The Farming Cliff. A viewpoint from a farmer.

[3rdnlng]

I do. But not for the reasons you do.

 

 

 

I have met many libertarian Christians who are against the killing of animals for food, and even more who don't have a problem with eating animals but are against the institutionalized torture of animals that occurs on most factory farms. And just because I don't think something should be against the law, it does not mean I don't think it is morally wrong. I don't believe that laws should define our moral obligations. People should be free to make most choices for themselves. Having said that, I can see the argument (the libertarian argument) for making meat production against the law. My view (and the basis of my libertarianism) is that all sentient beings have the right to enjoy life with minimal interference from, and certainly without being tortured or killed by, other sentient beings. That is why I am anti-gun, vegan, and anti-tax, anti big government, anti-socialized medicine, etc.

 

Back to animals, let me ask it this way:

 

Do you believe it is morally wrong to torture a puppy for a couple of years, and then kill and eat it?

 

If yes, is it also morally wrong to do the same thing to a baby cow?

 

If not, why not? Cows are just as sentient as dogs - they experience pain, they understand in a limited sense what is going on around them; quite frankly, they suffer.

 

If you agree it is wrong, how can you in good conscience eat veal?

 

(And I am vegan and boycott the dairy industry because among other problems it is the biggest source of veal cows.)

 

 

I would never eat a puppy. Puppies aren't as tasty and therefore not worth the effort. On the other hand, there are prominent people, even presidents who disagree with me.

[boyst]

Do you believe it is morally wrong to torture a puppy for a couple of years, and then kill and eat it?

 

If yes, is it also morally wrong to do the same thing to a baby cow?

 

If not, why not? Cows are just as sentient as dogs - they experience pain, they understand in a limited sense what is going on around them; quite frankly, they suffer.

 

If you agree it is wrong, how can you in good conscience eat veal?

 

(And I am vegan and boycott the dairy industry because among other problems it is the biggest source of veal cows.)

I believe it is totally wrong to speak so vaguely of something you do not know.

 

Have you been to a farm? Or did you just watch YouTube videos from PETA where a little calf stands quivering? Yeah, you know what is funny about that? That calf, if you know what you're looking at was just born and learning to walk. It was covered in goo from the momma, it was barely able to stand because it have never stood before. Yet, it looks so bad. I suppose it is bad to eat something that looks so cute when its a baby, but when you watch National Geographic? Do you cheer for the antelope when it gets away from the lion? Or do you think, well, that lion might have cubs that will starve tonight? I used to feel bad for the antelope, then I grew up, realized I did not support those who could not support themselves. Our society is just like this. The weakest are not meant to be sheltered and protected by the herd. Yet, we protect them. We cover them. We defend them. Those at the top are made out as the enemy since birth when Diseny corrupts with Bambi.

 

Of course, as you said, back to animals.

 

Do you realize a whole lot of stuff you just are in your own little world about...some fake world. Alright, probably not, and maybe that was a bit harsh.

 

Most fertilizers are made with cow bone. Those fertilizers can be approved for organic fertilizer. So, when someone puts that on your Whole Foods Vegan Soy Latte Cookie Ginger Snaps, whoops. Glue, adhesives, tape, rubber, many many other things have animal by products in them, even your computer once touched an animal. How do I know this? I do not, but I can bet that somewhere up the life cycle of at least one component an animal by product was used to get where you are; of course that is a stretch, but hey, if you are PETA then you better throw your computer out, because the animals may have suffered. If at the very least that big diesel truck that delivered it may have killed a bug. That bug did not deserve to die because you had to look at the interweb. Gosh, I am sounding as looney as you.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/foods-you-might-not-know-contain-animal-products

Always remember to check labels for key words such as “gelatin”, “rennet” and “enzyme”

 

That is just one, but you can Google for yourself and find which ever answers you want to believe. When you form your belief system on something you have not experienced for yourself you are opening yourself up for disappointment. I hope that the reality of how brutal this world is does not disappoint you, because it some times me.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

I believe it is totally wrong to speak so vaguely of something you do not know.

