Is the Patriots Dynasty Tarnished?

[Punch]

touche

 

Again, facts:

 

Tom Brady:

First 6 years of his career starting his highest TD total per season was 28.

 

Since then, his lowest TD total per season 28. With a 50 burger in there and a few high 30s as well.

 

First 6 seasons highest yards per season just over 4,100.

 

Since then, his lowest yards per season 3,900 with two 4,800 yard seasons and a 5,200 yard season.

 

 

Again, facts!!!

 

I might have gotten a little over exaggerated with the term "Game Manager" but his best years of his career he hasn't won a Super Bowl. When he was in a more balanced offense he won his rings. Those are the facts and they are indisputable.

 

Dear god man, the points regarding a balanced offense are points that I first offered, not you. If that's what you meant from the getgo, then we agree. His passing statistics have gotten exponentially more impressive over time as have the passing statistics of the NFL as a whole. His "average" statistics in 2002-05 were excellent at the time. They would be slightly below average today.

 

His statistics are higher in total today, but that has no bearing on how he was regarded comparatively around the NFL at the time. The Pats are running a different offensive system that is generating more yardage overall as the league has evolved into one dominated by offense. This isn't heady stuff. The top 5 QBs over the past 2 seasons have averaged approximately 5,000 passing yards each. That was unheard of from 2002-05 throughout the NFL.

 

The argument you stated from the post I first quoted was that he was a game manager. That is really my only quibble. Also, touche does not mean what you think it does. Facts!

Edited January 21, 2013 by Punch

[Shoutbox]

and in my book, i think Bill Belichick is the most innovative and best game-preparers in the business. ... how he beat the Broncos by conceding a safety in the final minute a few years back had nothing to do with cheating, and everything to do with playing the long odds left before him.

how the Patriots dismantled the Bills 56-10 on that Sunday night game was the best offensive display of football i've ever seen.

how Belichik went for it on fourth down time and time again to keep Peyton off the field was his only recourse. it didn't ultimately work, but it was to his credit that he kept going for it.

 

how he stockpiled draft picks to add value and overcome having to pick late in the first round was ingenious.

how he went after not one but two tight ends because he saw how they could fit his system was smart, and something any team -- including the Bills -- should be faulted in their failure to adapt.

 

jw's the kind of guy that values a free drink and a good whiskey at any time of day. i'm weird like that. couldn't tell you if it's a western new york thing, but it's better than overpriced beer in toronto.

 

jw

 

And don't forget his greatest innovation: deliberately breaking the NFL rules of conduct to gain what was deemed an unfair advantage over opponents.

 

The BB+TB Patriots are a dynasty of "really really good", but not "great." Coach Bellycheat and Marsha Brady will make the Hall of Fame, and they deserve it for their many wins, their 10 division titles over really weak opponents, and their 5 conference titles together over a 13-year period and counting.

 

But the Hall of Fame will always have room for the Dan Fouts types and the Don Coryell types (a guy who deserves to be in now, by the way, but that's for another thread...). To be considered "great" you need to win multiple Super Bowls without illegally gaining access to the opponents' entire playbooks beforehand.

 

Jeers to overpriced beer in Toronto...cheers to the new Buffalo Bills dynasty that begins this September!

[benderbender]

Unfortunately any greatness associated with NE will always come with an asterisk. Be it the Brady "Tuck" Rule, running up the score, misleading injury reports, not shaking the other coaches hand, or Spygate. Most importantly Spygate. I think that if the NFL had handed down a significant penalty and kept the tapes, the game would have taken a hit but it would have survived. Any regular person would assume that if the evidence had to be destroyed, then it must have been so damning that it was dangerous to leave intact. Either that or the NFL overreacted. And if they overreacted the penalty should have been much harsher than 1 draft pick and 1 benchwarmer's salary.

 

In the end NE got off. The trophies are still theirs. But like steroids in baseball, we can move on but we can't forget it happened. Maybe when BB retires and Brady get shipped off like Bledsoe, a new NE team can try to erase the tarnish of the "dynasty."

