BillsFan17 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No California quarterbacks. Look for kids who played in cold windy stadiums (preferable where there is often snow on the ground). Well Green Bay should look to get rid of Rodgers then. Heck, that Tom Brady fella was born and raised in Cali... He will never work out in NE if you ask me... Those Cali kids just don't pan out in the NFL.
dave mcbride Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) My feelings about Pennington were always the same. After his surgery his arm was terrible, but he still played great, and the way he always did. It just wasn't good enough. Even when he was having those good years in the early 2000s I personally didn't want him because of the aforementioned ceiling. Again, I understand people liking him like I understand people liking Martyball. He went 14-2 one year. But for me, as a fan who pays attention and watches a lot of football, I never wanted Pennington as my guy because I thought you wouldn't win it all with him. It was possible, of course. I just thought the chances were too slim. Pennington had a rag arm before he had no arm whatsoever. He simply never scared me. Could he play great games? Absolutely. Was he maybe the smartest QB in the league? Of course. Did that mask his glaring deficiencies and make him a very effective player? Hell yes. Did I think he could win it all with that one deficiency? Hell no. I could have been wrong. I could be wrong about Barkley. I wasn't wrong about other guys like that, including Pennington himself, and Kelly Holcomb, and a host of others with rag arms. People talk about Dilfer being a crappy QB who won, and that was true. But he didn't have a rag arm and he was a top draft pick. All fair points except for one thing - Marty S had some truly rotten luck. That SD loss to NE was the clincher for me. They had that game won! If what's his name knocks down that fourth down pass instead of intercepting it, the game was over. They completely outplayed the Pats in that game too. Also, the Byner fumble is the most unlucky play in NFL history. He was waltzing into the end zone, and that would have won the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8boPbIfG0M Edited April 24, 2013 by dave mcbride
26CornerBlitz Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 @JoeBuscaglia Interesting take on Barkley MT @ESPNStatsInfo The numbers say you should not doubt Matt Barkley's arm strength. http://youtu.be/diPGRbjp4BQ
BillsFan17 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 @JoeBuscaglia Interesting take on Barkley MT @ESPNStatsInfo The numbers say you should not doubt Matt Barkley's arm strength. http://youtu.be/diPGRbjp4BQ But but but matt has a weak arm and wont be able to throw the ball in Buffalo's apparent sub human weather.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) @JoeBuscaglia Interesting take on Barkley MT @ESPNStatsInfo The numbers say you should not doubt Matt Barkley's arm strength. http://youtu.be/diPGRbjp4BQ I saw that video earlier and to me it was just flat stupid, and didn't at all address Barkley's issue. Not to mention that he had all kinds of lob throws deep to Marquis Lee all season long. His accuracy on 20+ yard passes isn't an issue, or 40 yard passes, he has great accuracy on his (semi) deep passes. The fact he overthrew more than underthrew is not at all the issue. His issue is he cannot drive the ball on those throws, he cannot throw the deep out and deep in with enough velocity to not have NFL defenders catch up with it. Nothing in that video addressed the real concern. Edited April 24, 2013 by Kelly the Dog
section122 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I saw that video earlier and to me it was just flat stupid, and didn't at all address Barkley's issue. Not to mention that he had all kinds of lob throws deep to Marquis Lee all season long. His accuracy on 20+ yard passes isn't an issue, or 40 yard passes, he has great accuracy on his (semi) deep passes. The fact he overthrew more than underthrew is not at all the issue. His issue is he cannot drive the ball on those throws, he cannot throw the deep out and deep in with enough velocity to not have NFL defenders catch up with it. Nothing in that video addressed the real concern. I know this will sound way more like an attack than it is meant to so please don't take it that way... Why is the fact that he completes these passes being disregarded? Now it is the way he completes then that people have an issue with? I think people are looking for things to knock the guy on personally. He completes them, they're even pretty and not lobs (nassib) or wobblers. I understand the need to drive the ball but the need to complete the pass is much more important that how fast and hard he got it there. Yes DBs are better, which makes accuracy more important, which Barkley is.