Levitre: Hasn't heard anything from the Bills yet

[aristocrat]

Its funny, we finally nail a great player in the draft and we can't keep him. I'm not going to pretend to understand how teams play with the cap but the Bills should be able to afford both wood and levitre. Kalil got 8 million in carolina and wood isn't kalil. I'd expect wood to get something like 6-6.5 mil per over 4-5 years based on injury history and one could argue on the lower amount. Losing levitre is the same as us drafting rb's over and over and over again creating holes at other positions. We need to leave levitre in place and continue to draft well and fill in the other spots on the roster.

[QCity]

I really don't understand the logic Levitre has played C,G even LT in a pinch and hasn't missed a game. These types of O-linemen do not grow on trees and when you find one you lock them up in a long term contract and pay them as one of the best in the league. That is if you are a serious NFL organization and not a laughing stock.

 

You might not understand the logic because what you are saying simply isn't true. The best OGs in the league aren't paid the highest salaries because they are versatile - they command top dollar because they are dominant at their respective positions. Sure durability is important. Yes, it's a nice luxury to be able to kick Levitre out to LT in a pinch, but that speaks more to our lack of depth than anything else.

 

3) Yes, Levitre is versatile and consistent, that doesn't make him one of the best in the league. He's good, and I'm glad we have him, but if you ask me (and nobody did), the dropoff between him and guys like Brandon Moore, Matt Slauson, Louis Vasquez, Kevin Boothe, or Ramon Foster isn't huge, if it's even noticable at all. If the gap in compensation is significant, it's probably a better team decision to let Levitre go and sign one of those guys for perhaps a fraction of the cost.

 

All that said, I'm totally in favor of keeping him, as long as it's not a bank-breaker. He's not Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans, or even Marshall Yanda. He's very good, not great.

 

Amen. I agree with you on keeping him as well. Offering him the $6.4M/year that Yanda (a better G) gets would be very fair to both sides IMO.

[thebandit27]

What makes you believe that? It didn't work for Tyson Clabo, and it won't work for most players. The Bills will be used as leverage in most negotiations and the only type of guy they will get here is the one that they overpay, IMO. It just isn't a prime destination yet.

 

The Clabo example doesn't fit your premise...he didn't use Buffalo for leverage, as he took less to stay in Atlanta. Meachem didn't use Buffalo for leverage, in fact he used San Diego as leverage in his negotiations with Buffalo. When he said what they offered, we declined to match it...that's not using us for leverage.

 

Contrary to what some may believe, Mario Williams didn't sign here for any more money than he'd have gotten anywhere else. Most insiders pegged Williams eventual salary at around $16M per, a slight step up from the $15M Julius Peppers got on the open market 3 years earlier. If we didnt' give it to him, someone else would have.

 

I'm not saying we're a prime destination for FAs, but let's not kid ourselves, guards aren't exactly in high demand...when confronted with a solid number, they'll sign.

[K-9]

You might not understand the logic because what you are saying simply isn't true. The best OGs in the league aren't paid the highest salaries because they are versatile - they command top dollar because they are dominant at their respective positions. Sure durability is important. Yes, it's a nice luxury to be able to kick Levitre out to LT in a pinch, but that speaks more to our lack of depth than anything else.

 

 

 

Amen. I agree with you on keeping him as well. Offering him the $6.4M/year that Yanda (a better G) gets would be very fair to both sides IMO.

 

Agreed.

 

And you make a great point about a player needing to be dominant at his position.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[RuntheDamnBall]

The Clabo example doesn't fit your premise...he didn't use Buffalo for leverage, as he took less to stay in Atlanta. Meachem didn't use Buffalo for leverage, in fact he used San Diego as leverage in his negotiations with Buffalo. When he said what they offered, we declined to match it...that's not using us for leverage.

 

Contrary to what some may believe, Mario Williams didn't sign here for any more money than he'd have gotten anywhere else. Most insiders pegged Williams eventual salary at around $16M per, a slight step up from the $15M Julius Peppers got on the open market 3 years earlier. If we didnt' give it to him, someone else would have.