[Nanker]

No Head Coach and Starting QB combination have ever won a SuperBowl after they lost one.

[ganesh]

Wow. Hardly. The point you've "proven" is not the point you were making. Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger were not game managers no matter how tightly you close your eyes and click your heels. I've never heard anyone suggest such a thing. The average statistics for a top tier QB from 2002-05 would be considered slightly below average today.

 

In later seasons, the passing game came to the forefront in both New England and Pittsburgh, statistics became exaggerated across the NFL and the team's offenses became arguably less balanced. I've already agreed that the versions of the Pats and Steelers with more sparkling passing numbers and shoddier defenses have had difficulty winning in the postseason, but this is obvious and also not the point you were making.

 

There is ample evidence that both Brady and Roethlisberger were responsible for several dramatic comebacks and winning performances during that stretch. Their "legend" was born out of such performances. Not from "game managing" as other players led the way.

 

I guess it really depends on how you define "Game Managers". I think in those 5 SB (Bradys 3 and Ben's 2), the onus of winning of the SB was not placed soley on the shoulders of the two QBs, but the mentality to win it as a team concept. In fact, in Ben's 1st SB, the big plays were not made by him. The only thing they did was to not turn over the football. I do disagree with 2nd of Ben's SB victories. It was a dramatic 92 yard "Elwaysque" drive that won the SB for the Steelers against the Arizona Cardinals including a brilliant 4th and 28 at his own 10 yard line. I do believe that both Ben and Brady won some fantastic games during those years, but in the SB they were simply just another player. It was not the same as dominating as Steve Youngs beating of the Chargers or more recently Brees production for the New Orlean Saints.

Edited January 21, 2013 by ganesh

[machine gun kelly]

I hate the Pats as all of you, but they are as dominant as Green Bay in the 60's, Steelers in the 70's, and so on. What i can tell you is it was so sweet watching the Ravens pound them again like they did a couple of years ago in the wildcard game. I just wished Sissy Brady was sacled more. Is it just me, but doesn't he grow to be a bigger panzy with each year? He just avoids hits like I've never seen any other QB. Brees is almost his age, and takes more shots than him. Even Manning with his neck seems to go for it every once in awhile.

[Fezmid]

Unfortunately any greatness associated with NE will always come with an asterisk. Be it the Brady "Tuck" Rule, running up the score, misleading injury reports, not shaking the other coaches hand, or Spygate. Most importantly Spygate. I think that if the NFL had handed down a significant penalty and kept the tapes, the game would have taken a hit but it would have survived. Any regular person would assume that if the evidence had to be destroyed, then it must have been so damning that it was dangerous to leave intact. Either that or the NFL overreacted. And if they overreacted the penalty should have been much harsher than 1 draft pick and 1 benchwarmer's salary.

 

In the end NE got off. The trophies are still theirs. But like steroids in baseball, we can move on but we can't forget it happened. Maybe when BB retires and Brady get shipped off like Bledsoe, a new NE team can try to erase the tarnish of the "dynasty."

Highlighted the part I agree with 1000%. "We looked over the tapes, nothing incriminating on them, and they've now been destroyed" just doesn't make sense.

 

To those here who say it's sour grapes by Bills fans not to celebrate the Patriots, I'll point out that Terrell Suggs agrees that the Patriots' victories are tainted.

 

The bad blood between Suggs and Tom Brady, in particular, dates back a number of years. In 2010, a season in which Brady was named NFL MVP, Suggs said he voted for Buffalo Bills quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick over Brady for the Pro Bowl. He also called Brady's three Super Bowl titles "questionable" because of the "tuck rule" game in 2001 and the Spygate scandal that surfaced in 2007.

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/8864245/2013-nfl-playoffs-terrell-suggs-baltimore-ravens-tells-arrogant-new-england-patriots-enjoy-pro-bowl

[ThurmasThoman]

Seems like Suggs agrees:

Dan Wetzel‏@DanWetzel

Suggs: "That's funny, ever since SpyGate they haven't been able to win."

 

Retweeted by Sal Capaccio

 

wow thats crazy.

