The Big Cat Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 When the team doesn't believe in it's Quarterback, they are going nowhere. The talent level on the Bills overall isn't that different from most of the league, it's just that year in, and year out, they know it's all for naught. It just becomes about playing for personal stats, and the paycheck. Coasting. That's fine, but I don't have any confirmation that is/was/ever has been the case. I have it fourth-hand (full disclosure: player to father to tennis pro to friend to me) that they team felt completely shackled by the coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 That's fine, but I don't have any confirmation that is/was/ever has been the case. I have it fourth-hand (full disclosure: player to father to tennis pro to friend to me) that they team felt completely shackled by the coaching staff. And as I said at the time that they were being lit up by the likes of San Fran and New England, it was very obvious from the outside looking in that the players had zero faith in the defensive coaching staff. The demoralization of the Bills D was extremely obvious to anyone who's ever watched a football game. While this observation was met with contempt, outrage and scorn ("they're professionals, they get paid to try their best") it was obvious that the players felt that they had zero chances of succeeding because their managers were incompetent. The Super Bowl Champions fired their offensive coordinator with 4 weeks left in the regular season. Wanny should have been fired after week five. Had Gailey done so, there's a chance that he'd still be the head coach. And that's why I don't really mind players voting on a coaching referendum with their game efforts. It helps us get rid of shyt coaches. Too bad the Bills D was so talented during the Super Bowl years that a mediocrity like Walt Corey was never fired, even though he coached a star-studded squad to underachieving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) And as I said at the time that they were being lit up by the likes of San Fran and New England, it was very obvious from the outside looking in that the players had zero faith in the defensive coaching staff. The demoralization of the Bills D was extremely obvious to anyone who's ever watched a football game. While this observation was met with contempt, outrage and scorn ("they're professionals, they get paid to try their best") it was obvious that the players felt that they had zero chances of succeeding because their managers were incompetent. The Super Bowl Champions fired their offensive coordinator with 4 weeks left in the regular season. Wanny should have been fired after week five. Had Gailey done so, there's a chance that he'd still be the head coach. And that's why I don't really mind players voting on a coaching referendum with their game efforts. It helps us get rid of shyt coaches. Too bad the Bills D was so talented during the Super Bowl years that a mediocrity like Walt Corey was never fired, even though he coached a star-studded squad to underachieving. For some reason I paid particular attention to 94's performance in the last 2 games. The fish & Jets.It was clear he was playing at quarter throttle if that. The whole D looked demoralized. And we even won the last game. Coaching had to be the reason. Edited February 28, 2013 by Best Player Available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 And as I said at the time that they were being lit up by the likes of San Fran and New England, it was very obvious from the outside looking in that the players had zero faith in the defensive coaching staff. The demoralization of the Bills D was extremely obvious to anyone who's ever watched a football game. While this observation was met with contempt, outrage and scorn ("they're professionals, they get paid to try their best") it was obvious that the players felt that they had zero chances of succeeding because their managers were incompetent. The Super Bowl Champions fired their offensive coordinator with 4 weeks left in the regular season. Wanny should have been fired after week five. Had Gailey done so, there's a chance that he'd still be the head coach. And that's why I don't really mind players voting on a coaching referendum with their game efforts. It helps us get rid of shyt coaches. Too bad the Bills D was so talented during the Super Bowl years that a mediocrity like Walt Corey was never fired, even though he coached a star-studded squad to underachieving. Well the player source happened to be on that side of the ball (quite a bit)...so...yeah.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I concur with the growing consensus that trading our 1st round pick to the niners is a good idea. For fun, I started working out where I would people in different schemes and I don't know about all the doom and gloom that people have been tracking. First of all, we haven't hit free agency yet. Personally, I'm hoping for Pace at LB and Landry at SS from the Jets, who already know how Pettine's system works. Landry should get paid, and Pace should have a low base, high incentive short term contract since there are only a few more good years. Moore would likely be a relatively affordable renewal for DE/OLB Second, there's Pettine's system to take into account. Pettine has talked about a hybrid 3-4, 4-3 and more recently utilizing a "nickel base", and considering his background this is sounding like a 3-3-5 system, where players are highly interchangeable around the field. Anderson was utilized as a hybrid DE/OLB for