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I know this will sound way more like an attack than it is meant to so please don't take it that way... Why is the fact that he completes these passes being disregarded? Now it is the way he completes then that people have an issue with? I think people are looking for things to knock the guy on personally. He completes them, they're even pretty and not lobs (nassib) or wobblers. I understand the need to drive the ball but the need to complete the pass is much more important that how fast and hard he got it there. Yes DBs are better, which makes accuracy more important, which Barkley is. The answer is the same reason that Tim Tebow is not a good NFL QB and the same reason that Matt Leinart is not a good NFL QB: The split second longer it takes for the ball to get to the spot from the time the QB starts his motion is the difference between the college and the pro game. The players in the NFL react faster and run faster. So those same balls that were accurate and completions in college are knocked down or intercepted in the NFL. In Tebow's case, it's his elongated throwing motion. From the time he starts to throw, the ball goes down and then goes up before it leaves his arm. That takes time and why the ball gets there late (he has a huge accuracy problem too because coaches are trying to change his motion to correct that hitch). In Leinart's case, he is big and slow and lumbering and has a semi weak arm. So the time it takes him to throw, because everything is slow about him, is that extra split second that the ball doesn't reach the receiver. In Barkley's case, like Chad Pennington and Colt McCoy and a host of others, he is not slow on his release like Leinart, he does not have the huge windup like Tebow that loses that split second, he has a rag arm and doesn't always throw a tight spiral. So the ball doesn't get there in time. On 10-15 yard passes it doesn't matter much. But the whole issue is the deep outs and 20-30 yard bullets and the 50+ yard bombs. The ball doesn't get there quick enough and the defenders have too much time to make plays on it. That's what all these scouts say about "making all the throws."
Wayne Cubed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) The answer is the same reason that Tim Tebow is not a good NFL QB and the same reason that Matt Leinart is not a good NFL QB: The split second longer it takes for the ball to get to the spot from the time the QB starts his motion is the difference between the college and the pro game. The players in the NFL react faster and run faster. So those same balls that were accurate and completions in college are knocked down or intercepted in the NFL. In Tebow's case, it's his elongated throwing motion. From the time he starts to throw, the ball goes down and then goes up before it leaves his arm. That takes time and why the ball gets there late (he has a huge accuracy problem too because coaches are trying to change his motion to correct that hitch). In Leinart's case, he is big and slow and lumbering and has a semi weak arm. So the time it takes him to throw, because everything is slow about him, is that extra split second that the ball doesn't reach the receiver. In Barkley's case, like Chad Pennington and Colt McCoy and a host of others, he is not slow on his release like Leinart, he does not have the huge windup like Tebow that loses that split second, he has a rag arm and doesn't always throw a tight spiral. So the ball doesn't get there in time. On 10-15 yard passes it doesn't matter much. But the whole issue is the deep outs and 20-30 yard bullets and the 50+ yard bombs. The ball doesn't get there quick enough and the defenders have too much time to make plays on it. That's what all these scouts say about "making all the throws." Now, I'm not saying that they are the same person, but the same was said about Tom Brady. Here's one of his pre-draft scouting reports: " Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral." Maybe that's why he went in the 6th round, I don't know. But if Brady was able to improve on his long ball, it's entirely possible that Barkley can. It's something that can be fixed, and from the recent articles that have been posted about Barkley, maybe he has that same chip on his shoulder that Brady did to fix it. I certainly wouldn't take Barkley at 8, but I think he's an interesting prospect at the end of the first round. Possible worth trading up for. EDIT: I'm a fan of trading down a bit, grab Tyler Eifert, then grab a QB at the end of the first. Nothing more helpful to a rookie QB, than a passing catching TE. Edited April 24, 2013 by Wayne Cubed
HeHateMe Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Barkley is tissue soft... he'll never make it through a 16 game season.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 The answer is the same reason that Tim Tebow is not a good NFL QB and the same reason that Matt Leinart is not a good NFL QB: The split second longer it takes for the ball to get to the spot from the time the QB starts his motion is the difference between the college and the pro game. The players in the NFL react faster and run faster. So those same balls that were accurate and completions in college are knocked down or intercepted in the NFL. In Tebow's case, it's his elongated throwing motion. From the time he starts to throw, the ball goes down and then goes up before it leaves his arm. That takes time and why the ball gets there late (he has a huge accuracy problem too because coaches are trying to change his motion to correct that hitch). In Leinart's case, he is big and slow and lumbering and has a semi weak arm. So the time it takes him to throw, because everything is slow about him, is that extra split second that the ball doesn't reach the receiver. In Barkley's case, like Chad Pennington and Colt McCoy and a host of others, he is not slow on his release