NoSaint Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Exactly. People who really believe a business owner/manager would hire an inferior candidate because of skin color have clearly never owned or managed a business. You really think that never happens in business? Guys often hire people they identify with. "I'm successful so people like me will be successful" is a real subconscious bias. Race and broader physical appearence is one of the quickest ways that people categorize candidates. The Rooney rule at its core is about giving a guy the chance to get past that and blow up the preconceptions face to face. This happens across all racial boundaries. I don't like affirmative action or the Rooney rule but to say business owners never get affected by this is silly.
Malazan Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 My idea for changing the Rooney Rule is to make every team in the league post this throughout their offices:
EasternOHBillsFan Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 If you're going to point your finger at Lovie not being hired, you're going to have to also point your finger at the person who fired him and be prepared to accept their reasoning. If you look at the only other coach that was previously fired (Reid), you'll see a much better resume. That's not how Mike Ditka feels, and so it is far more than just MY finger pointing here... Andy Reid's record without Donovan McNabb is much less impressive than Lovie Smith's with Rex Grossman.
4merper4mer Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 What if they adapted the Rooney rule to come into effect earlier in the cycle? We can all argue about whether Smith, Horton or others should have been hired. We won't know for at least a few years how Trestman and Marrone and others perform. It is not fair to Marrone to say he was hired due to skin color. Someone else said that if Shaw had his name out there he would be an NFL HC already and I agree. What would be fair is for the NFL to examine non-firings and here is where the Bills would end up in trouble. I like Buddy Nix but most Bills fans don't. The obvious choice to replace him is a black guy. Could the NFL start stepping in and forcing teams to fire inept coaches and GMs? That doesn't mean you have to hire a black guy to replace him but it would shake things up. It would not just be Nix that would be out. Rex Ryan, John Fox, Jim Schwartz, Gary Kubiak, Dennis Allen, Greg Schiano, Mike Munchak, Mike Shanahan, Jeff Ireland, David Caldwell, Rick Spielman, Mark Dominik, Les Snead, Steve Klein, Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder would all be firings nobody would argue about. Maybe the NFL can have a policy of firing 5-10 failing coaches and GMs per year if they are white and the team takes no action. Again I am not for quotas so you can't force anyone to hire a black guy to replace the white proven failures. I'm not sure it will go this way but it does seem to make the most sense of the options.
Orton's Arm Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 You really think that never happens in business? Guys often hire people they identify with. "I'm successful so people like me will be successful" is a real subconscious bias. Race and broader physical appearence is one of the quickest ways that people categorize candidates. The Rooney rule at its core is about giving a guy the chance to get past that and blow up the preconceptions face to face. This happens across all racial boundaries. I don't like affirmative action or the Rooney rule but to say business owners never get affected by this is silly. > "I'm successful so people like me will be successful" is a real subconscious bias. This is true, and goes far beyond race. It's why liberals are disproportionately likely to be selected in favor of (and conservatives selected against) for positions in the media and academia. It's why extraverts will tend to hire other extraverts; with introverts more likely to at least be open to hiring other introverts. It's my understanding that blacks are more strongly represented in NFL coaching ranks than they are in the general population. However, representation among Asians, Latinos, Indians, and women is slim to none. I think the reason we're hearing so much about getting more black representation--and nothing at all about increasing representation among these other groups--is that most players are black. The players' union is seeking to advance the interests of its primarily black male membership (by promoting the interests of black males). It is not seeking to eliminate racial or other barriers to hiring. It is simply trying to rearrange racial preferences in coaching, to make the situation less favorable for whites and more favorable for blacks, while continuing the unfavorable situation for Asians, Latinos, Indians, and women.
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Folks get off base with "forced" diversity. Teams have a lot riding on these choices, and as another poster mentioned there are plenty individuals of color working the front offices of teams scouting for head coaching talent. Defining some kind of percentage of HC diversity that NFL teams have to meet would force teams with coaching turnovers to actually include race as a hiring factor. This creates an environment of discrimination based on race and color driven by a perception of inequality in the HC review process. Perception is not reality. I feel bad for Lovie, I believe he would have insured that we were at least a .500 team. Lovie puts together solid defensive teams, but he has never been able to pull together a competent OC staff while being a HC. We are in the hunt for a new franchise QB, the FO was looking for a staff who could develop a young prospect into that role. I would wager that selling point was a primary factor in the hiring process and race never entered into the equation.
Big Turk Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 I don't get it....Whaley a black guy... helped hire a white guy in Marrone?! Maybe he is an Uncle Tom? Lol
Mr. WEO Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 You really think that never happens in business? Guys often hire people they identify with. How else to explain Hackett as an NFL "Offensive Coordinator"?