the Pats, and Moore would fit into that as well I believe. Another aspect is that Pettine likes his DE's not only to set an edge, but to attack the quarterback, like he did with Ngnata with the Ravens, and like JJ Watt is used by the Texans. Suddenly the front seven looks like this NT: Kyle Williams/Marcell Dareus/Troup DE: Marcell Dareus, Mario Williams, Alex Carrington OLB: Mark Anderson/Kyle Moore/Nigel Bradham ILB: Moats, Sheppard, Morrison Ok, the ILB corps leave much to be desired, but Minter and Teo would be decent second round pick improvements, followed up by a 4th rounder to help with depth That leaves the secondary. A lot of people have suggested that Aaron Williams be moved to safety due to his athleticism and physicality but getting beat in 1 on 1. While he isn't the best fit for SS, I do think he could do well as a NB if that indeed is going to be a base (or very common subpackage). I am somewhat worried about our #2 CB, but it looks like McKelvin is our guy for now (ugh) but there is still time for Rodgers and Brooks to take that away from him. I am still holding out hope for landing Landry, since he would make for a great 1-2 safety punch with Byrd (who we say we are going to franchise) as that open up room for use in the 46 formation. I did a post about that before, but the 46 is a variation of the 3-4 where there there are actually 4 down linemen, with the NT directly on center, the weakside DE (Mario) is in charge of quarterback rushing and breaking up reverses/counter plays, and the SS comes down to act like a linebacker, which would be a perfect fit for the athletic Landry. Am I sitting with a big old pitcher of Kool-Aid as I write this? Yes, with an extra bottle of bourbon but that's beside the point. While things aren't good, we can shuffle our players to minimize the loss of the old, dead weight players and we have the cap space to keep the ones we like, draw in some new ones in FA, and few choice picks in the draft can get us into fighting form (if not elite status) fairly quickly. I even hate myself when I cherry pick one point from a well thought out post...But KW is not a 3-4 NT...Not saying the Bills wont try (and fail when they do) to play him there...But he's not a good option...This has pretty much been proven, with terrible results, when they went 3-4 last time... Similarly...Dareus, IMHO is FAR better suited to be a 315-320 lb 3-4 DE than he is a 345 lb 3-4 DT...I've heard Dareus comment before, on more than one occasion, that basically he needs to be bigger to play NT...That (again IMHO) is the worst possible message for the future of Marcell Dareus in the NFL...He has to play at around 320-325 to be consistently effective (he was 318 at his Combine where he showed his incredible athleticism). And I don't think he's an effective NT anyway...I watch Dareus a lot...I mean a ton during games...And I've went back on many occasions and watched him again...When he gets doubled he completely disappears. I'm not going to say it's an effort thing because I'm not going to point that finger...But he stands straight up (looking to bat the pass down if it's a pass play) and he's done for that play...When he gets singled up on a Guard or Center he does much better, usually gets decent penetration, and he seems to even hustle more...I just have this belief that you have to put Dareus where he will be double-teamed the least...And that's NOT at NT in a 3-4... So anyway...Moral of this story is...Unless Troup has been touched by the hand of God and comes back 100% healthy...The Bills literally have no one at NT for a 3-4 Defense...At least that's how I see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think you're right KOKBILLS but is it a requirement of the Bills new D that they have a "traditional" nose tackle? Did the Jets ever replace Kris Jenkins after he left? Asking cause I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I think you're right KOKBILLS but is it a requirement of the Bills new D that they have a "traditional" nose tackle? Did the Jets ever replace Kris Jenkins after he left? Asking cause I don't know. Good question...The Jets replaced Jenkins with Po'uha...He's a 325 lb plug guy...Not a pass rusher but stout enough vs the run and strong...He's a role player for sure...I think you have to have a guy that can anchor well vs. the double team...And I don't see KW or Dareus filling that role...Not KW because he's too small...And not Dareus because, at least I believe, he does not like that role... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I think Baltimore's starting NT (the Polynesian guy who starts ahead of Terrence Cody) is a free agent this year. I wonder if the Bills are talking about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 ... So anyway...Moral of this story is...Unless Troup has been touched by the hand of God and comes back 100% healthy...The Bills literally have no one at NT for a 3-4 Defense...At least that's how I see it... Depends entirely on what kind of 34 scheme you're playing and the personnel you have to play it. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Yikes. On paper we look pretty thin. What a difference a year makes. Last year it looked like the LB's were a little weak as a group, but the D line and DB's looked to have a solid mix of talent and depth. Right now it looks like there's quite a few holes to fill. As we saw last year, what you have on paper doesn't necessarily mean a lot and maybe the very different scheme will lead to very different results. It will be an interesting FA period and draft. At the surface looks like there are a lot of holes to fill throughout the entire roster. Jadeveon Clowney, and C.J. Mosely could be #1 and #2 off the board next draft. If we're ever going to re-up, this would be the draft to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Not bad for three years of Nix's rebuilding. and the focus on defense !