Our Society is soooo F'd Up

[BringBackFergy]

Ok, if we're talking strictly about the lawsuit part of this story, then yes, I completely agree with both of you based on the little we know about this specific case. I stated that above as well, and even called it the "real issue with our society".

 

However, the overly litigious nature of our society has nothing to do with whether GID in children is a real issue. And this child should not be pushed aside because you think the parents are stupid.

 

I think most of our "disagreement" comes from discussing two separate parts of this story as one.

 

 

 

 

I wasnt the one who used the term, and already said it was too harsh. My apologies if you took the quoted post personally, it wasnt from me, and I certainly wasnt aiming it at anyone specific.

 

However, you should not dismiss the long road this child faces just because you dont like the actions of the parent.

 

I also dont know how your children would live "sexually confused lives" if they have a clear understanding of gender and sexuality issues? Environment/Nurture play very little, if at all, into these types of things. The more your children know, the better off they will be.

 

I've been called worse...no offense taken (and I am a douche when clients pay me to be one)

[DrDawkinstein]

Here's the link on the MA convicted murderer who is entitled to reassignment surgery. http://www.cnn.com/2...-surgery-inmate

 

Once again, it is a difficult discussion with my kids...i.e. why someone who murdered his wife should be allowed to have his organs changed at taxpayer expense.

 

My fear, in the Colorado case, is that the parents will force this type of reassignment surgery on a child before the child is legally able to make that decision himself/herself...that is not tolerance for the child (IMO)

 

I dont understand how any of that specific case has to do with what we are discussing, or teaching tolerance of others.

 

If you are upset that taxpayers will have to pay for that specific surgery, that is an entirely different conversation (which I think makes at least 3 completely separate conversations so far, ha!)

 

When I state that I hope people are teaching their children tolerance and acceptance of different people, Im talking about the people they will encounter in their daily lives. Not one particular story about an inmate.

[BringBackFergy]

I dont understand how any of that specific case has to do with what we are discussing, or teaching tolerance of others.

 

If you are upset that taxpayers will have to pay for that specific surgery, that is an entirely different conversation (which I think makes at least 3 completely separate conversations so far, ha!)

 

When I state that I hope people are teaching their children tolerance and acceptance of different people, Im talking about the people they will encounter in their daily lives. Not one particular story about an inmate.

I believe my first post talked about the possibility that this child may want to get the surgery at some point. So the inmate case is relevant to the extent that we have to determine if a child or inmate should be able to have the surgery and on whose dime.

 

Is there a distinction to be drawn between the adult murderer who wants the surgery and the tax dollars used to pay for it and the child (under age 18) whose parents claim that same right to have their child's gender changed?? Sorry to get all metaphysical on you but it is an issue that will strike a nerve with many people on both sides of the argument.

[uncle flap]

Here's a quick story about my grandmother (RIP):

 

Years ago when I was a kid I showed her my excellent report card (hoping for some kind of reward, lol).

 

I don't remember if she slipped me a dollar or whatever but what I do remember is she pulled out an old report card of hers that had perfect marks in everything except penmanship, which was an F or "Poor" or whatever was the worst grade they gave out back in the day.

 

I'd seen my Grandma's handwriting, which was a fine as anyone's, so that grade didn't make sense to me.

 

Well, it turns out, she was left handed. Since "everyone," well "normal" people at least, wrote with their right hands, she was forced to comply.

 

I hope this gives a new perspective for those of you implying that children should just suck it up and live "like everyone else," despite being wired in a different way.

 

Now for the litigious side, I admit I didn't read that whole article in the OP, but to continue w/ the analogy about my Grandma- damn skippy I'd sue a school (as a last resort) if they forced my left handed child to write with her right hand.

 

I realize using a bathroom is a different scenario, but I've heard of schools designating certain bathrooms as unisex to accomodate those grey areas.

 

I am purposely ignoring the tax $ issue because EVERYONE "pays" for stuff they don't like.

Edited March 1, 2013 by uncle flap

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

My sister's opinion piece on this situation:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/opinion/rose-coy-transgender-children/index.html

 

PS - she used to be my brother.

[DrDawkinstein]

I believe my first post talked about the possibility that this child may want to get the surgery at some point. So the inmate case is relevant to the extent that we have to determine if a child or inmate should be able to have the surgery and on whose dime.

 

Is there a distinction to be drawn between the adult murderer who wants the surgery and the tax dollars used to pay for it and the child (under age 18) whose parents claim that same right to have their child's gender changed?? Sorry to get all metaphysical on you but it is an issue that will strike a nerve with many people on both sides of the argument.

 

Good questions...

 

I dont want this to turn into a PPP-worthy debate about Universal Healthcare, so for the sake of this discussion lets just assume that the USA follows in the footsteps of almost every other 1st world country and provides its citizens with the security of health, and we're all ok with it. That also levels the playing field when discussing whether an inmate should receive it or not.

 

Then all that is left to discuss is whether the surgery is to address a valid issue, or if it is simply cosmetic.