like Leinart, he does not have the huge windup like Tebow that loses that split second, he has a rag arm and doesn't always throw a tight spiral. So the ball doesn't get there in time. On 10-15 yard passes it doesn't matter much. But the whole issue is the deep outs and 20-30 yard bullets and the 50+ yard bombs. The ball doesn't get there quick enough and the defenders have too much time to make plays on it. That's what all these scouts say about "making all the throws." Kelly, I think you're one of the best posters on here and very much respect your opinion. Here's a scouting report: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/drew_brees.html A lot of Barkley's knocks are a lot of Brees' knocks. Of course, it doesn't mean Barkley will ever come close to Brees. But for the most part, every QB will get picked apart. I think people sometimes look for the wrong thing in arm strength. I think ball placement is so huge right now. Aaron Rodgers throws the ball where only his guy can make a play. I also wonder if Barkley had an Alabama type defense, would people be looking at him differently? He won't have thrown as many INTs because he won't have to force things and would have won a national championship. I get the fears of Barkley but I do think he can be a NFL franchise QB. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Kelly, I think you're one of the best posters on here and very much respect your opinion. Here's a scouting report: http://www.footballs...drew_brees.html A lot of Barkley's knocks are a lot of Brees' knocks. Of course, it doesn't mean Barkley will ever come close to Brees. But for the most part, every QB will get picked apart. I think people sometimes look for the wrong thing in arm strength. I think ball placement is so huge right now. Aaron Rodgers throws the ball where only his guy can make a play. I also wonder if Barkley had an Alabama type defense, would people be looking at him differently? He won't have thrown as many INTs because he won't have to force things and would have won a national championship. I get the fears of Barkley but I do think he can be a NFL franchise QB. I guess we'll find out tomorrow. I understand people bringing up old scouting reports saying other great players, like Brady and Brees, who had question marks about their arm strength proved naysayers wrong. My response to that is simple, Brady and Brees showed clearly more arm strength to me in college and THEY were considered to not have strong enough arms. Barkley is worse. From his rookie year, Brees showed that he had a good enough arm. I wouldn't compare the two, Brees always had plenty of arm to me. In effect, it makes Barkley's issue more pronounced, if scouts were worried about guys with clearly stronger arms having issues with arm strength. Plus I just read that Brees scouting report and it doesn't say anything about his arm not being strong enough. Edited April 24, 2013 by Kelly the Dog
dubs Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I've been all over the map on this, just like many posters, prognosticators, kipers, and probably coaches and scouts. In my opinion, what that tells us is there is a ton of risk with ALL the QBs, Barkley included. That leads me to believe that while takin a QB could work out at 8, I think the risk is too high and you gotta get someone you're reasonably confident will come in a produce at a high level for a while. I think the bills gotta show some fortitude and wait until the 2nd round to address QB. Whether that's Barkley, Nassib, Manuel, whomever.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I understand people bringing up old scouting reports saying other great players, like Brady and Brees, who had question marks about their arm strength proved naysayers wrong. My response to that is simple, Brady and Brees showed clearly more arm strength to me in college and THEY were considered to not have strong enough arms. Barkley is worse. From his rookie year, Brees showed that he had a good enough arm. I wouldn't compare the two, Brees always had plenty of arm to me. In effect, it makes Barkley's issue more pronounced, if scouts were worried about guys with clearly stronger arms having issues with arm strength. Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. I guess time will tell but in the right situation (not Arizona), Barkley will be a very solid NFL starter. I've been all over the map on this, just like many posters, prognosticators, kipers, and probably coaches and scouts. In my opinion, what that tells us is there is a ton of risk with ALL the QBs, Barkley included. That leads me to believe that while takin a QB could work out at 8, I think the risk is too high and you gotta get someone you're reasonably confident will come in a produce at a high level for a while. I think the bills gotta show some fortitude and wait until the 2nd round to address QB. Whether that's Barkley, Nassib, Manuel, whomever. I get what you're saying but I don't like the wishy washy attitude. My point of view is you draft a QB because you believe he is the guy. You don't draft him because you have a need. You don't not draft him at #8 because it's not where Mel Kiper says he should go. You don't draft a guy because another guy you wanted got drafted so you had to settle (Losman syndrome). If the Bills draft a QB at #8, I just pray it is the guy they believe will end this drought.