 

I'm not saying we're a prime destination for FAs, but let's not kid ourselves, guards aren't exactly in high demand...when confronted with a solid number, they'll sign.

Guess we'll just see what happens. I think you can still call it using the Bills for leverage even if the end result is a deal less than what they offered. The deal taken is certainly not the first offer made. I would be extremely surprised if what Clabo got was Atlanta's first and last offer, and if it was not sweetened based on the presence of offers from other teams. Though that, in a way, proves my point. If they'll take less money NOT to come to Buffalo, there's a problem that they will have to contend with until they have built a winning program.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Here's the thing. This opinion is correct:

 

I like Levitre a lot. But the issue is what is his value and how much is he worth. This is a good year to be a quality offensive lineman in the free agent market. He is one of the better guards on the market with a number of teams that want to shore up their lines before entering the draft. From a cap and production standpoint the market works in the players favor at the expense of the team he is currently playing for.

 

I see the same scenario playing out as it did with Paul Posluszny when he became a free agent. A good player getting paid more than he is worth to the team he was with. The Bills made the right decision when they let Paul P depart. The mistake they made is that the draft pick they made to replace him, Sheppard, has so far turned out to be a dud. If the Bills can come up with a decent guard to replace Levitre then that would be a decent fallback position.

 

And while these opinions disagree, they are also correct:

 

The best O-lineman are on the field.

Stalwart is the most important characteristic.

Levitre is Stalwart.

 

I really don't understand the logic Levitre has played C,G even LT in a pinch and hasn't missed a game. These types of O-linemen do not grow on trees and when you find one you lock them up in a long term contract and pay them as one of the best in the league. That is if you are a serious NFL organization and not a laughing stock.

 

Its funny, we finally nail a great player in the draft and we can't keep him. I'm not going to pretend to understand how teams play with the cap but the Bills should be able to afford both wood and levitre. Kalil got 8 million in carolina and wood isn't kalil. I'd expect wood to get something like 6-6.5 mil per over 4-5 years based on injury history and one could argue on the lower amount. Losing levitre is the same as us drafting rb's over and over and over again creating holes at other positions. We need to leave levitre in place and continue to draft well and fill in the other spots on the roster.

 

We're arguing from positions of certainty but the situation is very uncertain. The Bills know what they're willing to offer. Levitre knows what he's willing to accept. But neither side knows what kind of offers he's gonna get. That's the great unknown.

 

Let's be clear on this. Andy Levitre is a goner from Buffalo. He will make much more hitting the FA market. He would be the #1 target for OL in FA.

 

He actually would be foolish $ wise to stay in Buffalo.

 

I don't know if we'll be able to retain him or not but as to your last sentence, it might be more correct if you said he'd be foolish football-wise to stay in Buffalo. The quality of team the 2013 Buffalo Bills will be is also a great unknown.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I can't remember the details, but I remember 2 preseasons ago, gaily sat Levitre and because of injury he was put back in the line up, and seemed to play well in the regular season. I also remember reading that Nix likes his guards to be big (320+ range). Does anyone remember what the problem was 2 years ago. Maybe Nix doesn't really value him, I think he was drafts by the Jauron staff.

 

Gailey did make Rinehart the "starter" for a day or two a couple years back. It's pretty clear from the guys that Nix has added to the OL that he likes guys that can fill a phone booth.

[LiterateStylish]

Huh? Why would you enter negotiations with 2 players if you don't have enough for both? Wouldn't it make more sense to figure out 1 player, in this situation it's Byrd because his franchise tag is less so therefore less of a cap hit? And at the same time cut and make more room under the cap. Then go back to that 2nd player with an actual number.

 

Signing Levitre/Byrd and entertaining other FA's on 9 million, is not possible.

 

Did you read my post or just see my name and respond? I said "I never said they should have entered negotiations or that they would have enough money. I said the theory that the Bills needed to sign Byrd first to see what money they had left over is hogwash."

 

My point was that they knew from the beginning that they were probably going to have to Franchise Byrd. And if they didn't, they would be signing him to a deal close to the amount they would franchise him for. So they KNEW they weren't going to have money for Levitre. So tell him.

