KOKBILLS Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks. That saved me from typing this. Wilson is a smart runner though. He doesn't look for contact, he chooses to run carefully, and he's bigger than he looks (he's just not tall). Agreed...I think intelligence in running is SO important...As important as the ability to do it...I see a ton of smarts in the way Wilson and Kaepernick take off...I think RGIII is a smart kid...But he runs WAY too recklessly at times...Maybe this injury will smarten him up a bit...
Max997 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 These running QBs will not continue to run like this especially once they start getting hit more and injuries start piling up. It already happened in Washington They look great right now but once the NFL adjusts it won't look so easy
dubs Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 It's an interesting thought, but I don't think running QBs or the QB Read Option is going to stick around too long. CK looked fantastic last night, but part of that is I don't think defenses are accustomed to playing against it yet. If you look at the real successful QBs in the NFL right now, it's all classic pocket passers. Brady, Manning, Brees, Ryan, and Rogers just to name a few. I also think what teams are trying to do with RGIII, CK, and Wilson is slim down the playbook to get these guys on the field. As they get a little more mature and more comfortable with the complex NFL offenses, you'll see less running/read option and more traditional offenses. Teams have to protect their biggest investments, which is the QB.
Bill from NYC Posted January 13, 2013 Author Posted January 13, 2013 I think Kaepernick and Cam Newton are completely different animals, albeit with similar skill-sets, than Wilson and RGIII...Newton is a HUGE dude at 6-5-245...He's a small DE size-wise...Newton is bigger than most of the open field tacklers he faces...And Kaepernick is 6-5-230...Newton and Kaepernick are rare in that they can take a bit of the pounding that would easily knock a QB like RGIII, or Wilson loopy...So even though I agree it puts your starting QB at higher risk, if it's a QB with size like those two, and they play smart, they can stay healthy... I don't liken Newton to Kaepernick THAT much. Newton is a monster. CK is a tall guy, but his shoulders are a bit narrow. Cam would seem to have a better chance at being durable, but CK is no joke. And, all it does take is a knee to ruin either one. And btw other than Vick who looks beat up, the qbs who can run like this are young,. These kids will get better throwing the ball, or so it would appear. I am as old school as anyone on this board or close to it, but I think that a trend is starting to appear. Jmo.
nineteen sixty four Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I am SOOOOOO glad we didnt draft Kapernick or Russell Wilson! Ugh
Orton's Arm Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I had to stop watching the 49ers/Packers game because as the game went on the more infuriated I got at the thought that our countryboy GM passed on Kaepernick and in the following year Russell Wilson for some other nickel and dime players. What is even more maddening is that he didn't need to use a first round pick on either player. Where I disagree with you is in your belief that running qbs are the wave of the future. That is not necessarily the case. What the Redskins will assuredly have learned with the RG III saga is that thier special athletic qb will have to modify his game in order to have a sustainable career. Vick had too much street tough and ego to alter his game. And he has payed the physical price for his stubbornness. You can be very confident that the running bravada of Kaepernick, RG III, Luck and Russell Wilson type qbs will be toned down as their career advances. As each qb matures and their ability to read defenses advances they will be moving more behind the pocket than across the line of scrimmage. When looking for a qb don't pigeon-hole yourself. There are different styles of play that can be very successful. Fouts was certainly different from Young; Peyton and Brady are different from Roethlisberger; Kramer with the Rams and Cardinals was more of a Marino type of quick release type of passer who had a lot of success. In my view Green Bay's Rodgers is the best qb in the game. He moves around a lot but for the most part it is not to run downfield so much as it is to keep the play alive so he can pass the ball. I have come to the conclusion a long time ago, reinforced by the Fitz experience, is that you can't teach accuracy. You either have it entering the NFL or you don't. Trying to alter the throwing motion for a prospect in order to improve accuracy is an act of futility. The throwing window in the NFL is extremely small, especially compared to the wider window in college. That is why I never wanted to draft a Locker type qb, no matter how athletic or impressive character traits he or his ilk possessed. In this year's draft there are a number of quality franchise qb prospects with a variety of body types. For me I require a qb who can move around in the pocket and who has adequate arm strength and most importantly impeccable accuracy. At this point I'm favoring Tyler Wilson but I am open to a variety of other candidates. There is no RG III or Luck caliber of qbs in this upcoming draft. So what! That is the norm. Even when that rare event occurs odds are that your mediocre team is not in position to select that type of prospect. Newton was the first pick in the draft and so was Luck. The Redskins had to give up a boatload of picks to move a few spots up for Griffin. My point being is that you can't let "perfect be the enemy of the good." Buddy Nix never understood that you can't cripple your franchise because your ultimate desires can't be attained. When option one is closed then go to option two. I have stated many times that it is important that the Bills take the highest rated qb on "their" board when their pick comes up. I don't recommend that they get too cute maneuvering around in the first round when they know which qb they really want. If they get too cute with their maneuvers they can end up losing their desired player. I have been very harsh towards Nix's record, By miscalculating on his past dratt strategies with respect to a qb selection he has set this very bedraggled franchise back. Very, very good post!
