NickelCity Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 I think the cold weather factor is a non-issue. I'm not saying there aren't issues with taking Barkley, but as for him not being able to "handle" the cold...c'mon.
Buffaloed in Pa Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 I think the cold weather factor is a non-issue. I'm not saying there aren't issues with taking Barkley, but as for him not being able to "handle" the cold...c'mon. against a dome qb ..cmon Barkley played in the wind alot more than nassib
dayman Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) I will go on record and say I wouldn't be on suicide watch if we took Barkley at 8 and just said that is gona be that....same can be said for a number of other qbs though...I'm at the point where I'm ok w/ a failure so long as we take one...no more of this nonsense where we have no qb and don't take a qb... Edited April 23, 2013 by SameOldBills
Buffaloed in Pa Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 IS there a Qb that can make all the throws ? accurate? Great deep ball,doesn`t hop around like a wounded chicken,has great footwork? Yeah maybe he had good receivers,BUT he still had to make the throw. BARKLEY. 4yrs proven,bad senior year...36 tds 15ints.BAD year. With a bad o-line.But he`s not from crappy cuse. Get real. Forgot to say he played outside in wind,not indoor league play. And a much tougher schedule.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Jaws is a guy that knows a lot about the NFL, a lot about the QB position and watches a ton of film on a ton of players. He's not always right, of course. But he's probably as good an authority as there is on the position... Ron Jaworski on Matt Barkley: "In NFL you've gotta make tough stick throws against 6-7 DBs. Arm strength critical. Barkley's not there yet."
dave mcbride Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Jaws is a guy that knows a lot about the NFL, a lot about the QB position and watches a ton of film on a ton of players. He's not always right, of course. But he's probably as good an authority as there is on the position... Jaws *loved* Losman because of his arm. Just sayin'. Kelly Holcomb was a better player than JP.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Jaws *loved* Losman because of his arm. Just sayin'. Kelly Holcomb was a better player than JP. I don't think Kelly Holcomb was a better player than JP. Kelly Holcomb was Colt McCoy, he had a ceiling he could never overcome so I don't know why anyone would want him. Jaws may have loved Losman because of his arm, a lot of guys did. The point is only that it's almost impossible to be a top QB in this league without a decent arm. If you can't do what Jaws is saying Barkley can't do, you can't be a franchise guy. In effect, Losman has a better chance than Barkley even though Barkley is a far superior QB on most levels. If you can't make those throws, you cannot succeed, or it's extremely rare in today's games. The chances of Barkley increasing his arm strength enough to make those throws over the next few years is possible but not likely. It's the same reason Colt McCoy will never be good, and Kellen Moore will never be good, and an endless series of good and great and fabulous college QBs than cannot play in the NFL. Barkley is borderline. Some believe he does, barely, have enough arm strength. Others, like Jaws, think he falls short.
Peter Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I don't think Kelly Holcomb was a better player than JP. Kelly Holcomb was Colt McCoy, he had a ceiling he could never overcome so I don't know why anyone would want him. Jaws may have loved Losman because of his arm, a lot of guys did. The point is only that it's almost impossible to be a top QB in this league without a decent arm. If you can't do what Jaws is saying Barkley can't do, you can't be a franchise guy. In effect, Losman has a better chance than Barkley even though Barkley is a far superior QB on most levels. If you can't make those throws, you cannot succeed, or it's extremely rare in today's games. The chances of Barkley increasing his arm strength enough to make those throws over the next few years is possible but not likely. It's the same reason Colt McCoy will never be good, and Kellen Moore will never be good, and an endless series of good and great and fabulous college QBs than cannot play in the NFL. Barkley is borderline. Some believe he does, barely, have enough arm strength. Others, like Jaws, think he falls short. I hear what you are saying and I also have questions about him and the others. Yet, of all the QBs, Barkley intrigues me the most. While he does not have Dan Marino's arm, I have heard/read scouts say that his arm is fine. Presuming that to be the case, I think he is a good kid with a high football IQ who showed a ton of leadership at USC. He could have left them in his rearview mirror last year and probably would have been a top five or 10 pick. Instead, even with all the BS swirling around the program and no financial incentive to stay, he came back for his senior season.