 

Please read my post this time before responding.

Edited March 6, 2013 by LiterateStylish

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Gailey did make Rinehart the "starter" for a day or two a couple years back. It's pretty clear from the guys that Nix has added to the OL that he likes guys that can fill a phone booth.

 

Yes but I have zero recollection of him actually saying that.

 

However when talking about prospects, he seems to like to discuss measurables so I agree with someone else's observation (can't remember who) that Nix is one of those scouts who really values measurables.

 

Also based on the players he's signed a free agents, it seems he likes big bodies.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yes but I have zero recollection of him actually saying that.

 

However when talking about prospects, he seems to like to discuss measurables so I agree with someone else's observation (can't remember who) that Nix is one of those scouts who really values measurables.

 

Also based on the players he's signed a free agents, it seems he likes big bodies.

 

Me either. However this is a case of action, not words. The fact that Buddy did not say it actually makes it more likely to be true.

[Like A Mofo]

Now let me - Marc Miller - be clear on this: if Levitre doesn't get re-signed, there will be a massive ticket boycott from an already very angry fanbase.

 

The guy's wife is from Buffalo. He wants to be here. Pay the man and move forward. Stop creating new holes while trying to fill current ones.

 

I don't care if his entire family is from Buffalo...money is money, the closer he gets to 31 other teams competing for him, the millions more he stands to make. He will get more then Buffalo will offer him, because teams always overpay in FA. That is not a knock against Buffalo, that is just reality.

 

He is gone.

[Like A Mofo]

Okay then, who is it that already signed him? And when does the NFL sanction them for illegally signing him before FA started?

 

Or, are you just guessing? Let's be clear on it.

 

I have no inside information. Nor does anyone else. Its a calculated opinion based off of many examples in many other sports. The closer you get to UFA, the more the player stands to make in the open market, especially in Andy's case given his age, position, and level of play. He is the top OL who stands to be a UFA. You can bet your bottom dollar his agent is chirping that in his ear.

 

Buffalo to me waited too long, I would be shocked to see Andy back with the Bills.

 

I would love to be wrong.

[1B4IDie]

You might not understand the logic because what you are saying simply isn't true. The best OGs in the league aren't paid the highest salaries because they are versatile - they command top dollar because they are dominant at their respective positions. Sure durability is important. Yes, it's a nice luxury to be able to kick Levitre out to LT in a pinch, but that speaks more to our lack of depth than anything else.

 

 

 

Amen. I agree with you on keeping him as well. Offering him the $6.4M/year that Yanda (a better G) gets would be very fair to both sides IMO.

 

QCity NFL FA is a leap frog game. When I player becomes a FA they leap frog their peers, they do not sign the same deal as their peers. By your rational if Yanda is currently getting about $6.4M a year than $7.9M a year would be logical for the next FA class.

 

Now let me - Marc Miller - be clear on this: if Levitre doesn't get re-signed, there will be a massive ticket boycott from an already very angry fanbase.

 

The guy's wife is from Buffalo. He wants to be here. Pay the man and move forward. Stop creating new holes while trying to fill current ones.

1.)There will not be ticket boycott. there never has been one in Buffalo and Levitre isn't going to make that happen.

2.) When did Levitre get married. He wasn't married a few weeks ago.

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/154524-andy-levitre-tweets-some-side-boob/

[K-9]

Did you read my post or just see my name and respond? I said "I never said they should have entered negotiations or that they would have enough money. I said the theory that the Bills needed to sign Byrd first to see what money they had left over is hogwash."

 

My point was that they knew from the beginning that they were probably going to have to Franchise Byrd. And if they didn't, they would be signing him to a deal close to the amount they would franchise him for. So they KNEW they weren't going to have money for Levitre. So tell him.

 

Please read my post this time before responding.

 

That doesn't make much sense from a negotiating standpoint.

 

Anyway, Andy isn't being inconvenienced by anything in the meantime. He's looking forward to that "once in a lifetime opportunity" to test the free agent waters. More power to him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[LiterateStylish]

That doesn't make much sense from a negotiating standpoint.

