Pirate Angel Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Makes no difference who is running routes until we have a guy that can throw them the ball
NewEra Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Sure, RF has a weak arm, but how does that explain Stevie being over 13 yards per catch the past 3 years and Scott Chandler out-doing Jones by more than a yard per reception since 2011? Scott Chandler doesn't run by some defensive lineman. TE's simply shouldn't be gaining more yards per touch than your #2 WR. My guess would be play calling and the fact that Fitz just so happened to overthrow jones 90% of the time he went jones' way on deep plays. I don't know the answer to that. That's my guess. When I see Donald jones run after the catch, I'm usually impressed. He likely doesn't get the separation that Stevie does, hence is tackled before he's able to run. Maybe fitz doesn't lead him as much as the other guys. We just see it differently. I see an ok WR in Donald Jones. He's not great by any means, but he's serviceable and is our best run blocking WR. I'm extremely eager to see how he fairs with a real QB. Makes no difference who is running routes until we have a guy that can throw them the ball Word
Nitro Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 They are either slow or have no hands. They need a WR with size, some speed and good hands. I don't see Martin, Jones, Elliott, Easley abd Hogan on the roster. Graham and Smith will be have training camp to sell their skills but new coaching staff my purge them.
CardinalScotts Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 The best way to upgrade our WRs is to get a good QB. QB makes the WRs, not the other way around. - if you dont count New Orleans weapons making Drew Brees, or the Falcons wide receivers making Matt Ryan. Really? This garbage again? 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons catching passes from Fitz, and people still spew this filth. Go watch what Stevie has done against players like Revis and Richard Sherman...he's literally always open. If he played for New England he'd be good for 90 catches and 1,400 yds per season.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Was Graham really that bad? I remember him dropping a couple of passes, but not to the extent that it really jumped out at me, of course I missed significant portions of several games. I do remember him blowing the route that could have won the NE game Do you think he could improve with experience or has value at least as a situational deep threat? Graham is NOT a quality WR and wasn't in college. Thaks again Buddy !! Agree that SJ and Nelson the only ones worth keeping
XakarmyX Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Way to early to give up on graham. 1 season bro give him another chance next season. If he blows in the first five games then yeah get rid of him. Look at the inconsistency he had to deal with at qb. It takes some time for some rookies to warmup in the nfl. Use his speed on the slants and curls. Not a big deep ball receiver tho. Our teams going to be totally different with a coach that capitalizes on each players specific talents
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) The best way to upgrade our WRs is to get a good QB. QB makes the WRs, not the other way around. Really? This garbage again? 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons catching passes from Fitz, and people still spew this filth. Go watch what Stevie has done against players like Revis and Richard Sherman...he's literally always open. If he played for New England he'd be good for 90 catches and 1,400 yds per season. Stevie is a top-quality NFL WR and could contribute to almost any team. The almost here is important. NE offense depends upon very precise route running. Google NE training camp articles - you'll find plenty with stories of Brady coaching his WR to run routes a specific way so that they'll be in the right place for the ball, not 18" to the right or to the left. Chad Johnson crashed and burned in NE because he was incapable of running specific routes let alone running them precisely. Stevie has many strengths as a WR - the ability to avoid being jammed on the line, to juke and twist and beat coverage. But these come at the expense of running precise, predictable routes - the essence of what drives NE offense. He'd be >100 catches on many teams, and NE probably isn't one of them. We're so absolute here on TBD. A player is either untouchable or he's trash. Stevie is neither. He's a very very good NFL wide receiver, and he also has drawbacks and flaws. Other QB are helped by WR who slow down, come back, leap and dive for balls - routinely. I could be missing something, I haven't seen that much from our guys, including Stevie. QB are also helped by precise, predictable route running and that's not Stevie's strength. Someone here will interpret this as excusing or even worshiping Fitz and dissing Stevie. It's neither, just trying to evenly evaluate the good and the bad. A good QB makes a WR better, but a really good WR makes a QB better too (see Green and Dalton). It's not quite as unilateral as you present it to be. Edited January 20, 2013 by Hopeful
Webster Guy Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Was Graham really that bad? I remember him dropping a couple of passes, but not to the extent that it really jumped out at me, of course I missed significant portions of several games. I do remember him blowing the route that could have won the NE game Do you think he could improve with experience or has value at least as a situational deep threat? I think TJ isn't going to be a good NFL receiver. He has the speed, but watching him on the deep throws he is very poor with body positioning, awareness and ball skills. There were a few long balls this year that he should have had, or at least given himself a chance to catch, but he either slowed up or got into little hand control battles with the cover guys and never made a play on the ball. When Vince Young first hit him on that deep ball in preseason, I thought we finally have a guy that can actually get behind the safety over the middle of the field. The rest of the season was a disappointment. Maybe next year he will have enough film on himself and get coached up better and have a strong sophomore season, but I'm worried that he doesn't have the knack for the NFL.