section122 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. I guess time will tell but in the right situation (not Arizona), Barkley will be a very solid NFL starter. I agree. I respect Kelly's opinion as I know he isn't talking out of his blow hole like some (most?). However I just see Barkley as a stud. I'm hoping he ends up in Buffalo and is my favorite QB prospect in the draft. Only time will tell who is smarter!
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. I guess time will tell but in the right situation (not Arizona), Barkley will be a very solid NFL starter. I see plenty of beautiful deep throws, too. To wide open fabulous receivers in beautiful weather. Barkley throws a pretty deep ball accurately. If guys happened to be covered in the NFL, those are INCs and INTs. If you could guarantee me that NFL CBs will be ignoring or significantly worse and slower than the Bills WRs, I would take Barkley in a heartbeat. I also edited my post above to you and just read the Brees scouting report and it didnt say anything about lacking arm strength, which is Barkley's issue.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I see plenty of beautiful deep throws, too. To wide open fabulous receivers in beautiful weather. Barkley throws a pretty deep ball accurately. If guys happened to be covered in the NFL, those are INCs and INTs. If you could guarantee me that NFL CBs will be ignoring or significantly worse and slower than the Bills WRs, I would take Barkley in a heartbeat. I also edited my post above to you and just read the Brees scouting report and it didnt say anything about lacking arm strength, which is Barkley's issue. I saw a bunch of times last year where Spiller, Graham, and Graham were wide open down the field. Fitz missed them. If he hits them, they are game changers. So if Barkley is good at hitting wide open receivers, I'll take it. Trust me, I want Aaron Rodgers. But even Aaron Rodgers wasn't Aaron Rodgers right away. You may be right & Barkley will be a bum. But I think he is a product of the overanalyzing of draft picks. The fact he goes from a top 5 pick (and maybe the 2nd QB off the board last year) to a 2nd round talent really is crazy.
dubs Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. I guess time will tell but in the right situation (not Arizona), Barkley will be a very solid NFL starter. I get what you're saying but I don't like the wishy washy attitude. My point of view is you draft a QB because you believe he is the guy. You don't draft him because you have a need. You don't not draft him at #8 because it's not where Mel Kiper says he should go. You don't draft a guy because another guy you wanted got drafted so you had to settle (Losman syndrome). If the Bills draft a QB at #8, I just pray it is the guy they believe will end this drought. If the Bills brass sees something that makes them believe Barkley or another QB has a great chance at being at being a stud, I totally agree with you. I guess my point, more specifically, is that it seems to me that each of these guys have many more flaws than a typical QB drafted in round 1. Unfortunately they don't only compete against guys in this years draft class when we play the games. Therefore, I'd rather us not reach and forgo a very solid player just because we need a QB that badly. We can't force it. But, if nix, Whaley, and Marrone absolutely love a guy, they pull the trigger at 8. Sure. Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. I guess time will tell but in the right situation (not Arizona), Barkley will be a very solid NFL starter. I get what you're saying but I don't like the wishy washy attitude. My point of view is you draft a QB because you believe he is the guy. You don't draft him because you have a need. You don't not draft him at #8 because it's not where Mel Kiper says he should go. You don't draft a guy because another guy you wanted got drafted so you had to settle (Losman syndrome). If the Bills draft a QB at #8, I just pray it is the guy they believe will end this drought. If the Bills brass sees something that makes them believe Barkley or another QB has a great chance at being at being a stud, I totally agree with you. I guess my point, more specifically, is that it seems to me that each of these guys have many more flaws than a typical QB drafted in round 1. Unfortunately they don't only compete against guys in this years draft class when we play the games. Therefore, I'd rather us not reach and forgo a very solid player just because we need a QB that badly. We can't force it. But, if nix, Whaley, and Marrone absolutely love a guy, they pull the trigger at 8. Sure.
