Chandler#81 Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Lofon left after 93. He and Reed definitely helped each other
boyst Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Of all people - I cannot believe Warren Sapp made it. Yes, he was very good for his time, and dominated the game for a while, but he to say HOF? I just am not sure - Especially with someone like Bianca Wilfork out there today. Sapp was not as good as Bianca Wilfork. I am not sure Carter deserves it, Reed, or many others, either... the HOF is getting watered down. Carter and Sapp in before better OL of the game just makes it clear that OL is nothing.
truth on hold Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I generally agree with this Moss point, but Lofton was actually on the first 3 Super Bowl teams and a pro bowler during the 2nd one. It was still very brief and the closest thing Reed had to a premier WR partner in his career. Then again, Reed had Kelly and Thomas--- Carter never had a comparable QB-RB combo and never had either for 10 seasons. Moss numbers in Minnesota blow the doors off Loftons in Buffalo. And Culpepper before the injury was clicking, ran really well too Edited February 3, 2013 by Joe_the_6_pack
Nitro Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Michael Irvin played 159 games, 750 receptions, 11,904 yards, 15.9 average, 65 td TDs. Andre Reed played 234 games, 951receptions, 13,198 ards, Cris Carter 234 games, 1,101 receptions, 13,899 yards, 12.6 average, 130 TDs. Cris Carter has better sats and deserves to be in the HOF. Irvin pales in comparison to both Carter and Reed. Maybe if Andre got a TV gig to keep himself front and center in the voters minds may get him over the top. Once again the HOF votes in a couple linemen and makes it tougher on skill position players. This year Andre knocked on the door. Next year he kicks it in and makes it.
ganesh Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I generally agree with this Moss point, but Lofton was actually on the first 3 Super Bowl teams and a pro bowler during the 2nd one. It was still very brief and the closest thing Reed had to a premier WR partner in his career. Then again, Reed had Kelly and Thomas--- Carter never had a comparable QB-RB combo and never had either for 10 seasons. That is the worst argument. Actually, Carter benefited playing in a dome and also had some good QBs who could throw the ball deep in Cunnigham and Culpepper. Too bad those Minnesota defenses stunk up the joint and couldn't put together a decent run to the SB.
papazoid Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 keep your head up andre.......your going in next year !! #1- the logjam at WR is broken #2- andre made the final 10, tim brown did not. #3- next years first time eligibles are a weak class (Marvin Harrison, Derrick Brooks, Tony Dungy). i'll go so far as to say....andre is a "lock" to make it in next year....
truth on hold Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) i'll go so far as to say....andre is a "lock" to make it in next year.... Harrison IMO is a first balled HoF'er. i dont see how Reed is a lock next year @ all. In that time watch Brown get elevated too, just like Carter. I think Reeds chances get worse not better Edited February 3, 2013 by Joe_the_6_pack
Punch Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 That is the worst argument. Actually, Carter benefited playing in a dome and also had some good QBs who could throw the ball deep in Cunnigham and Culpepper. Too bad those Minnesota defenses stunk up the joint and couldn't put together a decent run to the SB. Yes, Carter had good situations in Minnesota--- Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Brad Johnson and Daunte Culpepper were a very good group of QBs. But it pales in comparison to Reed having Jim Kelly for 10 years. The same is true of Thurman vs. the Vikings RB group over that period. Consistency and chemistry for 10 years with HoF players is better. I don't know WTF you mean by "the worst argument". I still think Reed is better by far, it's just a caveat to be fair.
BillsWatch Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 When Reed was first eligible one of the voters from Washington or Denver, I can not remember which it has been so long, said he would never vote for Reed due to his 'career' away from Buffalo. He thought Reed as acting like a Prima Donna when cut from Buffalo and on Denver or Washington.
NoSaint Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Just bumped into Jim Kelly and told him to pass on the fans support!
Punch Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Carter also benefitted hugely with the over the top attention the defense gave to moss. What do you think opened up all those underneath routes carter thrived on? Reed had an aging lofton who was waived by bills a year after their first super bowl, out of the league another year later, and don beebe ... Moss numbers in Minnesota blow the doors off Loftons in Buffalo. And Culpepper before the injury was clicking, ran really well too I clearly agreed with the Moss point--- although it should be noted that Moss and Carter only played together for 4 seasons (just like Reed/Lofton). But let's not pretend that Lofton was washed up after one year, either, which is what you said. He was a crucial component in the K-Gun and Reed benefited greatly from his presence. Reed was better, period. His stats are great for the era. Carter's are better because he benefited from several seasons in a pass happy offense. It's the kind of BS that sports writers crow about and further evidence that they should not be selecting athletes to be represented in the Hall of Fame.