 

according to this board:

 

the patriots never cheated

 

only bills fans who are "jealous" of the patriots think they cheated

 

spygate was something that only 3 bills fans created in their basement, and no one else in the rest of the league has heard of it or cares about it

 

the patriots have won every game theyve played since 2002

 

the patriots are on a remarkable run of 12 straight super bowl titles

 

tom brady is the best player in the history of the nfl, who has never thrown an incompletion, much less an interception, period

 

bill beliceck cant be outcoached

 

 

 

 

*please take note i have been saying this "dynasty" has been dead since the second i saw rice rip off an 84 yard td run in the opening minutes of that playoff game 3 years ago in gillete. glad to see bills fans finally waking up.

[ThurmasThoman]

Does that tarnish their run though? Or does it merely mean that arguably it's over?

 

i sum this up like this:

 

from 2002 through 2005, the patriots won 3 superbowls by the skin of their teeth. i live in new england, so i have seen basically every game they have played over the last 20 years. the way they won those games... you just cant begin to understand if you live out of market. it would be like if the bills/oilers comeback game happened every weekend--for 4 years. i'm not referring to "comebacks" per se, but just more along the lines of while youre watching the game, youre thinking to yourself "how is this happening, this defies logic." it wasn't enjoyable, it wasn't impressive, it wasnt "frustrating" like watching the bulls with michael jordan. it was just... weird.

 

and then the story broke that they had been cheating. and they were punished severely by the league. (as an aside--how this doesnt tarnish their legacy is beyond me.)

 

now some people will say--other teams were doing it, so just because the patriots got caught, doesnt mean theyre the only ones. applying the bonds/clemons logic to spygate. the difference being: baseball itself never punished bonds. after his career, sportswriters have kept him out of the hall of fame. if major league baseball fined bonds, or suspended him for using steroids, AND ONLY PUNISHED BARRY BONDS, would people say that steroids "didnt give him a competitive advantage?" i think not.

 

so, with all that being said--its very hard for me to look at the cumulative work of tom bradys career, and this patriots era of winning, and say he's "the best ever." they cheated (this is fact,) and won 3 superbowls. since they were punished for cheating, they have been a middling team that enjoys regular season success, and folds on the biggest of stages: something that new englanders love to rip on peyton manning for. the difference between peyton and brady? peyton has won a super bowl and not been punished for cheating. eli has won TWO super bowls and not been punished for cheating--both of them over the golden boy brady. BEN ROTHLISBERGER HAS WON 2 SUPERBOWLS, PLAYED IN ANOTHER, AND PLAYS IN A DIVISION WITH THE RAVENS!

 

now if brady tacks on one more, just ONE more, i may begrudgingly have to admit that he is one of the greatest qbs to ever play the game. but until then he is this: an extremely bright, well spoken kid who gained a competitve advantage in professional football by cheating. while cheating, he gained enormous success and popularity. since being punished for cheating, he has put up guady numbers in a pass first system that he controls during the regular season (ala peyton manning,) but has been unable to win on the biggest of stages, unlike peyton manning (1), eli manning (2) or ben rothlisberger (2.) also of note is the fact that joe flacco has come into his stadium and soundly outplayed him in the playoffs 3 times IN FOXBORO, and is 1 lee evans drop away from being 0-3 against flacco in the playoffs post spygate, 0-1 against peyton in the playoffs post spygate, and 0-2 against eli in the playoffs post spygate.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

they were tarnished at Spygate, they are tarnished every time Brady acts a Primadonnat, they are tarnished every time a Ref lets them get away with a flagrant foul, , they are tarnished every Brady gives some one a cheep shot (as seen last night) when he "kicked" the Raven in the leg and got no flag for unsportsmanlike conduct, they are tarnished every the clock at Gillette Stadium "runs" in their favor (as seen last night) at the 2:00 warning in the 4th.

