mrags Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 How will selling the team now help him dodge the assumed increase in the estate tax rate? it wouldn't. But the Capital Gains tax raising in 1-1-13 would.
Delete This Account Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) I'd say from what's out there it's bordering on a coin flip. With the mess that is sports journalism - Thurman's tweet and a little guess work could've spiraled into an article, and now 8 other guys are reporting on that article acting like they have a source, then every word is viewed through the lense of "everyone's reporting this already - I bet it's another sign." The three things we know is nix tends to shoot things pretty straight and likes continuity unless a better option is clearly available, the last month sucked, and there is VERY LITTLE in the way of leaks in Ralph's inner circle. From there it's all guess work. don't know if sports journalism is a mess. the trouble is, it might appear to be more of a mess than it is, given that so many people are speculating on everything, and there's more ways to speculate, and it's more immediate. there are things that i've heard and attempted to verify, and may believe to be somewhat true if not entirely, but i can't report them as of yet because i don't have someone with direct knowledge of the facts. i don't think that's irresponsible. i'm sure there are colleagues of mine in the same boat. you yourself pointed out that few things get out of the inner circle. and that is certainly the case. what happens, though, is someone tweets something, and someone else claims to have "inner sources" and many go riding roughshod speculating on what it means. it takes time and patience to track some of these things down. and many prove to be wrong. the AP for example has not reported anything because, at this point, there is nothing new and fact-based to report. doesn't mean we're not checking. jw as an example of one rumor/speculation that can be crossed off the list: i understand that a while back that the proposal for a stadium in Niagara Falls has long been off the table. Edited December 30, 2012 by john wawrow
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) I think if he gifts the team to his children, than he would only pay the 35% tax rate if its done this year. The children would then have the asset at the current value and would only have to pay capital gains on the difference of value when they sell. So on a team worth ~800 Million, the savings would be ~160 Million dollars. So he could gift the team to his kids with the understanding that they should sell it when he passes. He can then be hired in a role which has ultimate control of the team assuming his children go by his wishes. Or they can appoint someone else to be in charge, but he still is the master who ultimately tells what the team should do. His kids can always fire people if they do not do what Ralph wants. I'm just speculating here, but it seems feasible to save a ton of money. The bolded statement is wrong - - offspring only get a stepped-up tax basis in the team if they inherit it: http://wills.about.c...atisgifttax.htm When property is gifted away, the recipient of the gift will receive the gift donor's current income tax basis in the gifted property. This means that for highly appreciated assets, such as stock or real estate that the gift donor bought at a low value, the estate taxes saved by removing the value of the appreciated property from the gift donor's estate must be weighed against the capital gains tax that will be paid when the recipient later sells the highly appreciated property. In your hypothetical scenario, if Ralph passes after 12/31/12, and his offspring sell the team shortly thereafter, then his offspring would pay capital gains taxes on almost the full 800 million current value of the team (at a rate widely expected to go up from the present 15% to 20% or more). Even if 2013 capital gains tax rates stayed at 15%, I think the Wilson family's total tax burden in your hypothetical would be the 35% gift tax paid by Ralph upon making the gift in 2012, followed by the 15% capital gains tax that the offspring would pay upon the sale. Plus, Ralph would have to come up with 35% of $800 million = $280 million to pay the required gift tax bill. That would take some doing, even for Ralph. Did I miss something? Edited December 30, 2012 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead
mrags Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 What kind of stuff have you heard John? Is the rest of the media all in a tizzy over these recent rumors? I understand you won't give info that there's stuff going down but no way to prove it yet. That's ridiculous to think you would. But how are people reacting to these claims? Anything?