CarolinaBill Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 What if they adapted the Rooney rule to come into effect earlier in the cycle? We can all argue about whether Smith, Horton or others should have been hired. We won't know for at least a few years how Trestman and Marrone and others perform. It is not fair to Marrone to say he was hired due to skin color. Someone else said that if Shaw had his name out there he would be an NFL HC already and I agree. What would be fair is for the NFL to examine non-firings and here is where the Bills would end up in trouble. I like Buddy Nix but most Bills fans don't. The obvious choice to replace him is a black guy. Could the NFL start stepping in and forcing teams to fire inept coaches and GMs? That doesn't mean you have to hire a black guy to replace him but it would shake things up. It would not just be Nix that would be out. Rex Ryan, John Fox, Jim Schwartz, Gary Kubiak, Dennis Allen, Greg Schiano, Mike Munchak, Mike Shanahan, Jeff Ireland, David Caldwell, Rick Spielman, Mark Dominik, Les Snead, Steve Klein, Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder would all be firings nobody would argue about. Maybe the NFL can have a policy of firing 5-10 failing coaches and GMs per year if they are white and the team takes no action. Again I am not for quotas so you can't force anyone to hire a black guy to replace the white proven failures. I'm not sure it will go this way but it does seem to make the most sense of the options. I would wager that there are some people who would argue for those guys to stay. I would wager that there are some people who would argue for those guys to stay. plus, what about Tomlin, for example, his team underperformed, so does he get fired too, or does he get a black pass?
Nanker Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I'll believe The League is interested in equality when they hand The Bills a Lombardi trophy just for being a member of The League.
Dawgg Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 This paragraph from the linked article caught my attention: Caldwell won his first 14 games with the Colts in 2009 before losing the final two regular-season games after resting Peyton Manning and most of his starters. The Colts reached the Super Bowl only to lose to the New Orleans Saints. Indianapolis went 10-6 the following season and captured another AFC South title, but lost to the Jets in a wild-card game. With Manning sidelined all of last season, the Colts went just 2-14 and Caldwell lost his job. Which detail jumps out? Peyton Manning? This was clearly an example of The Emperor Has No Clothes. The issue with Jim Caldwell not getting any interviews has more to do with Jim Caldwell than a failure of the Rooney Rule. The point is this: would a Caucasian coach get fired after posting a 10-6 season in which he lost his starting QB for 3 games? My vote is no. Unfortunately for Lovie, he ain't white!
26CornerBlitz Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) http://www.nfl.com/v...The-Rooney-rule No minority Head Coaches have been hired by teams external to their organization since 2007. That's an abysmal record and not just a mere coincidence. Edited January 20, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz
stinky finger Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I would wager that there are some people who would argue for those guys to stay. plus, what about Tomlin, for example, his team underperformed, so does he get fired too, or does he get a black pass? Yep. The free pass is known as the Uncle Tomlin. The point is this: would a Caucasian coach get fired after posting a 10-6 season in which he lost his starting QB for 3 games? My vote is no. Unfortunately for Lovie, he ain't white! Didn't Da Bears start 7-1? http://www.nfl.com/v...The-Rooney-rule No minority Head Coaches have been hired by teams external to their organization since 2007. That's an abysmal record and not just a mere coincidence. So it's intentional? I'd like to see the qualified list of candidates and can't misses.
/dev/null Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 The point is this: would a Caucasian coach get fired after posting a 10-6 season in which he lost his starting QB for 3 games? My vote is no. Unfortunately for Lovie, he ain't white! Marty Schottenheimer got whacked after going 14-2 in 2006
KD in CA Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 You really think that never happens in business? Guys often hire people they identify with. "I'm successful so people like me will be successful" is a real subconscious bias. Race and broader physical appearence is one of the quickest ways that people categorize candidates. The Rooney rule at its core is about giving a guy the chance to get past that and blow up the preconceptions face to face. This happens across all racial boundaries. I don't like affirmative action or the Rooney rule but to say business owners never get affected by this is silly. Sure people hire who they are comfortable with, and you could probably identify 1,000 such characteristics that impact interpersonal comfort levels. If we were talking about some redneck business with no black employees, I'd agree with your point. But we're talking about the NFL, where the marketing 'face' of at least half the franchises is a black player, where the owners are spending ~70% of their $120MM payroll on black players, and where the value of each franchise is directly impacted the team's on field performance. Given that, I think it is ludicrous to believe NFL owner/GMs would not be comfortable with a black coach and would not hire the guy he thinks would be the most successful on the field regarding of color. Perhaps I should have said "rich and successful business owners" instead of "all business owners".
