dave mcbride Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 It's more than the cap. The cap hit is the same whether he stays or goes. But, there's still a big chunk remaining under the guaranteed contract. It would be unwise to cut him outright, since they still have to pay him, and at worst, he is probably one of the best backup QBs in the league. If they were to cut him, I suspect that a lot of pretty solid teams with shaky backup situations would be all over him (e.g., the Vikings, the Falcons [Chris Redman], the Jets, the Broncos).
GG Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 If they were to cut him, I suspect that a lot of pretty solid teams with shaky backup situations would be all over him (e.g., the Vikings, the Falcons [Chris Redman], the Jets, the Broncos). Yup, that's why there's virtually no incentive for him to restructure his contract. I think Bills fans need to start recognizing that they're probably stuck with Fitz for at least one more year. Especially in looking at the rookie QB class, there's not a guy in the draft who can come in and play better than Fitz in 2013.
JESSEFEFFER Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 My $.02. Fitz has played enough for us to see what he offers. His arm strength is not elite but it is good enough. Over throwing deep balls is a sign of what exactly? There were enough instances I saw where the ball was well placed and seemed timed but the receiver was engaged in hand fighting the DB for an extended time period. Beating the press and hand checks and getting into the route is not an easy thing. Hence the Bills continued mention of needing to add a receiver who is "open even when he isn't." A size/speed guy that is a physical mismatch against most DBs and who can get to balls regardless of coverage. They have not added such a WR in three years of trying and that certainly is not TJ. TJ Graham added very little to the team in his 1st year. IMO, Namaan Roosevelt was more impressive in his limited opportunities. More physical, better hands and more reliable route running. Fitz could have made more use of that in a quick release attack, especially after David Nelson was lost for the year. Accuracy is almost impossible for us to gauge. We do not know the play calls and associated route adjustments. Many throws are made to seams in zones and the receiver is expected to adjust their routes accordingly. Fitz threw the ball very well in Dolphins II but it did not matter. SJ and DD fumbles and SJ drops were killers. There was nothing wrong with those throws, imo. Fitz's two most productive games were the Titans and Pats II. The fact that both these ended up as losses and the way in which the offense and Fitz were complicit in the way they ended, is telling. Good enough to impress but couldn't close the deal. Good teams are in close, important games all the time. A QBs ability to close the deal is what will often decide it. In Fitz's 3 years of starts about half of the Bills offensive failures in close game losses are on him and that is too many. In the end you can either appreciate his smarts, toughness, leadership qualities and forgive his less impressive passing skills and lack of clutch play or not. If you do then you're inclined to think he's worth keeping around into the foreseeable future in one capacity or another. If not, then you're inclined to think anybody, repeat any body, that they bring in will be an improvement. I think the latter is more the result of the lingering anger associated with a disappointing ending to a season which had legitimate expectations. The former is more rational.
Orton's Arm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Yup, that's why there's virtually no incentive for him to restructure his contract. I think Bills fans need to start recognizing that they're probably stuck with Fitz for at least one more year. Especially in looking at the rookie QB class, there's not a guy in the draft who can come in and play better than Fitz in 2013. You may be right. I hope there is a QB in the upcoming draft who can be a long term answer for the Bills. Maybe a guy like Glennon or Nassib. But even if one of those guys can come in and be the answer eventually, I think there's still a lot to be said for keeping the rookie quarterback on the bench. Let him sit and learn the offense for a year. Unless it's Nassib, in which case we don't have to worry.
papazoid Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Why in the hell does ANYONE support this guy? I could care less if our QB was up for Sainthood...if he doesn't win football games in critical situations, doesn't have the arm strength to complete deep passes (ever), absolutely scares nobody in this league and consistently has an ENTIRE FAN BASE anticipating a game-ending INT, it's time to move on. He is a joke that will never QB in a playoff game. Ever. Wow. yep.....plus he is ranked 27th overall in NFL total QBR.......and has no upside....he is NOT going to get better. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr
Dorkington Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 It's kind of funny. One side is saying "hey, he's not the greatest, but his contract makes it silly to cut him for no reason... he'd make a solid backup at the very least" and the other side is "OMG FITZ SUX U ALL R LOOSERZ". I don't think *anyone* in this thread is "supporting" him. But there are some that are looking at the situation logically. Currently we have Fitz, TT and TJ (I think TT and TJ are free agents?). The only reasons you cut Fitz is if you pick up a clearly better FA AND you draft a QB that you are excited about. So if we do only one of those two things, there's very little incentive to outright cut Fitz, even if he's not the best QB in the world.
