Russ Brandon named President/CEO

[GibranHamdansGhost]

And the losing continues. Bad teams always promote from within.

[Mr. WEO]

No, he traded Jackson AFTER he saw throughout training camp and pre-season, how well Wilson was, and at the very least he was going to be #2. There is no reason to keep Jackson as #3, especially if you can pick up a draft pick for him.

 

As to your first point, they may well have been wrong, but your back-up QB is not affecting every play other than sending in the plays to your starter. Chan was not going to start Wilson over Fitz. It's a good discussion I guess to GUESS whether he would have played him at all the whole season. I know we had a thread on it. I think he would have but not until the season was over.

 

No one is arguing it was a not a mistake in retrospect, and again, I wanted Wilson myself, but the 50/50 hindsight people are displaying here is rather remarkable.

 

Jackson was cut in preseason, after not even playing in game 2 or 3. Yes, it was because Carroll saw how great Wilson was very early on. The other poster made it seem Carroll was just lucky. You would have to agree that took soem foresight given how short Wilson was and how a sage like Buddy had passed on him.

 

But no, the hindisight on this one issue isn't remarkable at all. Mainly because it's not all hindsight. Plenty of civilians right here on this board (yourself included) could have made this pick (and did)--or at least not have reached for the great TJ Graham.

 

What's remarkable is the assumption, always, that when fans make a claim that turns out to be correct, even in real time, they are called "lucky" or whatnot, yet when a GM misses on the same play it is referred to "a bad decision only in hindsight", as though these guys are beyond reproach. Obviously some of them are really bad at their jobs.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[Kelly the Dog]

Jackson was cut in preseason, after not even playing in game 2 or 3. Yes, it was because Carroll saw how great Wilson was very early on. The other poster made it seem Carroll was just lucky. You would have to agree that took soem foresight given how short Wilson was and how a sage like Buddy had passed on him.

 

No, Jackson was traded to the Bills as soon as Wilson was named the starter and the Seahags determined that Matt Flynn's shoulder was okay.

 

http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawksblog/2018999426_report_tarvaris.html

[thebandit27]

Jackson was cut in preseason, after not even playing in game 2 or 3. Yes, it was because Carroll saw how great Wilson was very early on. The other poster made it seem Carroll was just lucky. You would have to agree that took soem foresight given how short Wilson was and how a sage like Buddy had passed on him.

 

But no, the hindisight on this one issue isn't remarkable at all. Mainly because it's not all hindsight. Plenty of civilians right here on this board (yourself included) could have made this pick (and did)--or at least not have reached for the great TJ Graham.

 

What's remarkable is the assumption, always, that when fans make a claim that turns out to be correct, even in real time, they are called "lucky" or whatnot, yet when a GM misses on the same play it is referred to "a bad decision only in hindsight", as though these guys are beyond reproach. Obviously some of them are really bad at their jobs.

 

That is a total misrepresentation of what I wrote. Here is the exact post:

 

Not exactly, since Flynn started the first 2 pre-season games for Seattle. Carroll announced from the time that they signed Flynn that it would be an open QB competition, and it was.

 

Credit him for being open-minded, but it's not like he drafted Wilson and immediately named him the starter...he gave the kid a shot, and he responded by winning the job. Good coaching indeed, but not some great foresight.

 

You said that Carroll saw how good Wilson was immediately. I said that it wasn't exactly immediate, since he started Flynn for the first 2 preseason games after having an open competition from the very beginning. I then complemented Carroll for his coaching.

 

In what way did I make it seem like Carroll was "just lucky"?

Edited January 3, 2013 by thebandit27

[Dawgg]

And the losing continues. Bad teams always promote from within.

^ This.

[Kelly the Dog]

^ This.

Right. Like the Patriots and Steelers.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[Mr. WEO]

No, Jackson was traded to the Bills as soon as Wilson was named the starter and the Seahags determined that Matt Flynn's shoulder was okay.

 

http://seattletimes....t_tarvaris.html

 

Traded not cut, yes. The point is he was their reigning starter and he was deemed expendable and traded in preseason becuase Carroll liked what he saw in Wilson.

That is a total misrepresentation of what I wrote. Here is the exact post:

 

 

 

You said that Carroll saw how good Wilson was immediately. I said that it wasn't exactly immediate, since he started Flynn for the first 2 preseason games after having an open competition from the very beginning. I then complemented Carroll for his coaching.

 

In what way did I make it seem like Carroll was "just lucky"?