section122 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I hear what you are saying and I also have questions about him and the others. Yet, of all the QBs, Barkley intrigues me the most. While he does not have Dan Marino's arm, I have heard/read scouts say that his arm is fine. Presuming that to be the case, I think he is a good kid with a high football IQ who showed a ton of leadership at USC. He could have left them in his rearview mirror last year and probably would have been a top five or 10 pick. Instead, even with all the BS swirling around the program and no financial incentive to stay, he came back for his senior season. I had much the same thing to say in the 30 for 30 thread. The similarities were striking to me... I loved this one but I'm a sucker for these 30 for 30s. The reason it was focused on elway and Marino is because they shared an agent and he kept a diary through the process. As for Marino, if you haven't watched it yet or plan on rewatching it - substitute the name Barkley for Marino and they are very similar stories. Prolific jr years where they were thought to be high picks, return have a sub par year, take all the blame, get crushed by every pundit around, watch stock fall. I'm not saying Barkley = Marino but the parallels were enough to stick out to me. ( yes I am in the I want Barkley camp)
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I hear what you are saying and I also have questions about him and the others. Yet, of all the QBs, Barkley intrigues me the most. While he does not have Dan Marino's arm, I have heard/read scouts say that his arm is fine. Presuming that to be the case, I think he is a good kid with a high football IQ who showed a ton of leadership at USC. He could have left them in his rearview mirror last year and probably would have been a top five or 10 pick. Instead, even with all the BS swirling around the program and no financial incentive to stay, he came back for his senior season. If Barkley had the arm of any of the top ten QB prospects, he would be the consensus #1 QB and likely consensus #1 overall. You're right, there is a ton to like about him and he has a ton of the 15 or so elements of being a top NFL QB. But having an average to weak arm, and not being very mobile, kills him. For me, I have seen him live play absolutely horrible a few different times. So I never really wanted him regardless of the arm issue. But I do realize that it may have shaded my opinion on him, because he hasn't had a ton of crappy games over his career. I had much the same thing to say in the 30 for 30 thread. The similarities were striking to me... The similarity ends and never restarts when you consider that Marino had a cannon and was huge. Barkley's detractors, if you read or listen close, don't talk nearly as much about his lukewarm senior season as they do his weak arm, and lack of mobility and average size.
Peter Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I had much the same thing to say in the 30 for 30 thread. The similarities were striking to me... It is funny that you should say that. I was watching that last night and thinking about this. Fortunately for Barkley, he does not have the rumors swirling around that Marino had to face. If the Bills think that Barkley's arm is good enough, I really think that Barkley has everything else that you want in a QB. The kid actually started at Mater Dei as a 15 year old. That is just crazy. For those of you who do not know, that school is a HS powerhouse. He also started at USC as a freshman. We all know that USC has no shortage of highly rated QB recruits. Ask Aaron Corp for more information about that.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I also think that he really may not have been the top ten choice last year mostly people assume after the scrutiny on him began, and scouts have said that publicly.
dave mcbride Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I don't think Kelly Holcomb was a better player than JP. Kelly Holcomb was Colt McCoy, he had a ceiling he could never overcome so I don't know why anyone would want him. I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole, but ... http://www.pro-footb.../H/HolcKe00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../L/LosmJ.00.htm Holcomb was better in pretty much every category - passer rating, win/loss pct., and advanced QB rating. Plus Holcomb's stats don't include his monster game against the Steelers in the playoffs. Edited April 24, 2013 by dave mcbride
Peter Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I also think that he really may not have been the top ten choice last year mostly people assume after the scrutiny on him began, and scouts have said that publicly. You never know. You could be right. These guys -- especially QBs -- get picked apart from the end of the season to the day of the draft. Since the subject came up because of the 30 for 30, think about how Marino got so picked apart in pre-draft evaluations that he dropped all the way to the Dolphins and past his hometown Steelers. By contrast, Ryan Tanneyhill rose all the way up the draft boards last year. It is pure speculation on my part about where Barkley would have been drafted last year, but he certainly was highly rated.