[Big Turk]

 

 

I don't think they are tarnished one bit. They still won 3 Super Bowls and something like 10-11 AFC Eash Divison crown and 6 AFC Championships. All dynasties come to an end with a Thud and may be this is the beginning of the end of that era for the Patriots

 

Please remember how Kelly ended his career (On the hard cold turf of RWS)

 

I was at that game as a teenager against the upstart Jags in the playoffs...lot of stunned silence that day...Means running 78 yards for a TD, Kelly getting knocked out, Bills doing the unthinkable---losing a playoff game at home...

 

Still remember how you could hear a pin drop in that stadium as the the clock ticked away late in the 4th quarter...

 

 

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Who will Grizzel blame today for her husbands loss???

[ThurmasThoman]

i should hope the Bills had this type of dynasty questioned, no?

 

jw

 

yeah, no.

[Doc]

I was at that game as a teenager against the upstart Jags in the playoffs...lot of stunned silence that day...Means running 78 yards for a TD, Kelly getting knocked out, Bills doing the unthinkable---losing a playoff game at home...

 

Still remember how you could hear a pin drop in that stadium as the the clock ticked away late in the 4th quarter...

If only instant replay was around during that time, the Bills would have won the game (Kelly's knee was down before he fumbled).

[peterpan]

I dont follow baseball too closely, but three otherwise 1st ballot HOFers were not voted into the HOF this year because of steriod use. They may never get in at all ala Pete Rose.

 

I would like yo see the same gratitude passed on to the Pats*

 

they were tarnished at Spygate, they are tarnished every time Brady acts a Primadonnat, they are tarnished every time a Ref lets them get away with a flagrant foul, , they are tarnished every Brady gives some one a cheep shot (as seen last night) when he "kicked" the Raven in the leg and got no flag for unsportsmanlike conduct, they are tarnished every the clock at Gillette Stadium "runs" in their favor (as seen last night) at the 2:00 warning in the 4th.

 

Last night I watched the 2nd half of the game. On the Ravens 2nd TD drive, to go up 14-13, I noticed a very-obvious PI or illegal hit on EVERY SINGLE RAVENS PASS PLAY. There was only 1 flag thrown, when there should have been 8. Even the announcers mentioned how physical [read illegal] the corners were playing. Then Spikes smacked Pita right in the head - no call. It was total BS.

 

And it was F'ing Awesome to see them score anyway. Then they steamrolled right over them. F'n sweet.

Edited January 21, 2013 by peterpan

[bills44]

wow thats crazy.

 

according to this board:

 

the patriots never cheated

 

only bills fans who are "jealous" of the patriots think they cheated

 

spygate was something that only 3 bills fans created in their basement, and no one else in the rest of the league has heard of it or cares about it

 

the patriots have won every game theyve played since 2002

 

the patriots are on a remarkable run of 12 straight super bowl titles

 

tom brady is the best player in the history of the nfl, who has never thrown an incompletion, much less an interception, period

 

bill beliceck cant be outcoached

 

 

 

 

*please take note i have been saying this "dynasty" has been dead since the second i saw rice rip off an 84 yard td run in the opening minutes of that playoff game 3 years ago in gillete. glad to see bills fans finally waking up.

 

and, nobody even talks about or remembers Spygate any longer.

 

So nice to not have to read any of the **** spewed by our resident Pats* trolls this morning,

[mrags]

 

 

Dear god man, the points regarding a balanced offense are points that I first offered, not you. If that's what you meant from the getgo, then we agree. His passing statistics have gotten exponentially more impressive over time as have the passing statistics of the NFL as a whole. His "average" statistics in 2002-05 were excellent at the time. They would be slightly below average today.

 

His statistics are higher in total today, but that has no bearing on how he was regarded comparatively around the NFL at the time. The Pats are running a different offensive system that is generating more yardage overall as the league has evolved into one dominated by offense. This isn't heady stuff. The top 5 QBs over the past 2 seasons have averaged approximately 5,000 passing yards each. That was unheard of from 2002-05 throughout the NFL.

 

The argument you stated from the post I first quoted was that he was a game manager. That is really my only quibble. Also, touche does not mean what you think it does. Facts!

i agree. You got me on Touché.

