Buddy Nix and addressing the QB position

[GG]

No and no. I wasn't defending his actions, i said they should get him fired.

 

That's not what he wrote

[Green Lightning]

Rubbish. Take a look at what the 49ers' record was the year before they drafted Kaepernick. They had been a bad team for a long time.

 

Oh Christ --- are you kidding me? San Fran was one game away from the SB without Kaepernick at QB. What the Hell, it's okay to be a hater of the GM and QB but pick a made-up argument that can't be debunked so easily.

 

maybe you should check the defensive stats from last year. where are these strong trenches you speak of? are they the trenches that give up 50 points to every .500 or better team?

 

buddy hasn't done much IMO. no "diamonds in the rough". give him a double Fail for not addressing qb whatsoever. teams an embarrassment presently.............some of that blame goes directly to Mr. Nix IMO.

 

I don't disagree that Buddy gets the some of the blame. I think it's time for him to go. I blame him for sticking with bad coaches - just saying he did do some good things here. I just don't get the hate, name calling and general bile. Cherry picking picks we wish we would have made can be said about any GM. Our D and O lines are going to be fine with better coaches and this team is not a gut job. There's good things to build on.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Green Lightning

[Lurker]

I believe the crux of the matter is that Buddy believe Chan when he told him that he could win with Fitz, so he turned his attention elsewhere because this team had so many holes.

I also agree with this.

 

IMO, Buddy's plan all along was to build up the complimentary talent (particularly on defense) before drafting a QB. Fitz was the caretaker who could manage games until the structure was in place.

 

As much as Buddy may have liked a guy like Russell Wilson (which, I believe he was on record as saying), throwing him into the Bills situation (ie, subpar defense, limited WRs) wouldn't have allowed for the same success he had in Seattle. Seattle had the 4th ranked defense during the regular season and is still #1 among the playoff teams. That's a major safety net for a rookie QB.

 

Without a once in a generation pick like Andrew Luck or RGIII (pre-surgery), it would be tough to fathom an Andy Dalton-type QB outplaying Fitz in 2011 or 2012, given the team in place around him...

[Kelly the Dog]

That's not what he wrote

True. But I wasn't doing what he said either.Ha. I should have said no and no and no. I wasn't not defending his actions while at the same time defending the person. I was barely even talking about Buddy Nix. I was talking about Pete Carroll and the posters here in the thesis of the OP, which, again, wasn't not defending his actions while at the same time defending the person.

 

Then I said he should have been drafting players all along but he screwed up, which wasn't not defending his actions while at the same time defending the person.

 

Then I said he liked guys other GMs didnt like who turned out to be good to show he did has some grasp on QB talent. He didn't get a chance to draft Newton. So that didn't fit not defending his actions while at the same time defending the person either.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[JohnC]

The irony being after missing on whitehurst and Jackson the board would be running him out of town.

 

Carroll was very active and aggressive in upgrading the qb position. He tried with multiple efforts to find the right qb. Compare his persistance and aggressiveness to the passivity of the GM who has a 16-32 record. While Buddy is still looking Carroll is now well situated at the qb spot. When Carroll's team played Buddy's team it won 50-17. Carroll certainly has a better grasp on building a team than Buddy does. If you doubt that view then look at the record.

[Kelly the Dog]

Carroll was very active and aggressive in upgrading the qb position. He tried with multiple efforts to find the right qb. Compare his persistance and aggressiveness to the passivity of the GM who has a 16-32 record. While Buddy is still looking Carroll is now well situated at the qb spot. When Carroll's team played Buddy's team it won 50-17. Carroll certainly has a better grasp on building a team than Buddy does. If you doubt that view then look at the record.

That had nothing to do with what he said. Like myself in my OP, he was talking about reactions of the posters on this board, and not at all the comparison of who is better, Pete Carroll or Buddy Nix.

 

I do apologize to you for misreading your post above though, and corrected it.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[mannc]

Oh Christ --- are you kidding me? San Fran was one game away from the SB without Kaepernick at QB. What the Hell, it's okay to be a hater of the GM and QB but pick a made-up argument that can't be debunked so easily.

