the US, I realize you'd have difficulty with that concept ).

 

Really? huh, that's funny, considering that I am a citizen of Bolivia, not a resident but citizen. We receive more news coming out of Venezuela than any other country in Latin America, aside from Venezuela of course, and most of the news is sympathetic to Chavez, never mind the fact that the president of our country is Evo Morales.

 

 

Yes, he amended the constitution. So what? Constitution's are not actually set in stone, to remain immutable for all eternity

 

 

I'm not opposed to amending the constitution, I question his motive. He amended the constitution to end term limits, to gain full autonomy of the central bank, to facilitate the removal of supreme court justices and name his own election board. Why would he do this? I know why, and so do many other rational, knowledgeable thinking people, which is to retain control and power. No free thinking person would disagree that this was an utter and perverse abuse of power that was solely driven by his desire to retain control. I'd love to hear your spin as to his motives for this.

 

 

It's also worth remembering that despite his curbs on the media, most of the media was extremely hostile to Chavez for the whole of his presidency. Yet, he won elections in spite of this.

 

 

bull ****! You are talking out of your ass again.

 

 

CARACAS, Aug 1 (Reuters) - More than a dozen of 34 radio stations ordered shut by the Venezuelan government went off the air on Saturday, part of President Hugo Chavez's drive to extend his socialist revolution to the media.

The association of radio broadcasters said 13 stations had stopped transmitting, following an announcement Friday night by government broadcasting watchdog Conatel that 34 radio outlets would be closed because they failed to comply with regulations.

Critics said the crackdown infringed on freedom of speech and that owners were not given the right to a proper defense.

"They're closing the space for dissidents in Venezuela," William Echeverria, head of the National Council of Journalists, told RCTV, a private cable TV station, which did not have its broadcasting license renewed in 2007.

 

Venezuela's attorney general presented this week draft legislation that would establish prison sentences for anyone who provides false information that harms the interests of the state. Rights groups harshly criticized the proposal.

As part of his drive to remake Venezuela as a socialist country, Chavez has vastly expanded the number of publicly owned television and radio stations since he took office in 1999. Some are directly owned or financed by the government, while others are operated by cooperatives and community groups.

 

http://www.reuters.c...146551720090801

 

Everyone that is from Latin America that has any interest in politics that isn't a kool aid drinking sympathizer of Chavez knows that he coerced, intimidated and jailed voices of opposition. When you intimidate the opposition, and effectively have state run media on your side, the ability to control message becomes much easier. You'd have to be a moron to deny that.

 

Also, it is a well-known fact that Chavez and his family has been involved in charges of corruption and nepotism. You disputing that?

 

 

 

 

Azuaje has blown the whistle on what he claims is a kleptocratic dynasty in Barinas where farms, businesses, banks and government contracts have been pocketed by the president's parents and five brothers.

The allegations come amid wider complaints that the revolutionary socialist movement known as "chavismo" has been hijacked by money-driven opportunists inside, or close to, the government.

Nationalisations, the creation of new state enterprises and a maze of price and currency controls have spawned well-connected millionaires nicknamed Boligarchs, after the independence hero revered by Chávez, Simón Bolívar .

Murky state finances meanwhile have put Venezuela 162nd, alongside Angola and Congo, out of 180 countries in Transparency International's corruption perceptions index.

Chávez appears to have recognised the wheel has turned: that the cry against corruption which helped bring him to power in 1998 will be used against his candidates in September's legislative elections. "This party has to tighten the moral belt," he said in December last year.

The charismatic leader remains popular with many of the poor for spending oil revenues on social programmes but with the economy shrinking and widespread electricity and water shortages the perception of sleaze could tip the balance against his PSUV party. Some 64% think corruption has worsened and regard things to be generally going badly, according to a recent poll.

For Chávez it is especially galling that Barinas, the family fiefdom and revolution showcase, is now cited for corruption, nepotism and misrule. Critics have a list of grievances and accusations which make the state's administration sound like a soap opera.

Chávez's father ruled as governor for a decade until handing over to the president's brother, Adán, in an election marred by fraud allegations. Other brothers are also thriving: Aníbal is mayor of nearby Sabaneta; Adelis is a top banker at Banco Sofitasa, which enjoys government contracts; Argenis wields enormous clout as a political fixer; Narciso is reportedly planning his own election run.

Members of what is dubbed the "royal family" travel in convoys of 4x4s. The president's once-matronly mother, Elena, has had a makeover with plastic surgery, designer clothes, bling jewellery and a poodle named Coqui.

It is alleged the family bought thousands of hectares of farmland through proxies, including a former labourer, Nestor Izarra, who is named as the owner of one estate, La Malagueña. The family has denied any wrongdoing.

 

http://www.guardian....rruption-claims

 

 

And to this:

 

find me a credible source (sorry but dubious Miami-based exiles do not count) and I'll believe it.

 

 

Hold on, So their CEO Jerry Brewer is an exile? huh

 

 

Over thirty years of professional managerial and leadership experience in the field of Criminal Justice; fifteen (15) years as Chief of Police (3 states); U.S. Congressional and State Senate and House, honors.

 

Published Author and Columnist on extensive criminal Justice topics: Intelligence; terrorism/counterterrorism; transnational organized crime; international Border security; domestic and international Policing, and related world events- published archives: (www.scribd.com/jbrewer31 and www.mexidata.info).