keepthefaith Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 To find a QB with great football smarts, accuracy, leadership, work ethic, character, decision making ability AND the running ability of Kaepernick, RGIII, Newton or Wilson is rare. Not many teams will be able to have one of those but it is interesting that there all of the sudden a few that look like stars in the making. Kaepernick to me is ridiculously athletic with no disrespect to the others. I can't wait for the guy's next game. He's really fun to watch.
mannc Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 My biggest problem with running QBs is their longevity. Will RG3 ever be the same? Michael Vick is an injury waiting to happen everytime he runs. You base the entire offense around one guy and he gets hurt? You got trouble Some running QBs seem more susceptible to injury than others. Vick and RGIII for example, as opposed to Newton and Kaepernick. Kaepernick is so big and strong it's hard to imagine him getting beaten up. Flutie is another one who never seemed to get hit very hard. I think R. Wilson is similar in that regard.
silvermike Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 http://pfref.com/tiny/ah9PD Top QBs in the Super Bowl era in rushing yards/game. I limited to guys with at least 16 starts, so nothing weird gets caught up. Steve Young is the first Super Bowl winner on the list, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb are in the top ten. Oddly, Doug Flutie AND Rob Johnson are in the top 15. Ryan Fitzpatrick is #22. JP is #58. This is among 258 qualifiers. Take THAT for what it's worth.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) Until a "running QB" finally wins a SuperBowl OR: he pulls an Elway and simmers down... I am not sold. One is not going to win it all w/his feet and a "hyper" game. Don't get me wrong... I was very pro-Flutie over Rob Johnson! The "hybrids" like Elway have a good chance... BUT Elway still had the physical stature to make up for it. The under 6 foot crowd, I have my doubts that they can win it all... Edited January 14, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois
Sig1Hunter Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 Thanks Bill for posting. Yeh Kapernick doesn't even look like a rookie to me. Great tools & a heck of an arm. Ironically, I remember last Feb during the combine, Chis Brown (of Bills.com) was real high on this guy. He mentioned him a few times over the ensuing weeks leading into the draft. Wasn't he still on the board when we picked in round 2? FYI - he's not a rookie. This is his second year.
reddogblitz Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 Yeh Kapernick doesn't even look like a rookie to me Probably because he's not. He's a 2nd year guy. (does Tarkenton count?) I don't think so. Fran was not a runner. He was a scrambler. He would run around behind the line to get time to pass. Just because a few teams have had a little success with it does not mean it's the way of the future and we should jump on board. Running QBs follow one of two career paths. 1. They run for a while and think they are going to revolutionize the game until they get creamed a few times and then decide to become pocket passers (Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Roger Staubach, John Elway, and Steve McNair). 2. They don't stop running and end up injured a large part of every year (Michael Vick). I don't see that changing. Defenses will catch up to this read option business resulting in injured QBs who will decide to become pocket passers. Wilson, RG3, and Colin all have the tools to be pocket passers. I look for the RG3 transition to begin in 2013.
MDH Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 There haven't been any. A pocket passer that happens to run well when forced to scramble, aka Elway, doesn't count, IMO. In fact, I don't think any running QBs have even made it to the Superbowl (does Tarkenton count?). But Tarkenton and even Steve Young seemed to be pass first and run only when I have to QBs (albeit with some designed runs thrown in). Steve Young started out as a guy who would bolt from the pocket and run before he really had to but as he matured he became much more of a pocket QB who only took off when he had to. This is probably the only way for a running QB to have a long career - if they don't adapt they get killed eventually.
truth on hold Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 .....and its a big problem IMO. While the read option is fun to watch I think it will be a short-lived fad much like the wildcat. Guys will get killed running that thing for any length of time. jb Biggest hit I've seen CK taken so far was from your 2012 buffalo bills. Remember that wildcat run he ran down the right sideline got drilled and fumbled ? From looking awfully green just a few months ago he's come a long way.