 

He drafted him and pegged him as starter after a few preseason drives. That's pretty immediate for a 3rd round reach that "31 other GMs passed" on and after you just went out and guaranteed Flynn 10 million before week 1. That's not good coaching, it's foresight.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[Dawgg]

Right. Like the Patriots and Steelers.

 

You're playing a childish game in an effort to justify your favorite team's futility.

 

Even you know the difference between promoting from within in an organization that is consistently winning (Pats, Steelers) versus promoting from within in an organization that owns the longest playoff drought in NFL history (Bills). Let's be adults here

[JohnC]

I myself was pulling for Russell Wilson with that pick. I was all over him before the draft. I would have much preferred, at the time and not in retrospect, for the Bills to have taken Wilson over TJ Graham. I was pissed when we didn't take Wilson. The point I have been making is 1] that everyone in the league thought it was a gamble, that his height WOULD matter. Everyone. It's almost inarguable because all of the scouting reports said it and everyone when they talked about him said it and gushed about it. It wasnt just Nix it was everyone. I was basing my own like for Wilson on the fact he had that cannon, and he didn't seem to get his passes blocked, he always found the right lanes, etc. I, like a lot of people, had a stiffie watching the Gruden special on Wilson. He was incredible. And 2] The logic behind picking a speed WR even if he wasnt going to start was a sound logic and not a case of Nix being a total idiot or not knowing QB talent or anything else.

 

But I also thought it was a huge gamble that his height wouldn't matter in the NFL like everyone else.

 

You have to view Nix's passing on Wilson in a wider context. He passed on other good quality prospects throughout his stint. He passed on Kaepernick and Dalton for Aaron Williams. As you noted he not only passed on Wilson for Graham but he also passed on Kirk Cousins for the same "track" receiver. These too oftened missed opportunities have come to define thisbackwater franchise.

 

The highest priority for Nix when he assumed his position should have been an aggressive pursuit of a franchise qb. He and Chan felt that Fitz was good enough. They put their trust in a veteran qb who was an erratic passer with a weak arm. Two traits that were unlikely to be corrected. What does that say about his judgment for the most important positon in the game and the most influential determinant to the success of a team? What does it say about his urgency to address such a critical need that his only qb draft pick in three years was Levi Brown?

 

What is maddening about this flawed franchise is that no one can make the claim that there weren't reasonable opportunities to acquire good prospects. Dalton and Kaepernick were bypassed to draft a CB, Aaron Williams.The following year Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins were on the board when the Bills drated a "track" receiver who probably would have been on the board in the next round.

 

In all probability Buddy Nix is being phased out with the authority flowing to Whaley. That is a good thing. Russ Brandon is not a fool. He is taking over a very laggard organization. He realizes that this irrelevant and fading franchise can't continue to conduct business as usual. As the overall boss his success is tied to the people he empowers to make the football decisions. He has a firm basis to make a judgment on Nix: his losing record. That's certainly not what Brandon had in mind as he now sits on top of the organizational chart.

Edited January 3, 2013 by JohnC

[thebandit27]

He drafted him and pegged him as starter after a few preseason drives. That's pretty immediate for a 3rd round reach that "31 other GMs passed" on and after you just went out and guaranteed Flynn 10 million before week 1. That's not good coaching, it's foresight.

 

So you have zero reference to me saying that Carroll was just lucky...yeah, guess we'll just move on from that one since you chose not to address it.

 

As for "immediate", well, no, the definition of immediate is "right away" or "instantaneously". That's not what happened. He made the decision after seeing Wilson play 2 halves of preseason games...yes, it was a good coaching decision based on evaluation of his play in the NFL. Make no mistake, they went into the preseason with Flynn as their starter, which is why he started the first 2 preseason games.

 

And by the way, John Schneider drafted Wilson, not Pete Carroll, so I think heaping all of this praise upon him for his great foresight during the draft is also erroneous:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/30/seahawks-think-many-teams-wanted-bruce-irvin-russell-wilson/

[Dawgg]

You have to view Nix's passing on Wilson in a wider context. He passed on other good quality prospects throughout his stint. He passed on Kaepernick and Dalton for Aaron Williams. As you noted he not only passed on Wilson for Graham but he also passed on Kirk Cousins for the same "track" receiver. These too oftened missed opportunities has come to define thisbackwater franchise.