BRAWNDO Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Actually, it would have been good for Reed if Reed got in. Dumb comment by Gaughan. True, but Mark Gaughan was actually in the room while Reed and Carter were debated, maybe he is reading the tea leaves for next year?
firemedic Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Maybe a specific play can't be remembered in Reed's career because he made SO MANY OF THEM. Go to youtube and check out the 10 minute plus videos of him scoring 90+ TDs for a start.....
Maury Ballstein Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 They couldn't have Johnathan Ogden wait ? Glad for Cris Carter but Reed should have gotten nod over sapp and ogden IMO
Dibs Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 They couldn't have Johnathan Ogden wait ? Glad for Cris Carter but Reed should have gotten nod over sapp and ogden IMO Ogden made 11 pro bowls in his 12 NFL seasons. He was an easy choice IMO.
truth on hold Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I clearly agreed with the Moss point--- although it should be noted that Moss and Carter only played together for 4 seasons (just like Reed/Lofton). But let's not pretend that Lofton was washed up after one year, either, which is what you said. He was a crucial component in the K-Gun and Reed benefited greatly from his presence. Reed was better, period. His stats are great for the era. Carter's are better because he benefited from several seasons in a pass happy offense. It's the kind of BS that sports writers crow about and further evidence that they should not be selecting athletes to be represented in the Hall of Fame. The problem is you keep trying to play up lofton like he was some kind of stud that reed fed off of. Lofton was a sideshow to reed and clearly on the downside of his career. He wasn't the #1 wr on the team, reed was. Moss OTH was in his prime, Vikings #1, and the IMO the best deep threat ever. Couldn't ask for a better setup for an underneath wr like carter. So we can stop with the lofton - moss comparison let's look at their numbers. - loft on 4 season with bills 2736 yards, 21 TDs - moss 4 w/ vikes 5396 yards , 53 TDs There is no comparison. Its just silly to mention them in the same breath
Dibs Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 The problem is you keep trying to play up lofton like he was some kind of stud that reed fed off of. Lofton was a sideshow to reed and clearly on the downside of his career. He wasn't the #1 wr on the team, reed was. Moss OTH was in his prime, Vikings #1, and the IMO the best deep threat ever. Couldn't ask for a better setup for an underneath wr like carter. So we can stop with the lofton - moss comparison let's look at their numbers. - loft on 4 season with bills 2736 yards, 21 TDs - moss 4 w/ vikes 5396 yards , 53 TDs There is no comparison. Its just silly to mention them in the same breath I agree.....Lofton's tenure in Buffalo was right in the middle of Reed's pro bowl years(90-92) & was virtually book ended by his best seasons(89 + 94). There is a better argument to say that Reed was the stud that an aging Lofton fed off. It is likely however that Moss only helped Carter pad out his stats a little bit in the last third of his career. In the 5 seasons prior to Moss, Carter amassed 5 pro bowl seasons of 86+ receptions & 1000+ yards.....515 receptions, 5930 yards & 56 TDs total over those 5 years. In Reed's 7 pro bowl seasons combined he had 518 receptions, 7408 yards & 50 TDs. IMO Reed deserves to be in the HOF but unfortunately he suffers due to statistical comparisons to his contemporaries(Rice, Irvin, Carter, Brown, Sharpe, Rison).
truth on hold Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I agree with that and I never said moss was the only factor in carters success. I also mentioned how hot culpepper was, for example. It's the comparison of lofton to moss I take issue with. Look Carter was an excellent WR. I used to like watxhjng him play. At one time I thought he had best hands ever, but some key drops later on swayed me off that. He has #'s, he performed over a number of seasons. In the abstract I don't begrudge him, its going in ahead of reed I don't think is fair.
NoSaint Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I agree with that and I never said moss was the only factor in carters success. I also mentioned how hot culpepper was, for example. It's the comparison of lofton to moss I take issue with. Look Carter was an excellent WR. I used to like watxhjng him play. At one time I thought he had best hands ever, but some key drops later on swayed me off that. He has #'s, he performed over a number of seasons. In the abstract I don't begrudge him, its going in ahead of reed I don't think is fair. Are you arguing that reeds a little better, or clearly head and shoulders better? I'd put carter a tiny bit ahead leaving it close enough that I wouldn't be upset either way with the results as long as atleast one got in today to break the logjam
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