Maury Ballstein Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 My daughter insisted she was a boy when she was 6 and I neither encouraged or discouraged it. I told her should could play with boy toys and have boy friends and do boy things to her heart's content. I even teased to people in public that "she's a boy" even though she very clearly was and is a girl.... Point is... a year or two later she is over it and is happy to be a girl, has kid crushes on boy bands... and STILL loves playing boy games and doing boy things. We should not jump so quickly to make our children "define" themselves at such tender ages. Encourage exploration, allow experimentation with toys, dress, etc...but why make such permanent changes for a child who IS still defining and learning about themselves here's a little tidbit from the "comments" section that makes some sense IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The GID issue is way beyond my scope of knowledge...but the lawsuit is friggin ridiculous. Is the kid really "damaged" by using an anatomy-appropriate restroom? Sheesh. (Though as somebody who spends most of his time thinking about getting inside the body of a woman, I can identify.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 My daughter insisted she was a boy when she was 6 and I neither encouraged or discouraged it. I told her should could play with boy toys and have boy friends and do boy things to her heart's content. I even teased to people in public that "she's a boy" even though she very clearly was and is a girl.... Point is... a year or two later she is over it and is happy to be a girl, has kid crushes on boy bands... and STILL loves playing boy games and doing boy things. We should not jump so quickly to make our children "define" themselves at such tender ages. Encourage exploration, allow experimentation with toys, dress, etc...but why make such permanent changes for a child who IS still defining and learning about themselves here's a little tidbit from the "comments" section that makes some sense IMO. Where were those comments? They make sense to me. I understand Doc's points and Jay's, but the young age of the child is what confuses me in this case. Each of my kids were 5 yrs old (now 15, 13 and 8) and they all played with different things, made off the wall statements, were babied by grandparents and even unknowingly swore. Somehow I still think parents do play a role in this case (if nothing more than the fact this child is so young). All the scientific data may demonstrate that GID is a commonly diagnosed condition...but parents/a parent can play a huge role in a child's life and it is impossible to gauge (with any data or degree of certainty) how influential the parents were/are with this phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Where were those comments? They make sense to me. I understand Doc's points and Jay's, but the young age of the child is what confuses me in this case. Each of my kids were 5 yrs old (now 15, 13 and 8) and they all played with different things, made off the wall statements, were babied by grandparents and even unknowingly swore. Somehow I still think parents do play a role in this case (if nothing more than the fact this child is so young). All the scientific data may demonstrate that GID is a commonly diagnosed condition...but parents/a parent can play a huge role in a child's life and it is impossible to gauge (with any data or degree of certainty) how influential the parents were/are with this phenomenon. In articles I've ready about Coy, and they all say how much happier she is now. Could the parents be rationalizing their own desire that Coy be a girl? Maybe. Perhaps they indulged the "phase" at first and it turned into more than that. We know that kids gravitate toward and embrace things that make them happy and feel good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Where were those comments? They make sense to me. I understand Doc's points and Jay's, but the young age of the child is what confuses me in this case. Each of my kids were 5 yrs old (now 15, 13 and 8) and they all played with different things, made off the wall statements, were babied by grandparents and even unknowingly swore. Somehow I still think parents do play a role in this case (if nothing more than the fact this child is so young). All the scientific data may demonstrate that GID is a commonly diagnosed condition...but parents/a parent can play a huge role in a child's life and it is impossible to gauge (with any data or degree of certainty) how influential the parents were/are with this phenomenon. rosen's link to the CNN article........it was the first comment by the public posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 In articles I've ready about Coy, and they all say how much happier she is now. Could the parents be rationalizing their own desire that Coy be a girl? Maybe. Perhaps they indulged the "phase" at first and it turned into more than that. We know that kids gravitate toward and embrace things that make them happy and feel good. Yes, I agree. Like in your sister's case, she may have felt that at a young age and was traumatized by it but then with your family's support (and friends) she felt comfortable with her choice. At 5 (and even younger as the mother alludes to in this story) I question how much is the child's desire to be treated as a girl and how much of it was imposed on the child by the parents (who wanted to appear "tolerant" and "sophisticated" to their friends). I know the blogger link I provided above is not considered admissible evidence due to its lack of trustworthiness, but