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 It's kind of funny. One side is saying "hey, he's not the greatest, but his contract makes it silly to cut him for no reason... he'd make a solid backup at the very least" and the other side is "OMG FITZ SUX U ALL R LOOSERZ". I don't think *anyone* in this thread is "supporting" him. But there are some that are looking at the situation logically. Currently we have Fitz, TT and TJ (I think TT and TJ are free agents?). The only reasons you cut Fitz is if you pick up a clearly better FA AND you draft a QB that you are excited about. So if we do only one of those two things, there's very little incentive to outright cut Fitz, even if he's not the best QB in the world. Not sure I understand. My position on Fitz is pure logic. Bills still owe him a boatload of guaranteed cash and out of likely FA QBs, only Matt Moore could be seen as an improvement. So why would you cut Fitz outright, when the draft class is weak and the next best FA QB is a Matt Moore or a Travaris Jackson?
Thisistheyear Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I didn't read past the topic. Is someone making an argument for Fitz? He's a great guy and all, but anyone who watched him play the last two years knows that he doesn't have enough of the tools. He will either be cut or forced to renegotiate. The bonus served as both a reward if he played well and an escape clause for the team if things turned out the way they did.
Dorkington Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Not sure I understand. My position on Fitz is pure logic. Bills still owe him a boatload of guaranteed cash and out of likely FA QBs, only Matt Moore could be seen as an improvement. So why would you cut Fitz outright, when the draft class is weak and the next best FA QB is a Matt Moore or a Travaris Jackson? I think you misread me. You and I are on the same page.
papazoid Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Not sure I understand. My position on Fitz is pure logic. Bills still owe him a boatload of guaranteed cash and out of likely FA QBs, only Matt Moore could be seen as an improvement. So why would you cut Fitz outright, when the draft class is weak and the next best FA QB is a Matt Moore or a Travaris Jackson? the bills "owe" him NOTHING !!!! (in cash)......he has already received ALL the guaranteed $24 mil of his contract thru signing bonus and salary. he is due a roster bonus of $3 mil in early march of 2013 at the start of the league year (which he will never see, as he will be cut). the salary cap issue is different, by cutting him before March, they only save $500,000 in salary cap, the rest would be carried in 2013 as "dead money". (could be as high as $8 mil in cap dead money). CONTRACT INFO: 10/28/2011: Signed a seven-year, $62.195 million contract. The deal contains $24 million guaranteed, including a $10 million signing bonus. An annual $200,000 workout bonus is available throughout the contract's life. 2013: $4.25 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2014: $4.35 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2015: $7.2 million, 2016: $8.75 million, 2017: $9.45 million, 2018: Free Agent....(his 2011 & 2012 salary info was omitted). what is clear is that he has remaining An annual $200,000 workout bonus throughout the contract's life. 2013: $4.25 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2014: $4.35 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2015: $7.2 million, 2016: $8.75 million, 2017: $9.45 million which TOTALS $41 mil Edited January 10, 2013 by papazoid
johnnywo Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Time to draft Nassib and the Cuse era will begin! NO
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 the bills "owe" him NOTHING !!!! (in cash)......he has already received ALL the guaranteed $24 mil of his contract thru signing bonus and salary. he is due a roster bonus of $3 mil in early march of 2013 at the start of the league year (which he will never see, as he will be cut). the salary cap issue is different, by cutting him before March, they only save $500,000 in salary cap, the rest would be carried in 2013 as "dead money". CONTRACT INFO: 10/28/2011: Signed a seven-year, $62.195 million contract. The deal contains $24 million guaranteed, including a $10 million signing bonus. An annual $200,000 workout bonus is available throughout the contract's life. 2013: $4.25 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2014: $4.35 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2015: $7.2 million, 2016: $8.75 million, 2017: $9.45 million, 2018: Free Agent....(his 2011 & 2012 salary info was omitted). what is clear is that he has remaining An annual $200,000 workout bonus throughout the contract's life. 2013: $4.25 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2014: $4.35 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2015: $7.2 million, 2016: $8.75 million, 2017: $9.45 million which TOTALS $41 mil Do the math. If we go by the contract details on Billsdaily (Steve is usually close to the truth in his Front Office section) - Fitz received a $10 mil signing bonus in 2011, and was paid a $5 mil option bonus + $2.8 mil base salary in 2012. That adds up to $17.8 mil. His contract calls for an additional $6.2 mil in payments to hit the $24 mil guarantee. I don't know how those would be structured, but he has not hit the guarantees yet.