 

The highest priority for Nix when he assumed his position should have been an aggressive pursuit of a franchise qb. He and Chan felt that Fitz was good enough. They put their trust in a veteran qb who was an erratic passer with a weak arm. Two traits that were unlikely to be corrected. What does that say about his judgment for the most important positon in the game and the most influential determinant to the success of a team? What does it say about his urgency to address such a critical need that his only qb draft pick in three years was Levi Brown?

 

What is maddening about this flawed franchise is that no one can make the claim that there weren't reasonable opportunities to acquire good prospects. Dalton and Kaepernick were bypassed to draft a CB, Aaron Williams. Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins were on the board when the Bills drated a "track" receiver who probably would have been on the board in the next round.

 

In all probability Buddy Nix is being phased out with the authority flowing to Whaley. That is a good thing. Russ Brandon is not a fool. He is taking over a very laggard organization. He realizes that this irrelevant and fading franchise can't continue to conduct business as usual. As the overall boss his success is tied to the people he empowers to make the football decisions. He has a firm basis to make a judgment on Nix: his losing record. That's certainly not what Brandon had in mind as he now sits on top of the organizational chart.

 

Agreed, and well said. I'm just not convinced Whaley will magically fix the problems that plague this moribund franchise. Whaley is the Assistant GM. He heads scouting. He, along with Nix, is responsible for the very dubious gradings that result in the ill-advised draft day decisions that continue to plague this franchise. The assumption that a Nix to Whaley transition will fix all problems necessarily implies that Whaley had little to do with the dubious draft decisions. Do you truly believe that? I sure don't but hope I'm wrong.

[Kelly the Dog]

You're playing a childish game in an effort to justify your favorite team's futility.

 

Even you know the difference between promoting from within in an organization that is consistently winning (Pats, Steelers) versus promoting from within in an organization that owns the longest playoff drought in NFL history (Bills). Let's be adults here

No, I'm saying there is not a good or right way to do it, and I'm saying that the Bills do not always promote from within. They are getting an outside coach. The guy about to run the football side was brought in from another winning organization to eventually run the show, which may or may not be considered promoting from within. Nix really made his mark with the Chargers and not with his earlier stint with the Bills. Donohoe was brought in from outside and started this downfall. All of the Bills rotten head coaches were not promoted from within but were brought in from other organizations.

[Mr. WEO]

So you have zero reference to me saying that Carroll was just lucky...yeah, guess we'll just move on from that one since you chose not to address it.

 

As for "immediate", well, no, the definition of immediate is "right away" or "instantaneously". That's not what happened. He made the decision after seeing Wilson play 2 halves of preseason games...yes, it was a good coaching decision based on evaluation of his play in the NFL. Make no mistake, they went into the preseason with Flynn as their starter, which is why he started the first 2 preseason games.

 

And by the way, John Schneider drafted Wilson, not Pete Carroll, so I think heaping all of this praise upon him for his great foresight during the draft is also erroneous:

 

http://profootballta...russell-wilson/

 

I had a clear understanding of what you meant. You just reinforced it by giving Carroll no credit for drafting Wilson.

 

So your contention is that Carroll had little or no input to drafting Wilson, by everyone's assessment a huge risk, and "coached him up" in parts of 2 preseason games into the starter?

 

Wow! Carroll must be the greatest coach ever!!

[KOKBILLS]

Not if they're to be believed. He'll have plenty of scouting input, but it sounds like Whaley and Brandon will have significant roles in terms of setting the draft board, designing the strategy, etc., and that Brandon will have final say over the picks. It doesn't guarantee a different or better outcome, but it does equate to change.

 

I'm interested where you got that idea out of these quotes...

 

" Buddy Nix is our General Manager. Buddy Nix will run the football operation much like he has run it for the last three years... "

 

"I am going to be real clear about one thing because I know you are going to ask it. I will not be drafting people. I will not be making the final decision on a free agent. I will empower the general manager, Buddy Nix, to do that. Do I have final authority and say? Yes. That is what Buddy Nix, the general manager, does. He identifies personnel. He runs that side of our operation. OK? "

 

Sounds to me like Brandon does not want much to do with the Football side...he said so...And he's leaving an old school scout in charge of that side again...Because in Brandon's own opinion there is not anyone more qualified than Buddy...He said it (in so many words)...Not me...

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

How was Graham going to "put our offense over the top" when we don't have a quarterback!?

 

Larry Fitzgerald has been a part of some very poor offenses. Peyton Manning (since coming into his own) has not and never will. It's virtually all about the quarterback.