it does give some indication that "Mom" in this case may have had another agenda by declaring her son a girl at such a young age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Where were those comments? They make sense to me. I understand Doc's points and Jay's, but the young age of the child is what confuses me in this case. Each of my kids were 5 yrs old (now 15, 13 and 8) and they all played with different things, made off the wall statements, were babied by grandparents and even unknowingly swore. Somehow I still think parents do play a role in this case (if nothing more than the fact this child is so young). All the scientific data may demonstrate that GID is a commonly diagnosed condition...but parents/a parent can play a huge role in a child's life and it is impossible to gauge (with any data or degree of certainty) how influential the parents were/are with this phenomenon. I dont disagree with anything you say here. I agree that it is tough and strange and confusing when discussing these major life decisions at such a young age. Im not advocating that they push the child into a gender changing surgery that early. Let them live and identify however they like, dont go too overboard until things play out. But dont ignore it, or tell them they are wrong, or it's just a phase either. The comment that Ryan posted above is probably the best way to go about it. Edited March 1, 2013 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Sounds like a lot of you guys were influenced to be douche bags by your parents. And there is not a day that goes by that I don't thank them. Boom! pics?? Just kidding...geez, this thread needs some comedy. Where the heck is Chef Jim or San Jose Bills Fan?? Hang on, I just got here. And there is not a day that goes by that I don't thank them. Boom! Hang on, I just got here. And BTW the only douchebags in this are whoever felt that plastering this kids life in the news was a good idea. If it was his parents.......douches, the shool........douches, the media........super douches. You think he's going to have a tough life? Kid's going to be totally !@#$ed now. Good jobe SF Chronicle (where I saw this first) Edited March 1, 2013 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 In NYS, if yiur are in the middle of a sex change, and you are encarcerated, the state must pay to finish your sex change. Now that's F#%KED UP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I've seen a couple instances where you've discussed your sister. All those times I've come away with the same conclusion. You are a great brother! My sister's opinion piece on this situation: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/opinion/rose-coy-transgender-children/index.html PS - she used to be my brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 I've seen a couple instances where you've discussed your sister. All those times I've come away with the same conclusion. You are a great brother! Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Bravo to you too Dr Dareustein..this whole topic is still very'strange' to most. Having someone that appears to be educated in the matter will only help it become more understood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 I admit it...it is strange. If that makes me a bad guy...Guilty. Just difficult to wrap my head around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Of course it is...but intelligent dialog like this helps understand(not necessarily acceptance) it...baby steps! I admit it...it is strange. If that makes me a bad guy...Guilty. Just difficult to wrap my head around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 http://www.cnn.com/2...hool/index.html Little boy, age 5, born with male sex organs...as a Kindergarten student "suddenly realizes he is a girl inside"...not sure how a kid who can barely use the toilet or tie his own shoes has this revelation that he is actually more comfortable as a girl. Anyone think Mom and Dad had some type of influence on this child's behavior? Will this "boy" be bullied? Yes Will the parents sue to have Obamacare pay for a genital reassignment in the next three years?? You betcha *shaking my head* Craziness. I feel bad for my three kids and what they will have to witness when they are adults. From I read, the boy thought he was a she when it were three. The article I read, said nothing about what the parents are like. How do they just say OK that kid with a penis is our three year old girl. WTF is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Exactly right. Kids are just barely beginning to recognize sexuality at the age of 5; they sure as hell haven't been "living with the pain of being forced to live as blah, blah, blah...." Gender, not sexuality. Big difference, particularly at 5. Ridiculous analogy. Just curious, how many children do you have? Doesn't actually matter. Lots of you are speaking from a position of ignorance on what the diagnosis constitutes. The diagnostic criteria make a clear distinction between normal play-acting and actual gender confusion (the criteria are peppered with words such as "intense distress," "persistent preoccupation", "profound disturbance." In other words, it's not my three year old nephew playing with his sister's Barbie dolls, it's a pattern of strong insistence combined with intense negative behavior observed over a very long period of time (unspecified, and probably up to the diagnostician, but in my opinion anything less than two years is irresponsible.) And such kids can and have been observed to exhibit the same gender identity confusion into adolescence and adulthood. So