 

Anyway, Andy isn't being inconvenienced by anything in the meantime. He's looking forward to that "once in a lifetime opportunity" to test the free agent waters. More power to him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

In what way? If there isn't money, there isn't enough money. No amount of negotiating would change that.

[thebandit27]

I have no inside information. Nor does anyone else. Its a calculated opinion based off of many examples in many other sports. The closer you get to UFA, the more the player stands to make in the open market, especially in Andy's case given his age, position, and level of play. He is the top OL who stands to be a UFA. You can bet your bottom dollar his agent is chirping that in his ear.

 

Buffalo to me waited too long, I would be shocked to see Andy back with the Bills.

 

I would love to be wrong.

 

Perhaps, then, next time, you'll state it as an opinion, instead of guaranteeing that he's gone and we should be clear about it.

 

You, like everyone else, have no idea what's going to happen in the next 6 days.

 

EDIT: No, he isn't the top OL in free agency, he's the top guard. Jake Long and Jermon Bushrod are pro bowl LTs and will command more $$. Andre Smith and Sebastian Vollmer are highly touted RTs and should get more than him as well.

Edited March 6, 2013 by thebandit27

[QCity]

QCity NFL FA is a leap frog game. When I player becomes a FA they leap frog their peers, they do not sign the same deal as their peers. By your rational if Yanda is currently getting about $6.4M a year than $7.9M a year would be logical for the next FA class.

 

Right. Except Levitre is a "peer" to Yanda by position only, not by talent. Yanda is a top-5 guard and Andy simply isn't at his level. Now, nearly every GM in the league would say that Baltimore got fantastic value signing Yanda to a very reasonable contract, but that's not my point. You can sit down at the negotiating table and justify that number by saying "we are offering you a contract similar to a guy that is considered better than you" (obviously worded at bit more delicately). Also I can see him wanting more, but a 23% raise from $6.4M to $7.9M doesn't seem logical to me, how did you get that number?

[Dibs]

Right. Except Levitre is a "peer" to Yanda by position only, not by talent. Yanda is a top-5 guard and Andy simply isn't at his level. Now, nearly every GM in the league would say that Baltimore got fantastic value signing Yanda to a very reasonable contract, but that's not my point. You can sit down at the negotiating table and justify that number by saying "we are offering you a contract similar to a guy that is considered better than you" (obviously worded at bit more delicately). Also I can see him wanting more, but a 23% raise from $6.4M to $7.9M doesn't seem logical to me, how did you get that number?

 

I think slightly irrelevant to just how good/great he may be compared to his peers......it seems to me that you are correct with your 23% figure being illogical.

 

The overall cap number has increased only 3m in the last 2 seasons from 120m to 123m(somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this). I tend to think that the increases in FA contracts across the board have been escalating at an unrealistic pace over the last 2 years......perhaps due to teams assuming a standard historically higher cap increase. I wouldn't be surprised if FA contracts for this year(and future years?), for all positions are reduced compared to the previous 2 years.

(Obviously I am talking solid starter to high end contracts here and not journeymen roster filler ones).

[1B4IDie]

 

 

Right. Except Levitre is a "peer" to Yanda by position only, not by talent. Yanda is a top-5 guard and Andy simply isn't at his level. Now, nearly every GM in the league would say that Baltimore got fantastic value signing Yanda to a very reasonable contract, but that's not my point. You can sit down at the negotiating table and justify that number by saying "we are offering you a contract similar to a guy that is considered better than you" (obviously worded at bit more delicately). Also I can see him wanting more, but a 23% raise from $6.4M to $7.9M doesn't seem logical to me, how did you get that number?

1.) Your personal opinion of Levitre's ranking is your personal opnion. Most people would in fact consder Levtre a peer of Yonda, av s in both are Top 10 in thier position.

2.) its not a raise in comparison to Yonda its a swag at a top tier guard salary.

[ALF]

Levitre's position is critical like Byrd. So at least $7 milion a year min, restructure Fitz with incentives. Mario at $16 million is too much, compared to draft possible.