 

This offense wasn't going over the top of anything without replacing Fitz, track star on the outside or not.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Big Bad Boone

[Dawgg]

As for "immediate", well, no, the definition of immediate is "right away" or "instantaneously". That's not what happened. He made the decision after seeing Wilson play 2 halves of preseason games...yes, it was a good coaching decision based on evaluation of his play in the NFL. Make no mistake, they went into the preseason with Flynn as their starter, which is why he started the first 2 preseason games.

 

You're now doing what Kelly and other apologists are doing: picking at semantics in an effort to justify the poor track record of this inept, but highly entrenched front office. Relatively speaking, in the context of a full NFL season, 2 halves of 2 preseason games can be adequately considered immediate. Let's be adults here and not split hairs

 

And by the way, John Schneider drafted Wilson, not Pete Carroll, so I think heaping all of this praise upon him for his great foresight during the draft is also erroneous:

 

http://profootballta...russell-wilson/

 

You are 100% correct. And who's John Schneider? He's the 3rd youngest GM in the league, hired by Seattle after spending 8 years with Green Bay. He brought a fresh perspective and new ideas to the organization and helped turn the franchise around in 3 years. If only the Bills would take a similar approach. Instead, they dole out promotions.

[Kelly the Dog]

You have to view Nix's passing on Wilson in a wider context. He passed on other good quality prospects throughout his stint. He passed on Kaepernick and Dalton for Aaron Williams. As you noted he not only passed on Wilson for Graham but he also passed on Kirk Cousins for the same "track" receiver. These too oftened missed opportunities have come to define thisbackwater franchise.

 

The highest priority for Nix when he assumed his position should have been an aggressive pursuit of a franchise qb. He and Chan felt that Fitz was good enough. They put their trust in a veteran qb who was an erratic passer with a weak arm. Two traits that were unlikely to be corrected. What does that say about his judgment for the most important positon in the game and the most influential determinant to the success of a team? What does it say about his urgency to address such a critical need that his only qb draft pick in three years was Levi Brown?

 

What is maddening about this flawed franchise is that no one can make the claim that there weren't reasonable opportunities to acquire good prospects. Dalton and Kaepernick were bypassed to draft a CB, Aaron Williams.The following year Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins were on the board when the Bills drated a "track" receiver who probably would have been on the board in the next round.

 

In all probability Buddy Nix is being phased out with the authority flowing to Whaley. That is a good thing. Russ Brandon is not a fool. He is taking over a very laggard organization. He realizes that this irrelevant and fading franchise can't continue to conduct business as usual. As the overall boss his success is tied to the people he empowers to make the football decisions. He has a firm basis to make a judgment on Nix: his losing record. That's certainly not what Brandon had in mind as he now sits on top of the organizational chart.

This is what bothers me the most. You guys act like Nix and Gailey and Whaley have no idea what is going on in the world and in the NFL, and that they hate the QB position. It's just stupid, IMO.

 

Nix wanted to draft a QB, there wasn't a franchise guy available at each time he chose. As stated he wanted and would have drafted Newton. EVERY single pick in every round there was likely a QB he liked but didn't love as much as another player at a different position, and he decided, based on every factor, to go a different direction. It was a huge mistake because Fitz floundered, and Tyler Thigpen (whom his coach loved) and Vince Young and Tavaris Jackson floundered.

 

He doesn't deserve the job any more, and is being phased out because his selections were just not good enough, and his coach was just not good enough, and his QB choice was just not good enough. So he deserves to go. But 100 things went into all of that happening and he is not a total idiot, or uninformed about the QB position or a doddering old fool. He made reasonable calculations that didn't work out so he needs to go and that is what is happening.

 

Kapernick and Dalton and Alex Smith would all have got absolutely murdered on this team, and would have sucked balls.

 

I had a clear understanding of what you meant. You just reinforced it by giving Carroll no credit for drafting Wilson.

 

So your contention is that Carroll had little or no input to drafting Wilson, by everyone's assessment a huge risk, and "coached him up" in parts of 2 preseason games into the starter?

 

Wow! Carroll must be the greatest coach ever!!

]

Actually John Schneider drafted Wilson and he was named Executive of the Year for that and other moves. He apparently told Seahawk reporters he wasn't leaving the draft without Bruce Irvin and Wilson and got them both. That is a good GM, obviously. I would love that guy. He's made some bad picks, too. He traded for Whitehurst I think, and he signed Flynn. But then hit a homerun with Wilson.