Delete This Account Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 What kind of stuff have you heard John? Is the rest of the media all in a tizzy over these recent rumors? I understand you won't give info that there's stuff going down but no way to prove it yet. That's ridiculous to think you would. But how are people reacting to these claims? Anything? made several calls, but nothing factual to report. don't want to dismiss them outright, because there's too much chatter out there, so difficult at this point to figure out if people are repeating the speculation or actually have direct knowledge to it. from what i gather from several folks, people might be over-reacting to Thurman's tweet as something that will have meaningful impact in the near future. i also know that one prominent agent, who represents several high-profile coaches, had not been contacted as of last Monday. jw
mrags Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) made several calls, but nothing factual to report. don't want to dismiss them outright, because there's too much chatter out there, so difficult at this point to figure out if people are repeating the speculation or actually have direct knowledge to it. from what i gather from several folks, people might be over-reacting to Thurman's tweet as something that will have meaningful impact in the near future. i also know that one prominent agent, who represents several high-profile coaches, had not been contacted as of last Monday. jw the last part is not good. Not good at all my friend. Have you talked to anyone of importance at OBD about any of these rumors? What kind of reactions were you getting from them? Anything out of the ordinary or the usual answers from them? Edited December 30, 2012 by mrags
NoSaint Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) don't know if sports journalism is a mess. the trouble is, it might appear to be more of a mess than it is, given that so many people are speculating on everything, and there's more ways to speculate, and it's more immediate. there are things that i've heard and attempted to verify, and may believe to be somewhat true if not entirely, but i can't report them as of yet because i don't have someone with direct knowledge of the facts. i don't think that's irresponsible. i'm sure there are colleagues of mine in the same boat. you yourself pointed out that few things get out of the inner circle. and that is certainly the case. what happens, though, is someone tweets something, and someone else claims to have "inner sources" and many go riding roughshod speculating on what it means. it takes time and patience to track some of these things down. and many prove to be wrong. the AP for example has not reported anything because, at this point, there is nothing new and fact-based to report. doesn't mean we're not checking. jw as an example of one rumor/speculation that can be crossed off the list: i understand that a while back that the proposal for a stadium in Niagara Falls has long been off the table. Youre good about it - I don't mean every single person by any means, but there are major issues in the field currently. in broad strokes, espn, many average fans gold standard and go to source is at times (by "at times" i mean "often") atrocious about standards. Couple that with some disappointments locally.... While you may actually abide by the real gold standards, a lot don't and it turns into a bad situation for fans speculating. I do appreciate that it seems your not in that grouping, as it gives me someone that is reliable when he does bring stuff up. Edited December 30, 2012 by NoSaint
Delete This Account Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 the last part is not good. Not good at all my friend. Have you talked to anyone of importance at OBD about any of these rumors? What kind of reactions were you getting from them? Anything out of the ordinary or the usual answers from them? yes and can't share. but let's keep in mind here, how many speculative reports have come up and been proven wrong. one for example, was the report about a year ago, that Buddy had informed the staff that he was stepping down after last year's draft. it took me a few minutes to shoot that one down. and yet, having that didn't necessarily mean this was something to report because nothing had happened, except some report that suggested that it was going to. you can't imagine how much time we here in the business spend attempting to verify rumors only to find out that they're off base if not wrong. jw Youre good about it - I don't mean every single person by any means, but there are major issues in the field currently. in broad strokes, espn, many average fans gold standard and go to source is at times (by "at times" i mean "often") atrocious about standards. Couple that with some disappointments locally.... While you may actually abide by the real gold standards, a lot don't and it turns into a bad situation for fans speculating. I do appreciate that it seems your not in that grouping, as it gives me someone that is reliable when he does bring stuff up. the AP is not the only one. when The Buffalo News reports something -- such as the lease deal or Mark beating everyone on the Gailey to be hired scoop -- you can take that to the bank. can't stress enough how difficult it is to wade through speculation and rumors, especially at this time of year. i'll report something when i'm confident i have it. that's all i can promise. jw