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I would argue that Dareus has had his peak performance while he was our nose tackle when he subbed for Williams. But really, we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I even hate myself when I cherry pick one point from a well thought out post...But KW is not a 3-4 NT...Not saying the Bills wont try (and fail when they do) to play him there...But he's not a good option...This has pretty much been proven, with terrible results, when they went 3-4 last time... Similarly...Dareus, IMHO is FAR better suited to be a 315-320 lb 3-4 DE than he is a 345 lb 3-4 DT...I've heard Dareus comment before, on more than one occasion, that basically he needs to be bigger to play NT...That (again IMHO) is the worst possible message for the future of Marcell Dareus in the NFL...He has to play at around 320-325 to be consistently effective (he was 318 at his Combine where he showed his incredible athleticism). And I don't think he's an effective NT anyway...I watch Dareus a lot...I mean a ton during games...And I've went back on many occasions and watched him again...When he gets doubled he completely disappears. I'm not going to say it's an effort thing because I'm not going to point that finger...But he stands straight up (looking to bat the pass down if it's a pass play) and he's done for that play...When he gets singled up on a Guard or Center he does much better, usually gets decent penetration, and he seems to even hustle more...I just have this belief that you have to put Dareus where he will be double-teamed the least...And that's NOT at NT in a 3-4... So anyway...Moral of this story is...Unless Troup has been touched by the hand of God and comes back 100% healthy...The Bills literally have no one at NT for a 3-4 Defense...At least that's how I see it... I assume I'm wrong with this question......but didn't KW have his best year in 2010 as the NT in the 3-4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 We have three, maybe four starting caliber players on our defense. Help is needed at every single position, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I assume I'm wrong with this question......but didn't KW have his best year in 2010 as the NT in the 3-4? They gave up an absolute ton of rushing yards...Dead last in the NFL in 2010...Williams was a big part of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 They gave up an absolute ton of rushing yards...Dead last in the NFL in 2010...Williams was a big part of that... Yet that was considered his breakout year where he made the pro-bowl etc. I'm guessing this is more reflective of modern day pro-bowl voting than KW's ability as a NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Got to assume the team will be bringing in some free agents and likely Byrd back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 With Barnett, McGee, Wilson and Kelsay gone, the Bills have now parted ways with former captains and chief contributors/defensive leaders from the past half-decade. I started this thread because as I look at where we are RIGHT NOW, it's tough to determine where leadership will come from. More importantly to the re-build, it's tough to determine what the Bills' identity will be--something that's alluded them since...2004, I guess? Right now the Bills have a whopping 21 defensive players under contract for next season. Take a look at who we got and let me know what you think, because I think it's going to be a tough year for this unit: Corner Backs (5) Ron Brooks Crezdon Butler Justin Rogers Aaron Williams Stephon Gilmore (though he's listed as a DB on bb.com) Defensive Backs (3) TJ Heath Mana Silva Da'Norris Searcy Defensive Ends (2) Mark Anderson Mario Williams Defensive Tackles (5) Alex Carrington Marcell Dareus Jay Ross Torell Troup Kyle Williams Linebackers (6) Kelvin Sheppard Nigel Bradham Greg Lloyd Arthur Moats Kirk Morrison Chris White Jarron Gilbert is in the mix on the DL as well. Re-upped for 2 years with the Bills in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 With Barnett, McGee, Wilson and Kelsay gone, the Bills have now parted ways with former captains and chief contributors/defensive leaders from the past half-decade. I started this thread because as I look at where we are RIGHT NOW, it's tough to determine where leadership will come from. More importantly to the re-build, it's tough to determine what the Bills' identity will be--something that's alluded them since...2004, I guess? Right now the Bills have a whopping 21 defensive players under contract for next season. Take a look at who we got and let me know what you think, because I think it's going to be a tough year for this unit: Corner Backs (5) Ron Brooks Crezdon Butler Justin Rogers Aaron Williams Stephon Gilmore (though he's listed as a DB on bb.com) Defensive Backs (3) TJ Heath Mana Silva Da'Norris Searcy Defensive Ends (2) Mark Anderson Mario Williams Defensive Tackles (5) Alex Carrington Marcell Dareus Jay Ross Torell Troup Kyle Williams Linebackers (6) Kelvin Sheppard Nigel Bradham Greg Lloyd Arthur Moats Kirk Morrison Chris White where are the linebackers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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