eball Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 I had to stop watching the 49ers/Packers game because as the game went on the more infuriated I got at the thought that our countryboy GM passed on Kaepernick and in the following year Russell Wilson for some other nickel and dime players. What is even more maddening is that he didn't need to use a first round pick on either player. Where I disagree with you is in your belief that running qbs are the wave of the future. That is not necessarily the case. What the Redskins will assuredly have learned with the RG III saga is that thier special athletic qb will have to modify his game in order to have a sustainable career. Vick had too much street tough and ego to alter his game. And he has payed the physical price for his stubbornness. You can be very confident that the running bravada of Kaepernick, RG III, Luck and Russell Wilson type qbs will be toned down as their career advances. As each qb matures and their ability to read defenses advances they will be moving more behind the pocket than across the line of scrimmage. When looking for a qb don't pigeon-hole yourself. There are different styles of play that can be very successful. Fouts was certainly different from Young; Peyton and Brady are different from Roethlisberger; Kramer with the Rams and Cardinals was more of a Marino type of quick release type of passer who had a lot of success. In my view Green Bay's Rodgers is the best qb in the game. He moves around a lot but for the most part it is not to run downfield so much as it is to keep the play alive so he can pass the ball. I have come to the conclusion a long time ago, reinforced by the Fitz experience, is that you can't teach accuracy. You either have it entering the NFL or you don't. Trying to alter the throwing motion for a prospect in order to improve accuracy is an act of futility. The throwing window in the NFL is extremely small, especially compared to the wider window in college. That is why I never wanted to draft a Locker type qb, no matter how athletic or impressive character traits he or his ilk possessed. In this year's draft there are a number of quality franchise qb prospects with a variety of body types. For me I require a qb who can move around in the pocket and who has adequate arm strength and most importantly impeccable accuracy. At this point I'm favoring Tyler Wilson but I am open to a variety of other candidates. There is no RG III or Luck caliber of qbs in this upcoming draft. So what! That is the norm. Even when that rare event occurs odds are that your mediocre team is not in position to select that type of prospect. Newton was the first pick in the draft and so was Luck. The Redskins had to give up a boatload of picks to move a few spots up for Griffin. My point being is that you can't let "perfect be the enemy of the good." Buddy Nix never understood that you can't cripple your franchise because your ultimate desires can't be attained. When option one is closed then go to option two. I have stated many times that it is important that the Bills take the highest rated qb on "their" board when their pick comes up. I don't recommend that they get too cute maneuvering around in the first round when they know which qb they really want. If they get too cute with their maneuvers they can end up losing their desired player. I have been very harsh towards Nix's record, By miscalculating on his past dratt strategies with respect to a qb selection he has set this very bedraggled franchise back. Good, good post. I'm not as critical of Buddy because of the improvements made in other areas (i.e., the lines), but there is no question he has failed miserably with respect to QB. I have also posted numerous times I want Marrone/Hackett/Whaley to determine who is "the" QB in this draft they think can lead the team for 10 years, and then get him at #8 without regard for others labeling it a "reach." Some have assumed it will be Nassib -- I don't think Marrone is dumb enough to telegraph his moves. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. But we're hoping for the same thing.
Garion Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 http://pfref.com/tiny/ah9PD Top QBs in the Super Bowl era in rushing yards/game. I limited to guys with at least 16 starts, so nothing weird gets caught up. Steve Young is the first Super Bowl winner on the list, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb are in the top ten. Oddly, Doug Flutie AND Rob Johnson are in the top 15. Ryan Fitzpatrick is #22. JP is #58. This is among 258 qualifiers. Take THAT for what it's worth. That's pretty interesting. Not sure what it means but interesting.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 That's pretty interesting. Not sure what it means but interesting. I think it goes to show you that the key is balance. Check out where Dan Marino is! Almost dead last! Almost! He sniffed the SB (and lost) just once!
LynchMob23 Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 Good, good post. I'm not as critical of Buddy because of the improvements made in other areas (i.e., the lines), but there is no question he has failed miserably with respect to QB. I have also posted numerous times I want Marrone/Hackett/Whaley to determine who is "the" QB in this draft they think can lead the team for 10 years, and then get him at #8 without regard for others labeling it a "reach." Some have assumed it will be Nassib -- I don't think Marrone is dumb enough to telegraph his moves. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. But we're hoping for the same thing. One of the things that hurts Buddy in the QB derby to me was Gailey most likely insisting Fitz was okay, and that Buddy could continue to build the other pieces of the team. By the time Buddy had a bead that wasn't accurate, wheels came off this year. When he does pick the QB this year, no doubt he'll get the right guy.
BuffaloWings Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 These running QBs will not continue to run like this especially once they start getting hit more and injuries start piling up. It already happened in Washington They look great right now but once the NFL adjusts it won't look so easy This x 1000. I said in the Shoutbox yesterday that I think the league will eventually figure out how to stop these guys (Newton, RG3, Wilson, Vick, etc). I've seen it too many times - the NFL coaches can spend 24 hours a day for weeks on end if they have to. When you have plays in your game plan designed for the option or a QB run and the defense takes that away, then the QB needs to become a true pocket QB. This is why I think Andrew Luck will last a long time - he CAN run, but that's not his main weapon. Right now, Russel Wilson looks like he might be able to last a while because he doesn't usually run unless he has to. Yes, there are a handful of plays where it's a designed run, but Wilson has shown me that he'll sit in the pocket and make good throws. His mobility allows him to escape the pressure (which is really hard to defend), but it's not as if those plays are designed for him to run. Someone said earlier that if you design the offense around a running QB and he gets hurt, you're in trouble. We'll see how the Redskins can adjust if Griffin isn't ready for the first few games of 2013, but we've already seen what happened to the Eagles when Vick got hurt.
VirginiaMike Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 I may be one of a few but i heard Skip Bayless say (not quite the way i will put it) but if a coach had balls enough to play to Teabows strengths like Myer did in college he would be a success in the NFL which i agree with. When you start quoting Skip Bayliss you lose all credibility. Skipper is an idiot. The difference between RG3, Kaepernick, & Wilson and the Tebows of the world ((like Klein from Kansasa St) is that those there can throw the balll accurately. If they could only run, like tebow, the defense would buckle down on the run and now worry abouot the pass. For those 3, the pass is an equally effective weapon. Tebow is to the pass as Payton Manning is to the QB run!
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