Nurse refused to give CPR to elderly woman who later died

[Fezmid]

Gotta love living in a sue-happy society.

The facility’s executive director, Jeffrey Toomer, sent a statement on behalf of Glenwood Gardens to KGET, the station reported.

“In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives,” the statement said, according to KGET.

 

http://latimesblogs....later-died.html

[boyst]

Hide the buck shot if that's my grandpa or grandma. That **** wouldn't be pretty.

 

I. I guess I am just speechless. Grandparents are the most special thing in this world.

[Gugny]

Wow. Disgusting on so many levels. Not really much more to say.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Something is not right here. Why would anybody start CPR on a person who was breathing? Huh? She's breathing, if barely... That means she has a heartbeat. Why would the dispatcher lump the procedure into the catch all term: CPR. The dispatcher should have never mentioned the word CPR until there was no breathing (and pulse)... Some people get the yips with the word CPR. This points to poor procedure and the dispatcher wasn't making herself clear enough. The opening procedure in CPR is to check the airway, breathing and make sure it is clear... If breathing, possibly assist in breathing with making the airway clear and then mouth to mouth (which in this day and age can be anything but, with the devices available in medical kits: It happened in a assisted living dinning room).

 

Here is the cut and paste from the article:

 

"In the tape, a different Glenwood Gardens employee said that an elderly woman had passed out in the facility’s dining room while eating. She was barely breathing.

 

For several minutes, Halvorson begged the nurse to begin CPR, saying something had to be done before an ambulance arrived.

 

After the nurse repeatedly refused, Halvorson asked her to find a passerby or anyone who would be willing to help. Halvorson said she would talk someone through performing CPR.

 

“I understand if your facility is not willing to do that,” Halvorson told the nurse. “Give the phone to that passerby, that stranger…this woman’s not breathing enough.

 

“She’s going to die if we don’t get this started.… I don’t understand why you’re not willing to help this patient.”"

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Wow. Disgusting on so many levels. Not really much more to say.

 

Why? The elderly woman WAS breathing... If barely. NO way should she have started chest compressions! Would the dispatcher have told her to do that if she agreed.

 

We are not being feed the right information here. Everybody is jumping to the conclusion that is flawed. I am not saying the nurse if right. I'd agree w/you if the old lady stopped breathing and lost pulse and then the nurse refused. A good assestment of this story would be that the dispatcher was "pulling the cart before the horse." The dispatcher really should have played it differently!

[ExiledInIllinois]

Hide the buck shot if that's my grandpa or grandma. That **** wouldn't be pretty.

 

I. I guess I am just speechless. Grandparents are the most special thing in this world.

 

The elderly lady WAS breathing. If the nurse agreed to the dispatcher's demands... Would she have started chest compressions? I have never heard of starting CPR on a breathing victim. Again, something is not right hear... The elderly lady died later. Starting CPR when the dipacther said do so would not have saved her life. I am contending it might of killed her faster! Would have been nice if an AED was on site... The computer would have picked up this situation and NEVER would have shocked the heart. The machine would have advised what the dispatcher should have properly conveyed!

Edited March 4, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois

[Captain Hindsight]

The elderly lady WAS breathing. If the nurse agreed to the dispatcher's demands... Would she have started chest compressions? I have never heard of starting CPR on a breathing victim. Again, something is not right hear... The elderly lady died later. Starting CPR when the dipacther said do so would not have saved her life. I am contending it might of killed her faster! Would have been nice if an AED was on site... The computer would have picked up this situation and NEVER would have shocked the heart. The machine would have advised what the dispatcher should have properly conveyed!

Yup I was wondering that when I read it the first time. If shes breathing CPR isnt a good idea. Chest compressions often break ribs when done properly, That could have very well killed her. Something was lost in the story.If she wasn't breathing, CPR should have been done, but if shes breathing....

 

I dont know. Its a bit bizarre. I feel like we are missing some info here

Edited March 4, 2013 by Captain Hindsight

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

Yup I was wondering that when I read it the first time. If shes breathing CPR isnt a good idea. Chest compressions often break ribs when done properly, That could have very well killed her. Something was lost in the story.If she wasn't breathing, CPR should have been done, but if shes breathing....

 

I dont know. Its a bit bizarre. I feel like we are missing some info here

 

I honestly think the dispatcher had poor procedure. She should have never mentioned CPR off the bat... Instead, asked if the victim was breathing and had a pulse (even know this is part of the CPR procedure) Answer to is she breathing/Have a pulse? Yes, yes... Why CPR? Check for obstructed airway (she was dining)... Clear airway, assist in breathing if needed. Boy, the media will eat this up!

 

Then again... faint breathing is very deceptive... That is why checking pulse is important too! BUT, it was perfectly clear that breathing was there (so there is heart function).

 

Oh well...

Edited March 4, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois

[KD in CA]

Yup I was wondering that when I read it the first time. If shes breathing CPR isnt a good idea. Chest compressions often break ribs when done properly, That could have very well killed her. Something was lost in the story.If she wasn't breathing, CPR should have been done, but if shes breathing....

 

I dont know. Its a bit bizarre. I feel like we are missing some info here

 

Oh, nothing was lost in this story. The 'story' is very clear: Let's all get outraged that everyone stood around while granny died.

 

The story certainly isn't "if you let people sue nursing homes because CPR didn't work on the last guy, don't act all shocked when they refuse to do it on the next person". And the story certainly isn't "exactly how much more taxpayer money that we don't have are we supposed to spend keeping 87 year olds alive?"

[Gugny]

Why? The elderly woman WAS breathing... If barely. NO way should she have started chest compressions! Would the dispatcher have told her to do that if she agreed.