 

 

Hey Genius, in 2010, the 49ers went 6-10 in the weakest division in football and fired their head coach. So they must have had a few other holes to fill when they drafted Kaepernick in the 2011 draft. Next time, please pick an argument that can't be debunked so easily.

[Malazan]

You're arguing for a reasoned response and analysis to people who just want to yell.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Carroll was very active and aggressive in upgrading the qb position. He tried with multiple efforts to find the right qb. Compare his persistance and aggressiveness to the passivity of the GM who has a 16-32 record. While Buddy is still looking Carroll is now well situated at the qb spot. When Carroll's team played Buddy's team it won 50-17. Carroll certainly has a better grasp on building a team than Buddy does. If you doubt that view then look at the record.

 

kelly nailed what i was getting at - if he had traded good picks for a bad backup and given him a nice contract, then brought over his OCs qb of choice, chased after kevin kolb then overpaid another backup who got benched for a midround rookie... the board would be calling him a crazy old man thats just throwing resources at the wall and seeing if anything sticks. carroll is certainly ahead right now in the head to head though.

 

if buddy drafts his franchise qb this year, the tune will change quickly. im running short on patience too, so i certainly understand. hes here for this free agency and draft though, so im hoping that his grand scheme comes together.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoSaint

[....lybob]

On average two starting QBs come from any particular draft, of the starters about 25% are franchise type QBs, 25% are QBs that the fans and coaches can live with and 50% are QBs you'd like to replace with someone better- that's why it's hard for anyone to find a quality QB .

[JohnC]

 

Then I said he liked guys other GMs didnt like who turned out to be good to show he did has some grasp on QB talent. He didn't get a chance to draft Newton. So that didn't fit not defending his actions while at the same time defending the person either.

 

In the year that Newton was drafted he was the top rated qb although there were some skeptics doubting that his game would translate in the NFL. There is little challenge in recognizing the top rated qb when there is a solid consensus in ranking. The real challenge is finding a prospect when there are legitimate concerns about the particular player. Nix found reasons why not to draft certain qbs. Some more venturous and visionary teams found reasons to draft qbs who had certain questions regarding their abilities. It worked out for those teams while the Bills are stll searching.

 

There is a bigger issue with respect to Nix's three year draft record that has little to do with finding a qb. His body of work is simply pedestrian. That is the more important issue that a lot of people forget in this interminable qb debate.

[BillsVet]

As has been said repeatedly here, 2 other teams began significant rebuilds in 2010: Washington and Seattle. They had several things in common with Buffalo that year, including a new GM, new HC, did not have a clear answer at QB (I'm aware of McNabb in WAS), and were switching defensive schemes.

 

It's okay to say Nix has been an abject failure. And as bad as he was at finding a QB, he might have been worse on defense where the team spent huge resources to upgrade a unit that ranked at the bottom of the league for his entire tenure.

[JohnC]

That had nothing to do with what he said. Like myself in my OP, he was talking about reactions of the posters on this board, and not at all the comparison of who is better, Pete Carroll or Buddy Nix.

 

I do apologize to you for misreading your post above though, and corrected it.

 

No apologies are necessary.

 

My major criticism of BN is over his body of work. Too much emphasis is placed on the qb issue. By making some critical mistakes he delayed the rebuilding process. It should have been much more advanced by now.

 

I agree with you tha Nix is going to draft a qb prospect in the first or second round. Because he was slow to pull the trigger on that position more developmental time will be required that will set this franchise back. It has been the missed opportunities that have aggravated the most with Nix.

 

I do enjoy our discourses. In general our views are very similar. Our differences are mostly on the fringes.

Edited January 25, 2013 by JohnC

[Kelly the Dog]

There is a bigger issue with respect to Nix's three year draft record that has little to do with finding a qb. His body of work is simply pedestrian. That is the more important issue that a lot of people forget in this interminable qb debate.

And for other threads.

[NoSaint]

 

 

In the year that Newton was drafted he was the top rated qb although there were some skeptics doubting that his game would translate in the NFL. There is little challenge in recognizing the top rated qb when there is a solid consensus in ranking. The real challenge is finding a prospect when there are legitimate concerns about the particular player. Nix found reasons why not to draft certain qbs. Some more venturous and visionary teams found reasons to draft qbs who had certain questions regarding their abilities. It worked out for those teams while the Bills are stll searching.

