Jauronimo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Yes, I am being over the top about totally open borders. The present system is already heavily favored to accept educated immigrants... How is that working? Honestly, who is to really define the word victim? Doesn't a victim lack control over their situation in many circumstances. How can a power structure define who's a victim and who's not? Quite a vicious circle this is. Take a breath, MDP. Had you understood any part of the original post it would be clear that we're discussing those who identify themselves as victims. People who refuse to take ownership of their situation in life. Those look to blame events past, present or even imaginary for their lot in life. As for the bolded bull ****, what part of your nonsense do you find circular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) I felt like a victim Oct 23rd 2007. My ranch and business was burned down by wildfires. FEMA was and is useless. The insurance company did everything they could to not pay me and were pretty good at it. Took years of court battles to get a few pennies. Same for the parties responsible for the fires, 5 years of court battles to get pennies on the dollar. No Congress approved $50 billion dollar bailout package approved or even talked about. Foreclosure and then bankruptcy court. Ya. that's when I felt like a victim. Edited January 30, 2013 by Fan in San Diego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 As for the bolded bull ****, what part of your nonsense do you find circular? TYTT's example of the Irish immigrants to this country. The Irish were very much victims and have in turned victimised back when obtaining power and social status. SameOldBills is right in what they said. Take a look @ AD's insistence that the lack of corporal punishment is the root of this problem. That is like treating the disease with what's causing the disease. Violence begets violence. I felt like a victim Oct 23rd 2007. My ranch and business was burned down by wildfires. FEMA was and is useless. The insurance company did everything they could to not pay me and were pretty good at it. Took years of court battles to get a few pennies. Same for the parties responsible for the fires, 5 years of court battles to get pennies on the dollar. No Congress approved $50 billion dollar bailout package approved or even talked about. Foreclosure and then bankruptcy court. Ya. that's when I felt like a victim. You have a very valid reason to feel this way. They were hoping you would quit and give up. Honestly, I have never really felt it yet. I suppose... Some would say how my last name is pronounced... But that is silly, a lot of people have lost a link to their ancestry. I am of German-Polish ancestry and my grandfather and his brothers changed the pronunciation of our last name by adding an apostrophe so as to make it sound Irish and get a job on the railroad. Anyway, that is under my control... I can demand it to go back to the original. Again... The above is silly... I have never felt like a victim and I hope it stays that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 TYTT's example of the Irish immigrants to this country. The Irish were very much victims and have in turned victimised back when obtaining power and social status. SameOldBills is right in what they said. Take a look @ AD's insistence that the lack of corporal punishment is the root of this problem. That is like treating the disease with what's causing the disease. Violence begets violence. Except that SOB said nothing pertaining to your rambling attempt at a point, TYTT's example is demonstrative of a group of people who did not claim to be victims or cling to a victim mentality, you've missed AD's point entirely and I'm not interested in explaining it to you and no one is discussing violence. Once again, what the !@#$ are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Why do you even try to rationalize with EII? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Except that SOB said nothing pertaining to your rambling attempt at a point, TYTT's example is demonstrative of a group of people who did not claim to be victims or cling to a victim mentality, you've missed AD's point entirely and I'm not interested in explaining it to you and no one is discussing violence. Once again, what the !@#$ are you talking about? I am sorry... Just got a chuckle that you used the abbreviation: SOB... Ahhh. Is corporal punishment NOT violence through control. And yes... Many Irish did claim victimhood. It was all swept under the rug through revisionist history when power was obtained. Anyway, the bottom line is that they still were allowed to have a foothold in this country. That is all I ask for everybody. Why do you even try to rationalize with EII? What's your problem? We don't all have to agree. 15 yards for piling on. I think we need to discuss violence. It is the base root of it all. Edited January 30, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I think we need to discuss violence. It is the base root of it all. Violence is not the root of the victim mentality. Pick up a copy of Life at the Bottom for more comprehensive discussion. Here's a quick description. the twentieth century's intellectuals have provided members of the underclass with a battery of rationalizations by which they can shift the blame for their misery away from their actions and attitudes and can unleash their hatred of everyone who challenges their outlook One of the major subjects that the work revolves around is on the various worldviews (Weltanschauung) of individual people, societies, and the impositions of society on those within it. Dalrymple states further that "...everyone has a Weltanschauung, a worldview, whether he knows it or not...Their ideas make themselves manifest even in the language they use."[15] The example stated is the use of passive speech by "those who refuse to accept responsibility for their acts". The type of language that the underclass uses, according to Dalrymple, professes their own ideas and ideology about the world.[15] Another major related theme that expands upon this trend is the philosophy of social determinism held by those Dalrymple interviewed, and how the welfare state and the socialist tenets within it help feed this mindset. However, Dalrymple never directly accuses socialism and the welfare state in his essays, instead focusing on the beliefs and reasons for why the patients and inmates take the destructive actions that they did. This is expressed with determinism in that they believe that their actions must be based on their childhoods or the failure of society in the past to help them.[16][17] Those patients that Dalrymple speaks with "seem surprised and tell him that he's the first person they've ever talked to who suggests that they can change their lives for the better," further emphasizing the mindset in which their society has placed them.