section122 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) For me, I have seen him live play absolutely horrible a few different times. So I never really wanted him regardless of the arm issue. But I do realize that it may have shaded my opinion on him, because he hasn't had a ton of crappy games over his career. The similarity ends and never restarts when you consider that Marino had a cannon and was huge. Barkley's detractors, if you read or listen close, don't talk nearly as much about his lukewarm senior season as they do his weak arm, and lack of mobility and average size. It is funny you mention seeing him play swaying your perspective. I wonder how many people are actually watching these prospects. In the Nassib thread someone mentioned "after watching the usc tape today I came away unimpressed and don't want him on the Bills" blows my mind people are making decisions quickly and concretely like that. However as for your perspective I fall exactly on the opposite end. I can't get the battle he had with Luck 2 years ago out of my head. He was amazing that day and outperformed (imo) Luck that day. I wanted him then and still want him to be the qb now. (like how I contradict myself there? ) As for the similarities - I think both paid the price for becoming known quantities and having sub par years. Potential plays huge in the draft and these guys are more you know what/who they are. It is why EJ Manuel, Matt Scott, etc get projected as early as they do. As for what the detractors are saying I hear over and over how bad his senior year was (36:15) along with the other weaknesses you mentioned. I personally feel they are over reactions to his year. As stated I'm not saying they are the same prospect just that their paths seem to be similar. It is funny that you should say that. I was watching that last night and thinking about this. Fortunately for Barkley, he does not have the rumors swirling around that Marino had to face. If the Bills think that Barkley's arm is good enough, I really think that Barkley has everything else that you want in a QB. The kid actually started at Mater Dei as a 15 year old. That is just crazy. For those of you who do not know, that school is a HS powerhouse. He also started at USC as a freshman. We all know that USC has no shortage of highly rated QB recruits. Ask Aaron Corp for more information about that. He actually had to get permission because he was only 14! He was a starter as a freshman in hs and college I just see success all over this kid. Then again I liked Colt McCoy too.... I also think that he really may not have been the top ten choice last year mostly people assume after the scrutiny on him began, and scouts have said that publicly. I'm not so sure Kelly. I have seen this said a couple of times but can't imagine Barbarian's Boy going at 8 instead of Barkley. The college careers are nowhere close in terms of experience, production, results, etc... I think Barkley would have gone to the Fins leaving us in an interesting situation d/t the rumors of Bills interest in Talleywhacker. Edited April 24, 2013 by section122
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole, but ... http://www.pro-footb.../H/HolcKe00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../L/LosmJ.00.htm Holcomb was better in pretty much every category - passer rating, win/loss pct., and advanced QB rating. Plus Holcomb's stats don't include his monster game against the Steelers in the playoffs. Looking at stats means absolutely nothing out of context. Nor does it show limitations. Nor does it show talent. The name of the game is winning a Super Bowl. I don't want a guy leading my team that has no chance at winning a Super Bowl. Losman turned out to be not that guy because he couldn't read defenses well enough or make enough plays to win games (along with terrible coaching). He didn't learn the game quick enough. But he had a better chance at winning the Super Bowl than a guy like Holcomb who could never be good enough because he didn't have the physical skills to do so. I understand the other side of the argument I just strongly disagree with it. To me, it's akin to Martyball and Chad Pennington. I understand people liking and wanting either of them. I never did because I thought you couldn't win it all with either of them. You never know. You could be right. These guys -- especially QBs -- get picked apart from the end of the season to the day of the draft. Since the subject came up because of the 30 for 30, think about how Marino got so picked apart in pre-draft evaluations that he dropped all the way to the Dolphins and past his hometown Steelers. By contrast, Ryan Tanneyhill rose all the way up the draft boards last year. It is pure speculation on my part about where Barkley would have been drafted last year, but he certainly was highly rated. The difference is, and they just touched on it, Marino was absolutely horrible as a senior. He said himself he had more INTs than TDs. I think they said he threw 20 or 24 less TDs as a senior than he did as a junior. That's why he fell.