 

U.S. Government-trained counterterrorism specialist and senior trainer, with extensive operational activity in Latin America and the Middle East as an Intelligence Community operative. Fluency in Spanish (Castilian).

 

Consultant and Court certified Expert Witness in Police Management/Leadership; Police Liability/Use Of Force; Police Procedures; Major Case/Criminal Investigation Management; Death/Homicide/Cold Case, and Intelligence-led policing. Fifteen (15) Years- Chief of Police (3 states).

 

Training specialization in domestic and international policing transition into confronting narcoterrorism and other transnational organized criminal threats. Perspectives in applying advanced law enforcement role in countering intelligence applied tradecraft issues. Consultants on the investigative direction in complex criminal and related transnational threats-:

http://www.scribd.co...ing-Consultants

 

Practitioner/Senior Trainer: Surveillance Detection; Countersurveillance; Counterterrorism; Site/Route Analysis; Threat Assessment/Analysis; Operational Security (OPSEC); Force Protection; Counter-Criminal Operations; Narcoterrorism; and counter-espionage/tradecraft issues. www.cjiausa.org

Specialties

 

International Counterterrorism/Global Threat Mitigation, Policing infrastructure and operational readiness/audit.

http://www.linkedin....er-sr/8/829/25b

 

http://www.cjiausa.org/

 

The notion that they are a bunch of "exiles" is yet again, another fabrication on your part.

 

According to Jerry Brewer, president of Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA), Hugo Chavez’s net worth might have been bolstered by absconding money from the people of Venezuela:

“The personal fortune of the Castro brothers has been estimated at a combined value of around $2 billion. The Chávez Frías family in Venezuela has amassed a fortune of a similar scale since the arrival of Chávez to the presidency in 1999 We believe that organized bolivarian criminal groups within the Chávez administration have subtracted around $100 billion out of the nearly $1 trillion in oil income made by PDVSA since 1999.”

 

Read more at

http://www.inquisitr...6YsSVkuKz9T6.99

 

 

 

 

Human Rights Watch points out that Hugo Chavez’s presidency was characterized by a dramatic concentration of power and open disregard for basic human rights guarantees:

“Hugo Chavez and his followers moved to concentrate power. They seized control of the Supreme Court and undercut the ability of journalists, human rights defenders, and other Venezuelans to exercise fundamental rights. By his second full term in office, the concentration of power and erosion of human rights protections had given the government free rein to intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticized the president or thwarted his political agenda. In recent years, the president and his followers used these powers in a wide range of prominent cases, whose damaging impact was felt by entire sectors of Venezuelan society.”

 

http://www.hrw.org/n...ritarian-legacy

 

 

Now that we've established that you were wrong on just about every count and that you resort to fabrications to make your points, you have no more credibility on this subject, and most likely on anything else that you opine on. Also, I would suggest the next time you decide to engage in a conversation, that you make sure you come with facts, because if you don't someone like myself who is much more knowledgeable than you (in this particular topic) will come along and embarrass you.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Magox

[Magox]

Two of the most significant improvements in "conditions of the poor" have come from Ecuador and Bolivia.

Imagine that, a transfer of wealth from one class of people to another. I've seen it first hand, how did you come to this conclusion? Reading about it?

[meazza]

Imagine that, a transfer of wealth from one class of people to another. I've seen it first hand, how did you come to this conclusion? Reading about it?

 

Funny that people who see first hand the reality of leftist policies never want to go back.

[TPS]

Imagine that, a transfer of wealth from one class of people to another. I've seen it first hand, how did you come to this conclusion? Reading about it?

No dumbass, I 've been to Ecuador 4 times and Bolivia once. maybe you don't remember that you and I were both travelling there around the same time, 2009, yes?

[Magox]

No dumbass, I 've been to Ecuador 4 times and Bolivia once. maybe you don't remember that you and I were both travelling there around the same time, 2009, yes?

 

Oh, so "travelling" is where you picked this bit of information from? Got it

 

So you agree with what I said then? That it's primarily because of a transfer of wealth

[....lybob]

Funny that people who see first hand the reality of leftist policies never want to go back.

when people with resources get screwed they can leave and B word about their treatment in another country - when the poor get screwed you don't get to hear them B word because they don't have the resources to leave, before Chavez the poverty rate was about 70% 2011 it was down to 27% - here's a hint, you don't want socialism then don't let a large portion of your population be in poverty

[meazza]

when people with resources get screwed they can leave and B word about their treatment in another country - when the poor get screwed you don't get to hear them B word because they don't have the resources to leave, before Chavez the poverty rate was about 70% 2011 it was down to 27% - here's a hint, you don't want socialism then don't let a large portion of your population be in poverty

 

Come again? When my parents left Italy, they were dirt poor and had to live in a friends apartment till they could afford rent. I've been trying to get the !@#$ out of Montreal for the last three years but I won't leave for something that isn't much better because I still get a relatively decent standard of living here. It's much easier to pick up and leave when **** is really bad but when **** is so/so, it's easier to choose the status quo.

[Jauronimo]

Can't the poor just internalize all the costs associated with their misery and stop trying to drag the rest of us down with them? Is that asking too much?