 

There is a bigger issue with respect to Nix's three year draft record that has little to do with finding a qb. His body of work is simply pedestrian. That is the more important issue that a lot of people forget in this interminable qb debate.

 

with regards to the qb - its an interesting spot. would the cards, titans, jags, vikes, etc... be in better spots had they invested elsewhere until they found the right guy, instead of just taking the available guy?

 

this will almost certainly be nixs last shot. hopefully its also the year he sees the right guy and makes any needed moves to get him. if we walk into another season of fitz and nothing else, his legacy will be failure. if we walk into the season with a franchise, 8-10 year guy as nix likes to call them, and still get to carry dareus instead of gabbert, spiller instead of clausen or tebow, etc... it will be much easier to forgive him for missing on wilson, or kaepernick (anyone else notice that dalton is fading off that list quickly?)

[Adam]

Someone doesn't like Marcel Dareus?

[John from Riverside]

This is my feelings on this situation....

 

I feel like Chan Gailey made made 3 sins that you simply could not do as a coach....and ultimately they got him fired

 

- He got too into the QB that he had spent time learning and mastering his system

- He did not make an effort to improve the QB position AND he also did made sure he didnt bring anyone in that might have pushed Ryan Fitzpatrick......when you dont create competiton at every position on the field you are asking for it....because you need a BACKUP

- His inability to pick assistants.....either the assistants didnt want to work for him or just bad judgement in picking them

 

 

- Now.....keep in mind Chan did do this at every position......he was quick to bench Trent Edwards....he was quick to bench that OT we brought in from the Raiders even though we signed him as a free agent......and he was RIGHT to bring CJ Spiller along slowly and not overwork him (yes I said that.....CJ Spiller is always going to need a RB to relieve him even as a starter if we want him to get through the year healthy)

 

- But for some inexplicable reason he refused to do this at the QB position....I mean seriously....a 6th round draft pick is supposed to come in and actually compete? How often does that really happen......he never got the CHANCE to unseat Fitzpatrick.....Thigpen? They were AFRAID to put him in games when Fitz was either hurt or stinking it up. The Texas QB? That guy had so many personal issues there was no way he was going to lead this team on the field.....be real. Chan Gailey CREATED that disaster so that Ryan Fitzpatrick could sit there and know he was the unquestioned leader on this team....not because his play was proving it....but because Chan made sure there were no other viable options

 

It reminds me of that movie I saw last night "Powerball" The coach of the team refused to play the guys he wanted him to play so he just basically cut, traded, or whatever every viable option until the coach had NO CHOICE but to play his guys. That isnt gonna work for us.

 

You have to have real competition at the quarterback position every year.......you have to have quality guys thinking they might have a shot at at playing time. We need to bring in a veteran QB.....and we need to draft 1 or 2 QBs in this draft........wash away the stench of the last coaches decisions. Let those QBs be friends if they want to......but knowing that they either perform or sit because there is someone else worthy of playing behind them.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I agree that Gailey to a large extent tethered his job to Fitz. That bad bet was a losing hand from the start. With respect to T. Jackson being better than Fitz, who cares? Neither are legitimate starters in this league. Debating whether a qb should be ranked 28th or 30th or 20th for that matter is meaningless. Neither similar type of mediocre qbs are going to lead their team anywhere.

 

Would it have mattered if T. Jackson played last year? Not to me. What mattered more to me was the HCing issue. Why was CG so resistant to playing either of the backups simply for the purpose of changing things up?

That is exactly the point. Neither is a superstar, but either could have gotten on a hot streak and won a few games. Not having the will-power to even attempt to get one of them ready to put on the field is a failure.