 

Have you been to a farm? Or did you just watch YouTube videos from PETA where a little calf stands quivering? Yeah, you know what is funny about that? That calf, if you know what you're looking at was just born and learning to walk. It was covered in goo from the momma, it was barely able to stand because it have never stood before. Yet, it looks so bad. I suppose it is bad to eat something that looks so cute when its a baby, but when you watch National Geographic? Do you cheer for the antelope when it gets away from the lion? Or do you think, well, that lion might have cubs that will starve tonight? I used to feel bad for the antelope, then I grew up, realized I did not support those who could not support themselves. Our society is just like this. The weakest are not meant to be sheltered and protected by the herd. Yet, we protect them. We cover them. We defend them. Those at the top are made out as the enemy since birth when Diseny corrupts with Bambi.

 

Of course, as you said, back to animals.

 

Do you realize a whole lot of stuff you just are in your own little world about...some fake world. Alright, probably not, and maybe that was a bit harsh.

 

Most fertilizers are made with cow bone. Those fertilizers can be approved for organic fertilizer. So, when someone puts that on your Whole Foods Vegan Soy Latte Cookie Ginger Snaps, whoops. Glue, adhesives, tape, rubber, many many other things have animal by products in them, even your computer once touched an animal. How do I know this? I do not, but I can bet that somewhere up the life cycle of at least one component an animal by product was used to get where you are; of course that is a stretch, but hey, if you are PETA then you better throw your computer out, because the animals may have suffered. If at the very least that big diesel truck that delivered it may have killed a bug. That bug did not deserve to die because you had to look at the interweb. Gosh, I am sounding as looney as you.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/foods-you-might-not-know-contain-animal-products

 

 

That is just one, but you can Google for yourself and find which ever answers you want to believe. When you form your belief system on something you have not experienced for yourself you are opening yourself up for disappointment. I hope that the reality of how brutal this world is does not disappoint you, because it some times me.

 

You're talking to the wrong guy. I've been to farms, yes. I have seen the results of undercover cruelty investigations firsthand. And let me tell you, it's absolutely horrifying. I am highly active in the space and volunteer hundreds of hours a year to the farm animal welfare cause. None of what I was referring to is "fake."

 

But you have a point about the prevalence of animal-based by-products in everyday products. All I can say about that is I do the best I can. I eat no meat, eggs, or dairy. I wear no leather. Do I unknowingly ingest bug parts in red food coloring? Probably. Does it make me a hypocrite? I hope not. Again, I am not a Jainist - I just do my best to cause as little suffering as I can. Maybe it's a matter of degree.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Coach Tuesday

[3rdnlng]

You're talking to the wrong guy. I've been to farms, yes. I have seen the results of undercover cruelty investigations firsthand. And let me tell you, it's absolutely horrifying. I am highly active in the space and volunteer hundreds of hours a year to the farm animal welfare cause. None of what I was referring to is "fake."

 

But you have a point about the prevalence of animal-based by-products in everyday products. All I can say about that is I do the best I can. I eat no meat, eggs, or dairy. I wear no leather. Do I unknowingly ingest bug parts in red food coloring? Probably. Does it make me a hypocrite? I hope not. Again, I am not a Jainist - I just do my best to cause as little suffering as I can. Maybe it's a matter of degree.

 

 

You could have fooled the rest of us here.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

 

 

You could have fooled the rest of us here.

 

Good one. If you don't want to be exposed to contrary opinions, you really shouldn't be here. Maybe you should join the Talban - they love shooting stuff, and don't tolerate dissent, either. You'd fit right in.

[3rdnlng]

Good one. If you don't want to be exposed to contrary opinions, you really shouldn't be here. Maybe you should join the Talban - they love shooting stuff, and don't tolerate dissent, either. You'd fit right in.

 

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Your fake indignation and condescending attitude is rather telling. You're no more a libertarian than Obama. Numerous people have already seen right through your little game.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

 

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Your fake indignation and condescending attitude is rather telling. You're no more a libertarian than Obama. Numerous people have already seen right through your little game.

 

I suppose next you'll ask to see my birth certificate? I don't care if you think I am a libertarian or not. I doubt you even know what the concept means. You are obviously the type of person who lacks the capacity for independent thought and would rather be spoonfed your opinions by the Limbaughs and Becks.