dave mcbride Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Looking at stats means absolutely nothing out of context. Nor does it show limitations. Nor does it show talent. The name of the game is winning a Super Bowl. I don't want a guy leading my team that has no chance at winning a Super Bowl. Losman turned out to be not that guy because he couldn't read defenses well enough or make enough plays to win games (along with terrible coaching). He didn't learn the game quick enough. But he had a better chance at winning the Super Bowl than a guy like Holcomb who could never be good enough because he didn't have the physical skills to do so. I understand the other side of the argument I just strongly disagree with it. To me, it's akin to Martyball and Chad Pennington. I understand people liking and wanting either of them. I never did because I thought you couldn't win it all with either of them. I totally disagree with you about Pennington. Evaluations of him now seem to all be based on his play after he tore his rotator cuff (which he did twice). That seriously wrecks your arm strength. In his first few seasons, he was certainly good enough and the Jets had real chances in 2002 and 2004. Lest we forget, the Jets lost a heartbreaker in OT to a heavily favored 15-1 Steelers team in the divisional round: http://www.pro-footb...00501150pit.htm . Generally speaking, the retrospective analysis of Pennington is very weak, I think. Prior to his injury, his arm wasn't especially strong but it wasn't horrible. And he was one of the most accurate QBs in the league. In 2002 and 2004, he had excellent seasons: http://www.pro-footb...00501150pit.htm . He was hurt in early 2005 and was never the same. Edited April 24, 2013 by dave mcbride
Kelly the Dog Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I totally disagree with you about Pennington. Evaluations of him now seem to all be based on his play after he tore his rotator cuff (which he did twice). That seriously wrecks your arm strength. In his first few seasons, he was certainly good enough and the Jets had real chances in 2002 and 2004. Lest we forget, the Jets lost a heartbreaker in OT to a heavily favored 15-1 Steelers team in the divisional round: http://www.pro-footb...00501150pit.htm . Generally speaking, the retrospective analysis of Pennington is very weak, I think. Prior to his injury, his arm wasn't especially strong but it wasn't horrible. And he was one of the most accurate QBs in the league. In 2002 and 2004, he had excellent seasons: http://www.pro-footb...00501150pit.htm . He was hurt in early 2005 and was never the same. My feelings about Pennington were always the same. After his surgery his arm was terrible, but he still played great, and the way he always did. It just wasn't good enough. Even when he was having those good years in the early 2000s I personally didn't want him because of the aforementioned ceiling. Again, I understand people liking him like I understand people liking Martyball. He went 14-2 one year. But for me, as a fan who pays attention and watches a lot of football, I never wanted Pennington as my guy because I thought you wouldn't win it all with him. It was possible, of course. I just thought the chances were too slim. Pennington had a rag arm before he had no arm whatsoever. He simply never scared me. Could he play great games? Absolutely. Was he maybe the smartest QB in the league? Of course. Did that mask his glaring deficiencies and make him a very effective player? Hell yes. Did I think he could win it all with that one deficiency? Hell no. I could have been wrong. I could be wrong about Barkley. I wasn't wrong about other guys like that, including Pennington himself, and Kelly Holcomb, and a host of others with rag arms. People talk about Dilfer being a crappy QB who won, and that was true. But he didn't have a rag arm and he was a top draft pick.
NE Bills Fan Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No California quarterbacks. Look for kids who played in cold windy stadiums (preferable where there is often snow on the ground).
section122 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No California quarterbacks. Look for kids who played in cold windy stadiums (preferable where there is often snow on the ground). It's funny you request this: Geno - a stretch to say WV is cold weather but prob your best bet Barkley - socal Nassib - Dome Manuel - Florida Wilson - Arkansa Jones - Oklahoma Not one of the top guys fits your request - oh well there is always next year
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