[18] An important subset to this deterministic theme, related to the original worldview idea as well, is the lack of personal responsibility that those in the underclass accept for their own actions. An example of this, which is repeated numerous times throughout the collection, is the statement, "The knife went in", in reference to the words of one of Dalrymple's patients who was in jail for murder. This sort of speech makes a person's actions seem like they are something separate from the person themselves and that they have no control over it.[19] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_at_the_Bottom:_The_Worldview_That_Makes_the_Underclass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 When in doubt, look to Irish immigration, and see how we've done. You offered us a closed door, no services... no government... Yet here we are, not just one of you, but amongst the strongest. My grandfather, being from eastern Europe (Bulgaria), had to change his name to a more Anglo sounding one, Evans, to be even considered for jobs. The work force at that time, at Stelco for example, was controlled by the English. He made out just fine but could have done much better. Never took a handout at all. Didn't need to because I imagine he had pride, dignity and self respect. Didn't know him that well because he died when I was 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 That is why we should open the border with Mexico the same way the border was open for the Irish... Great things can happen! http://www.historypl...ine/america.htm The irish didn't come here looking for handouts, and trying to get on disability, or social security as fast as they could. They came here because there was nothing for them back home and came to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Get it right: Purple MONKEY dishwasher. :-) Yes, I am being over the top about totally open borders. The present system is already heavily favored to accept educated immigrants... How is that working? Well the system absolutely should favor educated people...the problem is we don't let enough of them in and it takes forever. And also, we have some stupid rule about equal number from various countries when an overwhelming number of the best immigrants come from just a few such as India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The irish didn't come here looking for handouts, and trying to get on disability, or social security as fast as they could. They came here because there was nothing for them back home and came to work. The Irish came looking for a sliver of the American dream. A potato in every pot and a sheep in every bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I am sorry... Just got a chuckle that you used the abbreviation: SOB... Ahhh. Is corporal punishment NOT violence through control. And yes... Many Irish did claim victimhood. It was all swept under the rug through revisionist history when power was obtained. Anyway, the bottom line is that they still were allowed to have a foothold in this country. That is all I ask for everybody. I've done research beyond extensive on this topic, and there was no victim mentality associated with the Irish immigration. The Irish were, infact, denied most opportunity; yet they took what was given (the horrors of war, indentured servitude, and orphanages), huddled together, and made a life for themselves and for their future generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Did you read the link? There are a lot of similarities in the stories between then two immigrant groups And yes, we do share a border... Just a really wide one: The Atlantic Ocean. Not all immigrants came through Ellis Island. Millions upon millions of immigrants came through various other ports of entry. That's like saying Vietnam shares a border with Russia called "China". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) That's like saying Vietnam shares a border with Russia called "China". Not @ all. A body of water like the Atlantic is of international nature. No different than the Rio Grande except it is really wide (with a bigger stretch of no-man's land in between) and takes a heck of lot longer to cross. China is a sovereign nation in between. Big difference. Maybe Ireland is a bit north and really shares it with Canada. Jump in a boat and the next stop is US. Step one's feet in the Rio Grande, next stop Texas. A better example is like saying Alaska shares a border with Russia. Who cares how wide the border is? Edited January 30, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 lol...we're really doing this argument...nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 lol...we're really doing this argument...nice LoL. Sorry. I do agree with you about then and now and "the victim complex." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not @ all. A body of water like the Atlantic is of international nature. No different than the Rio Grande except it is really wide (with a bigger stretch of no-man's land in between) and takes a heck of lot longer to cross. China is a sovereign nation in between. Big difference. Maybe Ireland is a bit north and really shares it with Canada. Jump in a boat and the next stop is US. Step one's feet in the Rio Grande, next stop Texas. A better example is like saying Alaska shares a border with Russia. Who cares how wide the border is? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) So technically all countries share a border so long as they have access to a river that flows out to the sea...hehe Edited January 30, 2013 by SameOldBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) So technically all countries share a border so long as they have access to a river that flows out to the sea...hehe LoL. No. As long as no soverign country is blocking them in between. :-P Honestly, what is the difference between the Bering Strait between the US and Russia and the Atlantic Ocean between New Hampshire and Portugal. LoL... Just a lot of water. Go tell somebody in NH that they share a border with Portugal... I jest I jest... LoL... Edited January 30, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 LoL. No. As long as no soverign country is blocking them in between. :-P Honestly, what is the difference between the Bering Strait between the US and Russia and the Atlantic Ocean between New Hampshire and Portugal. LoL... Just a lot of water. Go tell somebody in NH that they share a border with Portugal... I jest I jest... LoL... there is no sovereign country between us and Iran if we take the right path..our Iranian neighbors are a threat to our border imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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