JohnC Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Like I said, I really respect your opinion and it's funny how 2 people can see things so differently. I've seen plenty of USC games and seen plenty of beautiful deep throws. I've seen him carry USC single handedly against an Oregon team that scored on every drive. I've also seen him match Andrew Luck stat for stat in 2 games. As you noted when Barkley played against Luck he was never over matched. It was a toe to toe sling fest. In last year's game against Oregon he was constantly under assault. In almost every case when under extreme pressure he instinctively slid away from the pressure and got the ball to the receiver. You can't teach that pocket presence. The ultimate question is whether Barkley is closer to a Brees type qb or a Pennington type qb? I lean more towards a Brees type player than a limited Pennington type player. What is very surprising is that while many people question Barkley''s arm he does throw a nice long ball. If the Bills are going to run a WC offense then why not select a qb most suited for that type offense?
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 If the Bills brass sees something that makes them believe Barkley or another QB has a great chance at being at being a stud, I totally agree with you. I guess my point, more specifically, is that it seems to me that each of these guys have many more flaws than a typical QB drafted in round 1. Unfortunately they don't only compete against guys in this years draft class when we play the games. Therefore, I'd rather us not reach and forgo a very solid player just because we need a QB that badly. We can't force it. But, if nix, Whaley, and Marrone absolutely love a guy, they pull the trigger at 8. Sure. If the Bills brass sees something that makes them believe Barkley or another QB has a great chance at being at being a stud, I totally agree with you. I guess my point, more specifically, is that it seems to me that each of these guys have many more flaws than a typical QB drafted in round 1. Unfortunately they don't only compete against guys in this years draft class when we play the games. Therefore, I'd rather us not reach and forgo a very solid player just because we need a QB that badly. We can't force it. But, if nix, Whaley, and Marrone absolutely love a guy, they pull the trigger at 8. Sure. I think you're a little off base. Cam Newton was ripped apart. There were questions about RG3's slight frame and playing style. Aaron Rodgers went #24. Joe Flacco was a goofy looking dude who played at Delaware. Wilson was too short. Kaepernick and Rivers throw funny. Big Ben played in the MAC. Etc. Unless you're Manning or Luck, QB prospects always get picked apart. All we have to go on is what the media draft "experts" say. NFL teams draft boards might look very different. There might be a run on QBs in the 1st or one might not be taken. Tomorrow should be very interesting either way.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I saw a bunch of times last year where Spiller, Graham, and Graham were wide open down the field. Fitz missed them. If he hits them, they are game changers. So if Barkley is good at hitting wide open receivers, I'll take it. Trust me, I want Aaron Rodgers. But even Aaron Rodgers wasn't Aaron Rodgers right away. You may be right & Barkley will be a bum. But I think he is a product of the overanalyzing of draft picks. The fact he goes from a top 5 pick (and maybe the 2nd QB off the board last year) to a 2nd round talent really is crazy. I will admit my bias, because I have seen him play horribly live a few times, and it has surely slanted my opinion of him. I also think he has a weak arm. And I am a huge advocate of you must have one, even if accuracy and ball placement are more important. But I also believe this to be true... "I don't think Barkley really hurt himself," an AFC college scouting director said, assessing the quarterback's decision to return to USC for his senior year. "He was the same guy last year. He didn't start falling in October, no matter where he was on everyone's 'big board' in December. I looked at Barkley (after his junior year) and I thought he was a backup quarterback. I told people, 'I'm not sold.' And it was the same thing this year. In the end, I don't think he hurt himself." http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap1000000156377/article/nfl-draft-prospects-face-difficult-stay-or-go-decisions-in-college I think under closer scrutiny, he would have fallen down in the draft because his rag arm would have been on the radar.
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