Rob's House Posted January 20, 2013 Author Posted January 20, 2013 Stevie is a top-quality NFL WR and could contribute to almost any team. The almost here is important. NE offense depends upon very precise route running. Google NE training camp articles - you'll find plenty with stories of Brady coaching his WR to run routes a specific way so that they'll be in the right place for the ball, not 18" to the right or to the left. Chad Johnson crashed and burned in NE because he was incapable of running specific routes let alone running them precisely. Stevie has many strengths as a WR - the ability to avoid being jammed on the line, to juke and twist and beat coverage. But these come at the expense of running precise, predictable routes - the essence of what drives NE offense. He'd be >100 catches on many teams, and NE probably isn't one of them. We're so absolute here on TBD. A player is either untouchable or he's trash. Stevie is neither. He's a very very good NFL wide receiver, and he also has drawbacks and flaws. Other QB are helped by WR who slow down, come back, leap and dive for balls - routinely. I could be missing something, I haven't seen that much from our guys, including Stevie. QB are also helped by precise, predictable route running and that's not Stevie's strength. Someone here will interpret this as excusing or even worshiping Fitz and dissing Stevie. It's neither, just trying to evenly evaluate the good and the bad. A good QB makes a WR better, but a really good WR makes a QB better too (see Green and Dalton). It's not quite as unilateral as you present it to be. I'm not saying you're wrong, b/c I'm not the best at diagnosing route running accuracy, but this is the first time I've heard this knock on Stevie. Usually the criticisms are that he doesn't have game-breaking speed and has the occasional dropped pass. I was under the impression that route running was one of his strengths. I think TJ isn't going to be a good NFL receiver. He has the speed, but watching him on the deep throws he is very poor with body positioning, awareness and ball skills. There were a few long balls this year that he should have had, or at least given himself a chance to catch, but he either slowed up or got into little hand control battles with the cover guys and never made a play on the ball. When Vince Young first hit him on that deep ball in preseason, I thought we finally have a guy that can actually get behind the safety over the middle of the field. The rest of the season was a disappointment. Maybe next year he will have enough film on himself and get coached up better and have a strong sophomore season, but I'm worried that he doesn't have the knack for the NFL. You may be right. I keep my fingers crossed and hope to God he pans out so as to take the sting off decision to pass on Russell Wilson.
Webster Guy Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Less than half the teams in the NFL had a 1000 yard receiver last year. Stevie has three 1000 plus yard seasons in a row and some people think he's "not a true" #1. Joke. Where did that term even come from? We run a spread offense. Teams play us in nickel the entire game (three corners plus the safeties) NE was even playing dime against us half the time (four corners, like a 4-1-6). When you get that deep into another teams cornerbacks, there is usually a rookie cb (or someone injured maybe) that the QB will target as his first read. On our team the ball would often go to that guy or be a checkdown throw to the backs. It's an opportunistic offense designed to create seams in coverage and take advantage of mismatches. If you can get 1000 yards on a team that runs such an offense, and has a good pass catching TE like we do and runs as many screens as we do, you're a stud receiver. And if you can get more TD catches than the best receiver of all time, in his prime (Megatron), or Reggie Wayne, or Andre Johnson that doesn't hurt either. But he's just a number two guy so.......
3rdand12 Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Rob i really think with each of the receivers we fielded last year need another look with fresh eyes. The key of course QB and coaching, whether it's OC or position coaches. And i have hope to see improvement with this group. and alot more disciplined approach to routes and blocking. as mentioned, and a good point, will Hackett let Stevie do his thing ? and i would bet we see at least 2 new to us guys on the roster at WR.
Green Lightning Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 Graham is NOT a quality WR and wasn't in college. You were likely saying the same thing about Eric Moulds after his first two seasons.
Nanker Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 We still need a tall, sure-handed, tough, fast receiver.
KeisterHollow Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 The more I look at this upcoming draft class, the more I think we should pick 2 WR's in the first 5 rounds - maybe earlier. I'd like it if we came out of the draft with 2 WR'ers, LB'ers, and QB's. Anyway, the draft has quite a few tall, fast WR'ers that are typically thought of in the mold of #1 types. I want to see us have a Saints type offense - when they were Super Bowl contenders - so that we can put 3 or 4 WR'ers out there and the defense will actually have to account for each of them. I can't imagine how great Spiller would be in that scenario, if the QB is capable of taking advantage of it. The way I see it, our O-line is excellent. We have a very good WR in Stevie, and a great RB tandem. We pick up 2 legitimate WR's and a speedier TE, and of course a legitimate QB, and this offense is gonna LIGHT IT UP! I really hope that is the way Marrone approaches this season - not trying to be "good", but rather trying to be GREAT.
Rob's House Posted January 20, 2013 Author Posted January 20, 2013 I think we're really close to having the kind of personnel to run a high output offense similar to the Rams when they were the "Greatest show on turf". We've got a pretty good O-line; as I see it we're 1 receiver (Torry Holt) and a QB (I know they had Kurt Warner, but Marc Bulger made that machine work too) away from having it like that: Stevie Johnson is a lot like Isaac Bruce, only not quite as fast TJ Graham could fill the Az-Hakim spot (Az-Hakim had similar speed and similar flaws) David Neson could play the Ricky Proehl spot (not fast but great hands and a knack for finding the soft spot in coverage) CJ Spiller could play the Marshall Faulk role in the passing game I wonder if Terrance Williams could fill the Torry Holt role?
ganesh Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 Graham has good track speed, but he's a huge disappointment as a football player. Not sure if any other WR in the NFL has worse hands. He's not physical. Lacks any playmaking ability. His talent was projecting him as a 6th-undrafted. Doesn't matter that Nix thought highly of him. Nix is a complete moron and has no right keeping his job. Neither does Graham. Also, Donald Jones is also not a talented WR. He's dropped too many perfect passes that were would-be huge gains/TDs. He can catch a ball that he's facing but has he ever caught a ball over his shoulder? All I remember are drops. Graham and Jones are complete garbage. That is why both are starters on a "Scumb-bag" run team. Both would not have made the squad of the other 31 franchise.
BuffaloFan68 Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 I still want to see what Easley can do with a real QB. I would love it if we could land Bowe to play with Stevie!
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