NoSaint Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 yes and can't share. but let's keep in mind here, how many speculative reports have come up and been proven wrong. one for example, was the report about a year ago, that Buddy had informed the staff that he was stepping down after last year's draft. it took me a few minutes to shoot that one down. and yet, having that didn't necessarily mean this was something to report because nothing had happened, except some report that suggested that it was going to. you can't imagine how much time we here in the business spend attempting to verify rumors only to find out that they're off base if not wrong. jw Having read the board this week, I can imagine its probably a bit much. Can you confirm if Thurman was given the team as a present at the holiday party? I heard Ralph gave him the keys to the stadium and a card inscribed: "TT, it's on like a mofo, merry Christmas, RW2"
Delete This Account Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Having read the board this week, I can imagine its probably a bit much. Can you confirm if Thurman was given the team as a present at the holiday party? I heard Ralph gave him the keys to the stadium and a card inscribed: "TT, it's on like a mofo, merry Christmas, RW2" i'd make a joke, but fear that it would be taken the wrong way and wind up adding to the speculation. so, let me just say: no, i have no knowledge of that having occurred. jw
mrags Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 i'd make a joke, but fear that it would be taken the wrong way and wind up adding to the speculation. so, let me just say: no, i have no knowledge of that having occurred. jw thats it. It proves that TT "on like a mofo" is the new owner of the bBills. Everyone rejoice. We are saved. Thanks John Wawrow for providing this information.
FistingBot Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 it wouldn't. But the Capital Gains tax raising in 1-1-13 would. This is correct. When a pro sports team is sold, the IRS considers the profits to be capital gains for the owner. So the difference between selling now at a rate of 15% and waiting until after January 1st 2013 (at the projected new rate of 20%) is significant when you consider he bought the team for only $25,000 and it is now valued at over $800 million. But I personally see no evidence he won't own the team until he dies, at which point it'll go up for auction (and the winning bidder will invariably overpay).
Mr. WEO Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that someone actually started, apparently seriously, a thread about Thomas and Kelly being new owners of the Bills.
vincec Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) the AP is not the only one. when The Buffalo News reports something -- such as the lease deal or Mark beating everyone on the Gailey to be hired scoop -- you can take that to the bank. can't stress enough how difficult it is to wade through speculation and rumors, especially at this time of year. i'll report something when i'm confident i have it. that's all i can promise. jw So you're saying that based on Mark Gaughan's article this morning, we can take it to the bank that the Bills will fire both Nix and Gailey this week? Edited December 30, 2012 by vincec
Chef Jim Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) it wouldn't. But the Capital Gains tax raising in 1-1-13 would. With the step up in basis still in tact that is irrelevant too unless of course he plans to sell before he dies. Hmmmmmm. So the deal needs to be done by Tuesday and if there is a deal it probably was done a bit ago. This would also give the Wilson's the ability to take advantage of their $10mill lifetime exclusion that goes away next year. Edited December 30, 2012 by Chef Jim
papazoid Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 the big news will be ralph cleans house.....nix, gailey and all coaches fired.....jim kelly will be given a position similar to what john elway has with the broncos (executive vice president of football operations) and asst gm doug whaley will be promoted to GM and report to kelly.
EasternOHBillsFan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 This could be the week, the glorious week, where the whole rotten machinery is cast aside and the New Era begins for the Bills. I surely hope the Buffalo News is right... this paves the way for new ownership in 2013. I'm pumped!!!
NoSaint Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 the big news will be ralph cleans house.....nix, gailey and all coaches fired.....jim kelly will be given a position similar to what john elway has with the broncos (executive vice president of football operations) and asst gm doug whaley will be promoted to GM and report to kelly. Isn't elway the GM this year as well? I thought he canned the former.
NoSaint Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) So you're saying that based on Mark Gaughan's article this morning, we can take it to the bank that the Bills will fire both Nix and Gailey this week? He confirmed it with another teams front office. His source isn't even with the bills. That does however maintain my previous comment that I don't think ANYTHING being reported is more than common sense guesses, as Ralph isn't talking. Edited December 30, 2012 by NoSaint
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