DrD is absolutely correct, it is a real syndrome. HOWEVER...what's really known and understood about pre-pubescent gender identity and the interaction between biology and environment is generally so little, and the very idea of eliciting necessary information from a five year old to make a diagnosis difficult, that a conclusive diagnosis is probably impossible without saying "let's see what happens when they grow up." Generally, diagnosing something considered a mental disorder in anyone under the age of 18 is very difficult, and under the age of 10 almost a silly pursuit. The article, though, is largely a load of horseshit. Who says the kid truly has gender identity disorder? The parents? The government, because the idiot parents checked of "F" on the passport application? You can't just say "My boy thinks he's a girl, so he has the right to make everyone else pretend that as well." You actually have to...you know...medical knowledge to diagnose a medical problem. I don't see where it says ANYONE qualified actually diagnosed the kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Gender, not sexuality. Big difference, particularly at 5. Doesn't actually matter. Lots of you are speaking from a position of ignorance on what the diagnosis constitutes. The diagnostic criteria make a clear distinction between normal play-acting and actual gender confusion (the criteria are peppered with words such as "intense distress," "persistent preoccupation", "profound disturbance." In other words, it's not my three year old nephew playing with his sister's Barbie dolls, it's a pattern of strong insistence combined with intense negative behavior observed over a very long period of time (unspecified, and probably up to the diagnostician, but in my opinion anything less than two years is irresponsible.) And such kids can and have been observed to exhibit the same gender identity confusion into adolescence and adulthood. So DrD is absolutely correct, it is a real syndrome. HOWEVER...what's really known and understood about pre-pubescent gender identity and the interaction between biology and environment is generally so little, and the very idea of eliciting necessary information from a five year old to make a diagnosis difficult, that a conclusive diagnosis is probably impossible without saying "let's see what happens when they grow up." Generally, diagnosing something considered a mental disorder in anyone under the age of 18 is very difficult, and under the age of 10 almost a silly pursuit. The article, though, is largely a load of horseshit. Who says the kid truly has gender identity disorder? The parents? The government, because the idiot parents checked of "F" on the passport application? You can't just say "My boy thinks he's a girl, so he has the right to make everyone else pretend that as well." You actually have to...you know...medical knowledge to diagnose a medical problem. I don't see where it says ANYONE qualified actually diagnosed the kid. If that's all Dr D is arguing, sure he's correct, he's just having an argument by himself. I don't think anyone is arguing it's not a disorder. At least I'm not. I'm mostly agreeing with your statement that diagnosing a mental disorder in a kid this young is a silly pursuit. I think it's damn near impossible in this case due to the age of the kid and the complexity of this disorder. You can ask a kid that age all the questions you want in whatever fashion you want, but the kid is still limited in how they express themselves verbally. Especially when they can't possibly understand the problem. Observing symptoms of gender confusion in a kid that age is one thing. Being able to accurately predict if the child actually has the disorder, and whether the disorder will persist into adulthood is another entirely. But hey, whether the gender confusion is real or not for this 5 year old, and whether it persists or not, as the kid grows up the years of being made fun of for the parents battling the school over the bathroom the kid uses is going to be plenty real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 I grew up with a kid that we all knew was gay from a very young age. Whenever we would play superheroes this boy wanted to be Wonder Woman. He had a jump rope that he pretended was his magic lasso. His Dad was a Southern Baptist, a baseball coach, and an avid hunter. His brothers both played all kinds of sports including football, wrestling, and soccer. So I'm pretty sure it wasn't environment that made this kid the way he was. My point in all of this is everyone is different. I don't understand the challenges that a family would face in dealing with a kid like the one in the article. My instincts tell me that it's silly and that he is too young to make such a decision and he should be made to act more like a boy until he's older and can make such a drastic life decision for himself. However, I haven't been through what they have, so I really can't say for sure that they're not making the right call in this. Time will tell in this case I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 And there is not a day that goes by that I don't thank them. Boom! Hang on, I just got here. And BTW the only douchebags in this are whoever felt that plastering this kids life in the news was a good idea. If it was his parents.......douches, the shool........douches, the media........super douches. You think he's going to have a tough life? Kid's going to be totally !@#$ed now. Good jobe SF Chronicle (where I saw this first) Agreed...Sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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