[thebandit27]

I had a clear understanding of what you meant. You just reinforced it by giving Carroll no credit for drafting Wilson.

 

So your contention is that Carroll had little or no input to drafting Wilson, by everyone's assessment a huge risk, and "coached him up" in parts of 2 preseason games into the starter?

 

Wow! Carroll must be the greatest coach ever!!

 

Actually, WEO, you've just demonstrated for the 3rd time now that, indeed, you did not have a clear understanding of what I meant. I was very, very clear in my point. I give Carroll lots of credit for starting Wilson (as I've now said 4 times and you seem to conveniently ignore every...single...time), it was a great coaching decision. He did not have some incredible foresight that you seem to be awarding him for drafting Wison (not "having input", you clearly said that Carroll, himself, drafted Wilson) and naming him the starter immediately. Those 2 things did not happen...that was the point.

 

And my contention regarding Wilson is that the GM drafted the player, as he seemed to be stating in the PFT item I linked to...honestly man, this isn't complicated.

 

You're now doing what Kelly and other apologists are doing: picking at semantics in an effort to justify the poor track record of this inept, but highly entrenched front office. Relatively speaking, in the context of a full NFL season, 2 halves of 2 preseason games can be adequately considered immediate. Let's be adults here and not split hairs

 

So now you're in on the act of arguing a point I never made as well?

 

Please show me where in this entire discussion with WEO, which you chimed in on, I said anything absolving Buddy Nix for not drafting a QB. In fact, if you would be so diligent as to read my posts in this thread, you'd see that--multiple times--I've said that Nix's biggest error in his tenure is not drafting a QB (namely Dalton and Kaepernick, because those guys were IMO the easiest to identify as likely franchise QBs).

 

And you too seem to be missing the 4 times I've given Carroll credit for deciding to start Wilson...no, it wasn't immediate, it was based on preseason play. Immediate would be naming him the starter from training camp.

 

Honestly, it was a minor point that I made, and it was met with major defiance. Well, if you're going to be defiant about your statement, it should be correct. It wasn't...simple as that.

 

You are 100% correct. And who's John Schneider? He's the 3rd youngest GM in the league, hired by Seattle after spending 8 years with Green Bay. He brought a fresh perspective and new ideas to the organization and helped turn the franchise around in 3 years. If only the Bills would take a similar approach. Instead, they dole out promotions.

 

So maybe if the Bills handed over the reins of the franchise to a young GM who had a chance to turn the team around it would work?

 

I wonder when they'll think of that...

[Kelly the Dog]

You're now doing what Kelly and other apologists are doing: picking at semantics in an effort to justify the poor track record of this inept, but highly entrenched front office. Relatively speaking, in the context of a full NFL season, 2 halves of 2 preseason games can be adequately considered immediate. Let's be adults here and not split hairs

 

 

 

You are 100% correct. And who's John Schneider? He's the 3rd youngest GM in the league, hired by Seattle after spending 8 years with Green Bay. He brought a fresh perspective and new ideas to the organization and helped turn the franchise around in 3 years. If only the Bills would take a similar approach. Instead, they dole out promotions.

And Wilson was Schneider's third swing at a QB in three years. His first was a complete washout. His second didn't beat out a rookie 3rd round pick (who was not lighting it up, he was just playing efficiently). The Bills new GM is 41 and spent 9 years with the Steelers in similar capacities.

 

And I'm not being an apologist. I think Buddy should be gone.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[Dawgg]

And Wilson was Schneider's third swing at a QB in three years. His first was a complete washout. His second didn't beat out a rookie 3rd round pick (who was not lighting it up, he was just playing efficiently).

 

And I love that! He was relentless in his search for a franchise QB. Nobody expects Buddy and his staff to be perfect. All fans deserve is a strategic vision, which Buddy has shown he lacks. Hard to blame him, as he's best suited as a scout and not as a general manager.

 

The Bills new GM is 41 and spent 9 years with the Steelers in similar capacities.

 

I hope he's the answer. But as I stated in an earlier post:

 

Whaley is the Assistant GM. He heads scouting. He, along with Nix, is responsible for the very dubious gradings that result in the ill-advised draft day decisions that continue to plague this franchise. The assumption that a Nix-to-Whaley transition will fix all problems implies that Whaley had little to do with the dubious draft decisions. Do you truly believe that? Do you believe that Whaley, despite working right alongside Nix, bears little responsibility for the shoddy decision making? I sure don't that but hope I'm wrong.