[Punch]

I guess it really depends on how you define "Game Managers". I think in those 5 SB (Bradys 3 and Ben's 2), the onus of winning of the SB was not placed soley on the shoulders of the two QBs, but the mentality to win it as a team concept. In fact, in Ben's 1st SB, the big plays were not made by him. The only thing they did was to not turn over the football. I do disagree with 2nd of Ben's SB victories. It was a dramatic 92 yard "Elwaysque" drive that won the SB for the Steelers against the Arizona Cardinals including a brilliant 4th and 28 at his own 10 yard line. I do believe that both Ben and Brady won some fantastic games during those years, but in the SB they were simply just another player. It was not the same as dominating as Steve Youngs beating of the Chargers or more recently Brees production for the New Orlean Saints.

 

If you want to redefine the term "game manager" to broadly include any QB that has ever successfully executed an offense then yes, Tom Brady is a "game manager".

 

i sum this up like this:

 

from 2002 through 2005, the patriots won 3 superbowls by the skin of their teeth. i live in new england, so i have seen basically every game they have played over the last 20 years. the way they won those games... you just cant begin to understand if you live out of market. it would be like if the bills/oilers comeback game happened every weekend--for 4 years. i'm not referring to "comebacks" per se, but just more along the lines of while youre watching the game, youre thinking to yourself "how is this happening, this defies logic." it wasn't enjoyable, it wasn't impressive, it wasnt "frustrating" like watching the bulls with michael jordan. it was just... weird.

 

and then the story broke that they had been cheating. and they were punished severely by the league. (as an aside--how this doesnt tarnish their legacy is beyond me.)

 

now some people will say--other teams were doing it, so just because the patriots got caught, doesnt mean theyre the only ones. applying the bonds/clemons logic to spygate. the difference being: baseball itself never punished bonds. after his career, sportswriters have kept him out of the hall of fame. if major league baseball fined bonds, or suspended him for using steroids, AND ONLY PUNISHED BARRY BONDS, would people say that steroids "didnt give him a competitive advantage?" i think not.

 

so, with all that being said--its very hard for me to look at the cumulative work of tom bradys career, and this patriots era of winning, and say he's "the best ever." they cheated (this is fact,) and won 3 superbowls. since they were punished for cheating, they have been a middling team that enjoys regular season success, and folds on the biggest of stages: something that new englanders love to rip on peyton manning for. the difference between peyton and brady? peyton has won a super bowl and not been punished for cheating. eli has won TWO super bowls and not been punished for cheating--both of them over the golden boy brady. BEN ROTHLISBERGER HAS WON 2 SUPERBOWLS, PLAYED IN ANOTHER, AND PLAYS IN A DIVISION WITH THE RAVENS!

 

now if brady tacks on one more, just ONE more, i may begrudgingly have to admit that he is one of the greatest qbs to ever play the game. but until then he is this: an extremely bright, well spoken kid who gained a competitve advantage in professional football by cheating. while cheating, he gained enormous success and popularity. since being punished for cheating, he has put up guady numbers in a pass first system that he controls during the regular season (ala peyton manning,) but has been unable to win on the biggest of stages, unlike peyton manning (1), eli manning (2) or ben rothlisberger (2.) also of note is the fact that joe flacco has come into his stadium and soundly outplayed him in the playoffs 3 times IN FOXBORO, and is 1 lee evans drop away from being 0-3 against flacco in the playoffs post spygate, 0-1 against peyton in the playoffs post spygate, and 0-2 against eli in the playoffs post spygate.

 

This is fair. I can't really argue with any of it.

[mrags]

This is fair. I can't really argue with any of it.

Touche. ;-)

[BuffaloWings]

 

 

Perhaps, but Brady is getting old too. He's not the same guy at 30 whatever as he was in 2002. No matter how much ESPN and the rest of the media jerk him off...

 

Jaworski has been saying all morning that Brady was off last night. Hannah Storm tried to take all the blame away from him...it was windy & cold, Gronk wasn't playing, blah, blah....ESPN still tries to make excuses for him and the team.

 

Fact is, he can't be going like this for much longer. The burden (boy, I wish the Bills had a burden like this) will be on his shoulders unless they get enough defense or a solid, consistent running game.