 

We are not being feed the right information here. Everybody is jumping to the conclusion that is flawed. I am not saying the nurse if right. I'd agree w/you if the old lady stopped breathing and lost pulse and then the nurse refused. A good assestment of this story would be that the dispatcher was "pulling the cart before the horse." The dispatcher really should have played it differently!

I understand that the woman was breathing, and perhaps CPR was not the best course of action.

 

What is disgusting is the fact that a facility that makes its money by keeping people alive has a policy that will let people who are NOT breathing die - all in an effort to avoid being sued. That's disgusting.

[Doc]

I understand that the woman was breathing, and perhaps CPR was not the best course of action.

 

What is disgusting is the fact that a facility that makes its money by keeping people alive has a policy that will let people who are NOT breathing die - all in an effort to avoid being sued. That's disgusting.

Blame society. And I'm sure this policy was made known to people who put their elders there. And we don't even know if she had a DNR order.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Doc

[Gugny]

Blame society. And I'm sure this policy was made known to people who put their elders there. And we don't even know if she had a DNR order.

Indeed, society is to blame. I think it's a horrible position to put employees into. They have to choose between letting someone die, whom they know they can help .. or losing their job in a time where jobs are hard to come by.

 

All in the name of money. What a sad situation.

[DrDawkinstein]

Tough one here. I love my grandparents more than anything, but...

 

Arent these homes where you send people to go to die? Is the expectation really that the staff at the home is supposed to medically sustain their lives as long as possible, every time there is a problem? Or isnt that called a HOSPITAL?

 

I guess it depends on the facility, but I would bet there are a lot more assisted living homes that have this policy than any of us know.

 

The LA Times does a great job of dramatizing the ordeal and making it sound like something right out of Law & Order or ER, and it sounds tragic when you read it, with the 911 operator "begging for someone to help". But I dont know enough about the assisted living facility or industry to condemn it.

 

I understand that the woman was breathing, and perhaps CPR was not the best course of action.

 

What is disgusting is the fact that a facility that makes its money by keeping people alive has a policy that will let people who are NOT breathing die - all in an effort to avoid being sued. That's disgusting.

 

Does it though? Are they in the business of keeping people alive? Or are they in the business of giving people a comfortable place to die?

[Captain Hindsight]

Tough one here. I love my grandparents more than anything, but...

 

Arent these homes where you send people to go to die? Is the expectation really that the staff at the home is supposed to medically sustain their lives as long as possible, every time there is a problem? Or isnt that called a HOSPITAL?

 

I guess it depends on the facility, but I would bet there are a lot more assisted living homes that have this policy than any of us know.

 

The LA Times does a great job of dramatizing the ordeal and making it sound like something right out of Law & Order or ER, and it sounds tragic when you read it, with the 911 operator "begging for someone to help". But I dont know enough about the assisted living facility or industry to condemn it.

Yup, its actually pretty common for workplace environments these days. Sad because someone sued over it once I'm sure and thats the reason for it

[DrDawkinstein]

Yup, its actually pretty common for workplace environments these days. Sad because someone sued over it once I'm sure and thats the reason for it

 

I dont think the complete cause is fear of being sued. Although Im sure that plays a part, as litigation plays a part in everything that happens in this country.

[Wooderson]

I've been CPR certified for almost a decade. I've always been taught to NOT perform chest compressions when a person is breathing, even if it is "barely".

 

We're taught to monitor the situation and keep checking their pulse for signs of life while waiting for emergency personnel to arrive.

[Chef Jim]

Arent these homes where you send people to go to die?

 

Last time I checked that's what happens to 87 year old people. They die. And don't call me cold. My mom is 87 and I am well prepared for that call.

 

I've been CPR certified for almost a decade. I've always been taught to NOT perform chest compressions when a person is breathing, even if it is "barely".

 

We're taught to monitor the situation and keep checking their pulse for signs of life while waiting for emergency personnel to arrive.

 

The last person I'm taking medical directives from. A 911 operator.

[Just Jack]

I guess it depends on the facility, but I would bet there are a lot more assisted living homes that have this policy than any of us know.

 

There are three "levels" of facilities....

 

Independent Living - basically an apartment complex for senior citizens. Usually no medical staff on site

Assisted Living - like Independent, but with a medical staff, normally CNA's, with one nurse overseeing them

Health Care Center - Hospital like setting, usually once you arrive, the only way you leave is in a hearse

[Meathead]

i read this story this morning and also immediately felt there was information missing. of course that wont stop the author from using an intentionally inflammatory story title or readers from jumping to massive conclusions of outrage

[DrDawkinstein]

Last time I checked that's what happens to 87 year old people. They die. And don't call me cold. My mom is 87 and I am well prepared for that call.

 

Im right there with you, Jim. I dont think its cold or morbid at all. Death is a fact of life. I think it is modern society that has it all wrong.

 

The last person I'm taking medical directives from. A 911 operator.

 

Yep.

 

There are three "levels" of facilities....

 

Independent Living - basically an apartment complex for senior citizens. Usually no medical staff on site

Assisted Living - like Independent, but with a medical staff, normally CNA's, with one nurse overseeing them

Health Care Center - Hospital like setting, usually once you arrive, the only way you leave is in a hearse

 

Nice breakdown, Jack. I would be surprised if any of these levels were meant to be providing constant emergency resuscitation care. And if so, how many times do you do it?

 

We're talking about "old folks homes" here. Dying is what they do best, and (imo) the purpose of all of these facilities is to provide a safe, comfortable place to spend their last days.

 

Regardless of if the woman was breathing or whether CPR technically should have been administered in this specific case, I dont blame them for having a policy of "Call 911 and let nature take it's course".

 

 

Here's the most important part of the article:

Bayless' daughter told KGET that she was a nurse and was satisfied with her mother's care at Glenwood Gardens, the station reported.