CG also exhibited stubborness and rigidity in the way he handled Spiller. In my view on the qb issue the blatant void at the position belongs to the GM, not the HC. Even if it was CG who lobbied hard for his Harvard boy, it was the GM who had no one credible in the pipeline to back up the starting qb.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread is really saying they think Buddy has handled the QB position well. It's very clear that he has not. He has sent a stream of cast-offs and ne'er-do-wells in Gailey's direction. Gailey did absolutely nothing with them. He didn't fix Trent Edwards; he couldn't do anything with Vince Young; he left Jackson in street clothes his entire time in Buffalo. You are absolutely correct that Nix should be of his own mind on players. Just because Chan Gailey had a woody for Fitzpatrick does not mean Nix can blow off his own objectivity as well. As the GM of football, he screwed up here on several levels: he bought the line Gailey fed him that Fitzpatrick was a starter in this league (at least publicly), he brought in Young and Jackson and to a lesser degree Smith and Thigpen and none of them were suited to run the offense Gailey was trying to build around his star Harvard QB, he didn't seem to care about Gailey's lack of a backup plan with the parts he had. It didn't happen, but if Fitzpatrick had gone down for any length of time, the Bills would not have been able to compete at all without reinventing the offense from the ground up.

Should CG have been fired? I have no problem with that course of action. However, the person holding the door for Chan's exit should be the same person who hired him. In my view Brandon made a major mistake when he allowed BN to stay. Now the person who has to a large extent mis-evaluated draft picks and players is the same person who is heading the search for additional prospects. That makes no sense to me. It's easy to blame the underlings when things go wrong; but the real problem is the boss, the GM. If you want to instill a culture of accountability in an organization then it is imperative to hold individuals accountable. It didn't happen here!

16-32 would get both of them canned with many owners.

[Mr. WEO]

I was talking about Pete Carroll. He struck out with his first two (including the same guy Nix struck out with), his third was beat out by a rookie, and he got it right on the fourth. You people cannot seem to read. I wasn't defending his previous choices. In fact, just the opposite. I was saying the guy who made the choice you guys complain about, made a bunch of bad choices, including the same one, before they got it right.

 

 

No and no. I wasn't defending his actions, i said they should get him fired.

 

EDIT: as GG correctly pointed out. I misread your post. But I don't agree with it once I reread it either. And explained why below to GG.

 

Pete Carroll took his starting Qb, MAtt Hasselbeck, to the Div title game after beating defending SB champs GB (despite being a 7-9 team).

 

He had picked up Whitehurst as a backup and potential replacement to Hasselbeck. When that didn't look likely, he brought in Jackson after getting rid of Hasselbeck. This got them another 7-9 season but no playoffs.

 

He then unloaded TJ and the Bills thought enough of him to pick him up. He brought in the highly regarded backup Matt Flynn. Despite this, he also picked Wilson.

 

Buddy already had Fitz on the roster when he rolled off the hay wagon as GM in Buffalo. Subsequently he would draft and release Levi Brown, sign and release Vince Young and trade for, but never suit up Jackson.

 

As anyne can see, the activity of these two individuals (Nix and Carroll) in regard to constantly looking to improve and upgrade the position of QB are polar opposites. Carroll was constantly looking to improve. Buddy did absolutely nothing. Your comparison couldn't be less supportive of your argument.

 

You've brought this up in several other threads. Why did it suddenly strike you to bring it up again in it's own thread? Just curious.

[JohnC]

with regards to the qb - its an interesting spot. would the cards, titans, jags, vikes, etc... be in better spots had they invested elsewhere until they found the right guy, instead of just taking the available guy?

 

this will almost certainly be nixs last shot. hopefully its also the year he sees the right guy and makes any needed moves to get him. if we walk into another season of fitz and nothing else, his legacy will be failure. if we walk into the season with a franchise, 8-10 year guy as nix likes to call them, and still get to carry dareus instead of gabbert, spiller instead of clausen or tebow, etc... it will be much easier to forgive him for missing on wilson, or kaepernick (anyone else notice that dalton is fading off that list quickly?)

 

There are still major flaws on this roster. The LBing corps may be the worst in the NFL. For a MLB Shepperd has little instinct for the position that requires instinct. The receiving corps is very mediocre. Now there seems to be some concerns with the defensive backfield group. Finding a good qb prospect (current preference is Tyler Wilson) doesn't mean that this team is ready to move much up the rankings. My point is that there are many staffing issues beside the qb position.By no means is this a complete team.There is still a long way to go before this team becomes a serious team.