papazoid Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Do the math. If we go by the contract details on Billsdaily (Steve is usually close to the truth in his Front Office section) - Fitz received a $10 mil signing bonus in 2011, and was paid a $5 mil option bonus + $2.8 mil base salary in 2012. That adds up to $17.8 mil. His contract calls for an additional $6.2 mil in payments to hit the $24 mil guarantee. I don't know how those would be structured, but he has not hit the guarantees yet. i'm not positive who's info is 100% accurate......but i put more faith in Rotoworld & Mark Gaughan of the buffalo news than billsdaily....but ya never know.... if you go by rotoworlds numbers the original contract was for $62 mil and there is $40 mil left, which means he already got $22mil in bonus and salary. year #1- 2011- $13.65 mil base & $10 million signing bonus year #2- 2012- $ 2.8 mil base + $5.0 mil bonus year #3- 2013- $4.25 mil base & $3.0 mil bonus year #4- 2014- $ 4.35 mil base & $3.0 mil bonus year #5- 2015- $ 7.2 mil base year #6- 2016- $ 8.75 mil base year #7 -2017- $ 9.45 mil base According to Mark Gaughan of the Buffalo News, quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick won’t be around to try to help them avoid a fifth such season in 2013. Gaughan writes that “it seems obvious” that Fitzpatrick won’t see any more of the money from the contract he signed last season. Per Gaughan, the Bills have already paid Fitzpatrick all of the money that he’s guaranteed from the six-year, $62 million deal and that the team would actually gain nearly $500,000 of cap room by cutting him before a $3 million roster bonus is due. Fitzpatrick would still count $10 million against the cap next year if the team cuts him, a big number but not one that Gaughan believes will stand in the way of Buffalo moving on to another quarterback. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/24/report-it-seems-obvious-ryan-fitzpatrick-done-in-buffalo/
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 i'm not positive who's info is 100% accurate......but i put more faith in Rotoworld & Mark Gaughan of the buffalo news than billsdaily....but ya never know.... if you go by rotoworlds numbers the original contract was for $62 mil and there is $40 mil left, which means he already got $22mil in bonus and salary. year #1- 2011- $13.65 mil base & $10 million signing bonus year #2- 2012- $ 2.8 mil base + $5.0 mil bonus year #3- 2013- $4.25 mil base & $3.0 mil bonus year #4- 2014- $ 4.35 mil base & $3.0 mil bonus year #5- 2015- $ 7.2 mil base year #6- 2016- $ 8.75 mil base year #7 -2017- $ 9.45 mil base According to Mark Gaughan of the Buffalo News, quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick won’t be around to try to help them avoid a fifth such season in 2013. Gaughan writes that “it seems obvious” that Fitzpatrick won’t see any more of the money from the contract he signed last season. Per Gaughan, the Bills have already paid Fitzpatrick all of the money that he’s guaranteed from the six-year, $62 million deal and that the team would actually gain nearly $500,000 of cap room by cutting him before a $3 million roster bonus is due. Fitzpatrick would still count $10 million against the cap next year if the team cuts him, a big number but not one that Gaughan believes will stand in the way of Buffalo moving on to another quarterback. http://profootballta...one-in-buffalo/ If you add up the contract numbers above, you get to $71.5 mil. How does that square with a $62 mil total deal? The total payout in 2011 is questionable. I have a hard time believing Bills paid him $25 million in 2011. His original deal from 2009 called for $2.8 mil salary in 2011. I don't believe Bills paid him an additional $21 million to extend his contract in 2011. Even if Gaughn's numbers are somehow correct, Bills still owe Fitz $3 mil under the guarantees. Factor that in, plus add in the cost of the new veteran QB salary of at least $3 million, and you have all the reason in the world to keep Fitz for at least another year.
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 2011 is wrong...my bad...salary should be $3.65 Yes, but you can't count the full 2011 salary in the extension because that was still covered under the original deal and Bills already paid him for 1/2 of the 2011 season when he extended. So if you add up everything he's received from the extension to now, you're about $5 mil - $6 mil short of the $24 mil guarantee. I don't know where Gaughn got his info, but the contract numbers don't add up to $24 million, unless Fitz received a super bonus for stellar performance over the last 22 games.
Dibs Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 This site has player contract numbers....but doesn't show past years. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/ryan-fitzpatrick/ According to this, his 10M signing bonus is equally spread over the first 5 years. This means if he is cut before the 2013 season he will at least be owed 6M of his guaranteed money.