 

If a person was born with a 3rd arm growing out of their back, and it was putting pressure on their spine and causing them to live in a tremendous amount of physical pain, would you be against them having it removed?

 

If a person was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was going to have to take expensive medication for the rest of their life, would you be against the state healthcare paying for the meds?

 

GID is a problem that affects both the physical and psychological. Just because GID deals with gender, and peripherally sexuality and genitalia, which therefore makes some people uncomfortable due to our society's weird view on sex, doesnt mean it isnt a real problem. Nor should it be ignored, or dismissed, or made to be "lesser" of a problem.

 

Side note: for the sake of full disclosure, I am hardly an expert or professional. However, I have had two co-workers who were transgender, a friend of mine recently started their transition, and one of my close college buddies ended up marrying a transgender girl, so I have had plenty of interaction and discussions regarding what people faced growing up, how they felt, when they felt it, etc. I dont pretend to know everything about it, but I have been passed a lot of knowledge about what someone in their position goes through.

[KD in CA]

I already have kids..you can keep my name on the list if need be.

Ditto.

 

Personally I hope the guy who doesn't know the difference between "right" and "write" is the one who doesn't procreate.

[DrDawkinstein]

Here's a quick story about my grandmother (RIP):

 

Years ago when I was a kid I showed her my excellent report card (hoping for some kind of reward, lol).

 

I don't remember if she slipped me a dollar or whatever but what I do remember is she pulled out an old report card of hers that had perfect marks in everything except penmanship, which was an F or "Poor" or whatever was the worst grade they gave out back in the day.

 

I'd seen my Grandma's handwriting, which was a fine as anyone's, so that grade didn't make sense to me.

 

Well, it turns out, she was left handed. Since "everyone," well "normal" people at least, wrote with their right hands, she was forced to comply.

 

I hope this gives a new perspective for those of you implying that children should just suck it up and live "like everyone else," despite being wired in a different way.

 

Now for the litigious side, I admit I didn't read that whole article in the OP, but to continue w/ the analogy about my Grandma- damn skippy I'd sue a school (as a last resort) if they forced my left handed child to write with her right hand.

 

I realize using a bathroom is a different scenario, but I've heard of schools designating certain bathrooms as unisex to accomodate those grey areas.

 

I am purposely ignoring the tax $ issue because EVERYONE "pays" for stuff they don't like.

 

Great post and analogy.

 

My sister's opinion piece on this situation:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...dren/index.html

 

PS - she used to be my brother.

 

Wow. Amazing piece. Well said. I hope people can read that and try to put themselves in the shoes of that kid and really understand that the folks affected by GID usually know it from the moment they are aware of life in general.

 

It's not simply a matter of "I like Barbie's more than GI Joe". It's "I am trapped in this cage and everyone is making me be something that I am not".

[Joe Miner]

A child young enough to first start expressing themselves has no idea what identifying as a girl or identifying as a boy is.

 

That's all the parent/s.

 

Most kids 5 and under identify boys and girls based on their looks and the sound of their voices. As they get into the pre-k age they start to identify things such as girls like pink and boys like blue. Some of that is based on learned stereotypes we teach them. But I guarantee you that a boy that age will play with a doll (or any other "girl" toy) just as quick as a girl, and a girl will play with a truck (or any other "boy") toy just as quickly as a boy. There's not a problem with any of that. It only becomes a problem when that kid is being raised by idiots.

 

 

It's not simply a matter of "I like Barbie's more than GI Joe". It's "I am trapped in this cage and everyone is making me be something that I am not".

 

That's not something a kid 5 or younger will ever feel on their own.

[DrDawkinstein]

A child young enough to first start expressing themselves has no idea what identifying as a girl or identifying as a boy is.

 

That's all the parent/s.

 

 

Science, case studies, and reality in general, disagree with you.

[Joe Miner]

Science, case studies, and reality in general, disagree with you.

 

You apparently have no clue about the reality of children.

[BringBackFergy]

http://fourtimesthefun.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-one-where-i-weigh-in-on.html

 

Here's another opinion from a person who actually knew the mother (fellow blogger with triplets). Interesting stuff (especially her failed attempt at treating RSV in a homeopathic way). I know RSV firsthand as my premature daughter had it and had to be intubated for several days...it's a serious virus. This and the other references to the mother being "an attention whore" (not my words) lends some credibility to the theory that the parents may have jumped the gun in calling their son GID at the early 18 month stage.

 

Once again Doc (Daurenstein) I AM NOT persecuting the child...the child is innocent. Just pointing out that some parents might push the matter along for publicity purposes. In this case, that remains to be seen.

[DrDawkinstein]

You apparently have no clue about the reality of children.

 

No I get it. Kids are stupid and do and say all sorts of crazy things while they are just learning how to "be".

 

But if a 5 year old came to you saying he had extreme pain in his stomach, would you just dismiss it and let his appendix burst? They're obviously too young to know anything about the human body. How do they know what real pain feels like?

[KD in CA]

Here's a quick story about my grandmother (RIP):

 

Years ago when I was a kid I showed her my excellent report card (hoping for some kind of reward, lol).