Dawgg Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Marty Schottenheimer got whacked after going 14-2 in 2006 That was due to a well-documented personality conflict between GM and coach: one of them had to go and the owner had to pick. There was no personality conflict with Lovie Smith. He was simply shown the door because he didn't make the playoffs in a season in which he posted a 10-6 record despite injuries to a number of defensive starters and his starting QB. Such a scenario would never take place if it were a Caucasian coach. And going back to your example, who was hired as Marty's replacement? Norv Turner, a coach who had failed in 2 prior stints and for whom there were plenty of data points to suggest that he was not adequate head coaching material. In the NFL, it would be a virtual impossibility for a coach of color get a third try after 2 prior failed stints.
Dawgg Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Yep. The free pass is known as the Uncle Tomlin. Let me go over this real slow for you, that way you might get it. Tomlin coaches the Steelers and has a Super Bowl ring. The Steelers are owned by the Rooneys. Yes, the same Rooneys after which the "Rooney Rule" is named. They, unlike most teams will set a good example. They also have shown that they don't overreact, black or white. They have had 3 head coaches since 1969. In summary, nice try. The fact that you use the Steelers as an example shows just how clueless you are on the topic Didn't Da Bears start 7-1? They sure did. Lost their QB for a few games and had a top 5 defense. It's not Lovie's fault that the team failed to prioritize the offensive line in the draft, nor it his fault that they lost a number of key players to injury. Bottom line: a similar season wouldn't get a Caucasian coach fired. So it's intentional? I'd like to see the qualified list of candidates and can't misses. There is such thing as a can't miss candidate, black or white. Numerous candidates, however, deserve a chance and here are a few: Perry Fewell Keith Armstrong Hue Jackson (had one whole season to prove himself and did pretty well as a HC) Ray Horton Mel Tucker
26CornerBlitz Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Yep. The free pass is known as the Uncle Tomlin. Didn't Da Bears start 7-1? So it's intentional? I'd like to see the qualified list of candidates and can't misses. I'm not implying that it's a conspiratorial organized effort to not employ minority HCs and GMs. I believe that it's more of a systemic and maybe even an unconscious lack of willingness by some owners to look beyond someone who looks like them for qualified candidates. Edited January 20, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz
KD in CA Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 It's not Lovie's fault that the team failed to prioritize the offensive line in the draft. It's not? The head coach has no input on drafting/FA? Any HC who doesn't have the personal strength or political capital to strongly impact player acquisition is destined to fail. Or do you suppose Jim Harbaugh and Pete Carroll just sit quietly in the corner on draft day? Bottom line: a similar season wouldn't get a Caucasian coach fired. Your entire premise is false. Lovie wasn't fired for one season, he was fired for failing to get a good team into the playoffs for the 5th time in the last 6 years.
VADC Bills Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) There are too few white players in the NFL. I think we need a rule as to how many are on each team! This whole thing is ridiculous Whaley is black, hired a white guy. Whaley will also most likely be the Bills next GM. Teams want to win and will hire the best person to do that, black, white, mixed, whatever. For example, if Tony Dungy came back this year someone would have taken him. There was one black candidate with HC experience, Lovie Smith, and he indicated that he would not consider a coordinator spot. So really one candidate. It was the year of the avoid hiring a retread coach. That's why Lovie was not hired. Not a red flag. Do you even know what systematic racial bias is? I think Rob Ryan was fired because he was black. Oh, no, wait, he was white. If he were black I'm sure ESPN would have a full episode about his firing and try to blame it somehow on race. The race card: great for ratings. Exactly. Tony Dungy ran the Colts, then the team was handed off to a guy who never had to coach because Dungy and Manning did all of that. On a random note, the NFL should have a lotto like the NHL and NBA, would be much more entertaining! I don't think Whaley had much say so on the hiring of Marrone. In Marrone's press conference he thanked Nix and Brandon for getting him here not Whaley. We really don't know who favored who when the decision was made, but I don't think Whaley is calling the shots. I would be mildly surprised if Whaley became GM of the Bills. If Marrone doesn't work, the organization will fire everyone including Whaley and say it time for a new direction. I hope I'm wrong but I'm probably not. Hires like Marrone are the reason the system is being reviewed. Marrone has demonstrated mediocrity on the college level, this doesn't normally qualify you as a head coach in the NFL. I don't believe he was in great demand or he would have been hired immediately as Andy Reid was. I'm sure fans have convinced themselves that he was wanted by every team in the NFL but the fact of the matter is that we hired a guy that would still be at Syracuse if we had not hired him. I think economics and favoritism toward the orange played a part here I would have taken a run at Lovie, Arians, Reid, or Trestman before Marrone. I don't think the Bills are racist for not hiring Lovie since they past on white coaches with better qualifications as well. I also agree you can't come up with a rule to stop racism, bullying or plain old fashioned favoritism. You also can't complain about people using the race card in a country with a history of racism. This race card is never recognized by racist or people with in sensitive feelings toward race. Edited January 20, 2013 by VADC Bills
Recommended Posts