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 This site has player contract numbers....but doesn't show past years. http://www.spotrac.c...an-fitzpatrick/ According to this, his 10M signing bonus is equally spread over the first 5 years. This means if he is cut before the 2013 season he will at least be owed 6M of his guaranteed money. That looks like a spread of the contract for salary cap purposes, not how the payments are staggered. The figures show a prorated $10 mil signing bonus and the prorated $5 mil option bonus. I think he's received those payments in full already.
papazoid Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Yes, but you can't count the full 2011 salary in the extension because that was still covered under the original deal and Bills already paid him for 1/2 of the 2011 season when he extended. So if you add up everything he's received from the extension to now, you're about $5 mil - $6 mil short of the $24 mil guarantee. I don't know where Gaughn got his info, but the contract numbers don't add up to $24 million, unless Fitz received a super bonus for stellar performance over the last 22 games. i don't know who is right...i'm doing so more digging gaughan says he's been paid all his guaranteed money.... rotoworld says he's owed $40 of the $62, which means he's been paid $22...... ESPN says The extension is valued at $59 million over six years, including $24 million in guaranteed money, team and league sources told ESPN senior NFL analyst Chris Mortensen. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7160727/ryan-fitzpatrick-buffalo-bills-agrees-new-contract now Gaughn says December 24, 2012 - 8:51 AM By Mark Gaughan Buffalo Bills quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick has received $21 million of the six-year, $62 million contract he signed in October 2011. It seems obvious he's not going to see the rest of the money in the wake of the Bills' disappointing season. For the record, here are the pertinent details on Fitzpatrick's contract. It will not cost the Bills any more to cut him than to keep him on the team. Actually, they will save almost a half million dollars. Fitzpatrick is due a $3 million roster bonus in March. If he gets cut before that bonus is paid, then he will count $10 million against the Bills’ salary cap in 2013. That's a lot, but not so much that he will have to be retained. If Fitzpatrick is on the roster, his cap number for 2013 will be $10.45 million. Fitzpatrick's base salaries going forward are $4.25 million in 2013, $4.35 million in 2014, $7.2 million in 2015, $8.75 million in 2016 and $9.45 million in 2017. Fitzpatrick's per-year salary average of $9.8 million made him the 19th highest paid quarterback in the league this season.
GG Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 i don't know who is right...i'm doing so more digging gaughan says he's been paid all his guaranteed money.... rotoworld says he's owed $40 of the $62, which means he's been paid $22...... ESPN says The extension is valued at $59 million over six years, including $24 million in guaranteed money, team and league sources told ESPN senior NFL analyst Chris Mortensen. http://espn.go.com/n...es-new-contract now Gaughn says December 24, 2012 - 8:51 AM By Mark Gaughan Buffalo Bills quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick has received $21 million of the six-year, $62 million contract he signed in October 2011. It seems obvious he's not going to see the rest of the money in the wake of the Bills' disappointing season. For the record, here are the pertinent details on Fitzpatrick's contract. It will not cost the Bills any more to cut him than to keep him on the team. Actually, they will save almost a half million dollars. Fitzpatrick is due a $3 million roster bonus in March. If he gets cut before that bonus is paid, then he will count $10 million against the Bills’ salary cap in 2013. That's a lot, but not so much that he will have to be retained. If Fitzpatrick is on the roster, his cap number for 2013 will be $10.45 million. Fitzpatrick's base salaries going forward are $4.25 million in 2013, $4.35 million in 2014, $7.2 million in 2015, $8.75 million in 2016 and $9.45 million in 2017. Fitzpatrick's per-year salary average of $9.8 million made him the 19th highest paid quarterback in the league this season. Much is obviously unknown, but even if we go by Gaughn's numbers, Fitz received $21 million so far. So he's still $3 million short of the $24 million guaranteed. I don't know how Gaughn reached the conclusion that Bills don't owe Fitz anything when he's reporting that Bills paid Fitz $21 million under the extension. I don't know the contract details or what payments were made and when. I'm just saying that the reported numbers don't add up and it appears that Bills are still on the hook for a big payment to Fitz.
Dibs Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 That looks like a spread of the contract for salary cap purposes, not how the payments are staggered. The figures show a prorated $10 mil signing bonus and the prorated $5 mil option bonus. I think he's received those payments in full already. You could be right....but the only thing that would explain this would be if his contract was actually a 5 year contract with the option of 2 additional years. I say this due to the fact that teams cannot alter how a signing bonus is proportioned towards the cap....i.e. it has to be evenly divided through every year of the contract.
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