 

I don't remember if she slipped me a dollar or whatever but what I do remember is she pulled out an old report card of hers that had perfect marks in everything except penmanship, which was an F or "Poor" or whatever was the worst grade they gave out back in the day.

 

I'd seen my Grandma's handwriting, which was a fine as anyone's, so that grade didn't make sense to me.

 

Well, it turns out, she was left handed. Since "everyone," well "normal" people at least, wrote with their right hands, she was forced to comply.

 

I hope this gives a new perspective for those of you implying that children should just suck it up and live "like everyone else," despite being wired in a different way.

 

Now for the litigious side, I admit I didn't read that whole article in the OP, but to continue w/ the analogy about my Grandma- damn skippy I'd sue a school (as a last resort) if they forced my left handed child to write with her right hand.

 

I realize using a bathroom is a different scenario, but I've heard of schools designating certain bathrooms as unisex to accomodate those grey areas.

 

I am purposely ignoring the tax $ issue because EVERYONE "pays" for stuff they don't like.

And here we go with the strawmen.....

 

The issue is that this is a FIVE year old. This is not a teenager that has gone through puberty and has a full understanding of their own and others' sexuality and thus the ability to make such a determination on their own. If a five year old boy has been wearing dresses his whole life it's because his parent have bought and dressed him that way.

 

 

A child young enough to first start expressing themselves has no idea what identifying as a girl or identifying as a boy is.

 

That's all the parent/s.

 

Most kids 5 and under identify boys and girls based on their looks and the sound of their voices. As they get into the pre-k age they start to identify things such as girls like pink and boys like blue. Some of that is based on learned stereotypes we teach them. But I guarantee you that a boy that age will play with a doll (or any other "girl" toy) just as quick as a girl, and a girl will play with a truck (or any other "boy") toy just as quickly as a boy. There's not a problem with any of that. It only becomes a problem when that kid is being raised by idiots.

 

That's not something a kid 5 or younger will ever feel on their own.

Exactly right. Kids are just barely beginning to recognize sexuality at the age of 5; they sure as hell haven't been "living with the pain of being forced to live as blah, blah, blah...."

 

 

No I get it. Kids are stupid and do and say all sorts of crazy things while they are just learning how to "be".

 

But if a 5 year old came to you saying he had extreme pain in his stomach, would you just dismiss it and let his appendix burst? They're obviously too young to know anything about the human body. How do they know what real pain feels like?

Ridiculous analogy. Just curious, how many children do you have?

[DrDawkinstein]

Ridiculous analogy. Just curious, how many children do you have?

 

None of my own, but we were all children once, and I have plenty of nieces, nephews, younger cousins, etc in my life.

 

How many transgender people do you have in your life?

[BringBackFergy]

My sister's opinion piece on this situation:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...dren/index.html

 

PS - she used to be my brother.

Great article.

 

I guess the question remains...a 5 or 6 yr old is incapable of giving consent to perform the surgery. Are the parents authorized to make that decision for the child, and if so, what if this is just a "stage"?? (a cold-hearted word I know)

 

edit: What I mean is - who controls the child's body before attaining the age of 18 (as an adult)?? The child can't for legal reasons but once the child is outside the womb, the parent (mother) does not either. hate to be all metaphysical again, but Doc Daurenstein can contribute. Certainly a burst appendix is medically necessary surgery to save a life...but is gender reassignment medically necessary before age 18?

Edited March 1, 2013 by BringBackFergy

[Joe Miner]

 

None of my own, but we were all children once, and I have plenty of nieces, nephews, younger cousins, etc in my life.

 

How many transgender people do you have in your life?

 

You should probably stop talking at any point.

 

Because apparently the newspaper articles you read aren't helping you understand reality.

[BringBackFergy]

None of my own, but we were all children once, and I have plenty of nieces, nephews, younger cousins, etc in my life.

 

How many transgender people do you have in your life?

 

pics??

 

Just kidding...geez, this thread needs some comedy. Where the heck is Chef Jim or San Jose Bills Fan??

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

Great article.

 

I guess the question remains...a 5 or 6 yr old is incapable of giving consent to perform the surgery. Are the parents authorized to make that decision for the child, and if so, what if this is just a "stage"?? (a cold-hearted word I know)

 

The surgery is not a required part of transition. Some have it, some don't.

Kids are just barely beginning to recognize sexuality at the age of 5; they sure as hell haven't been "living with the pain of being forced to live as blah, blah, blah...."

 

The thing is that gender, sexuality, and "equipment" are 3 distinct and separate things. Most of the time they all line up in the traditional way and for those of us who have that make-up it's is impossible to know how it feels when they don't, let alone when those realizations occur.

[shrader]

These bathrooms are clearly designed with anatomy in mind. The presence of urinals doesn't exactly lend itself to the female anatomy. I don't see how any case against the school could be made if they take the stance that their assignment of bathrooms is based solely on anatomy. They've also given this child the option of a separate bathroom, so I don't see how they're discriminating here.