[3rdnlng]

I suppose next you'll ask to see my birth certificate? I don't care if you think I am a libertarian or not. I doubt you even know what the concept means. You are obviously the type of person who lacks the capacity for independent thought and would rather be spoonfed your opinions by the Limbaughs and Becks.

 

See, I disagree with you and the little facade you've put out there, and now I lack independent thought? Rush & Glenn are now my Senseis? You've got fake written all over you. You're a whiney little liberal pretending to be something else. I can guarantee you that I'm not the only one that has realized it here. A libertarian who wants to police the world. Ha!

[JPPT1974]

Seems hard to be a farmer these days. Not like it used to be.

[boyst]

You're talking to the wrong guy. I've been to farms, yes. I have seen the results of undercover cruelty investigations firsthand. And let me tell you, it's absolutely horrifying. I am highly active in the space and volunteer hundreds of hours a year to the farm animal welfare cause. None of what I was referring to is "fake."

 

But you have a point about the prevalence of animal-based by-products in everyday products. All I can say about that is I do the best I can. I eat no meat, eggs, or dairy. I wear no leather. Do I unknowingly ingest bug parts in red food coloring? Probably. Does it make me a hypocrite? I hope not. Again, I am not a Jainist - I just do my best to cause as little suffering as I can. Maybe it's a matter of degree.

I could go to any number of places and film a few bad eggs doing a piss poor job. Fast food workers not washing their hands and picking their nose. Grocery store workers not cleaning equipment. Cops writing bad tickets or using their power inappropriately. I have seen bad things, too. I have seen them in more then the animal world. I have seen migrant workers in horrifying conditions picking peas that I know first hand go to Trader Joes. I have seen things I will not speak of here, things that I choose not to speak of because I cannot put such powerful statements out there about entities that are thousands of time bigger then me. Of course, I do not need to tell you. You know that just because you are buying food from Harris Teeter that said product of the USA doesn't mean it is... that just because it says its organic, grassfed, or all natural doesn't mean it is, containing no animal by products or transfats means nothing. Yeah, you probably know more then I do... (And, by all means, you're welcome to think whatever you want, eat whatever you want, do whatever you want - just don't you dare judge me, my practices, my lifestyle or anything else I do because it does not impact you in any way, shape or form - I'm a bloody libertarian, aren't you?)

 

I sure as hell hope your voluntary efforts to help animal welfare cause on farms is consisting of you playing that Facebook farming game because I do not want to imagine you on any type of farm. It is "activists" like you that hate humanity yet spew the rights propaganda you hear from others. That rights should be protected, that free speech is important, but you better agree with my enlightened thoughts or you just don't get it. I won't preach any more, but will share a few more things.

 

My GF in response to your viewpoint on "baby cows" which she said are actually called calves... but anyway, they grow up, "they're dumb and they taste good."

 

My response, I weep for what people like you do for our country.

 

Edit: I would hate to not be able to eat bacon for breakfast (I'd like to eat it for lunch and supper, too). Or a steak for supper. Or a good buffalo wing. Hmm. I am hungry. I am going to go kill me a baby calf for breakfast. Dibs on the cutest part.

Edited December 23, 2012 by jboyst62

[Coach Tuesday]

I could go to any number of places and film a few bad eggs doing a piss poor job. Fast food workers not washing their hands and picking their nose. Grocery store workers not cleaning equipment. Cops writing bad tickets or using their power inappropriately. I have seen bad things, too. I have seen them in more then the animal world. I have seen migrant workers in horrifying conditions picking peas that I know first hand go to Trader Joes. I have seen things I will not speak of here, things that I choose not to speak of because I cannot put such powerful statements out there about entities that are thousands of time bigger then me. Of course, I do not need to tell you. You know that just because you are buying food from Harris Teeter that said product of the USA doesn't mean it is... that just because it says its organic, grassfed, or all natural doesn't mean it is, containing no animal by products or transfats means nothing. Yeah, you probably know more then I do... (And, by all means, you're welcome to think whatever you want, eat whatever you want, do whatever you want - just don't you dare judge me, my practices, my lifestyle or anything else I do because it does not impact you in any way, shape or form - I'm a bloody libertarian, aren't you?)

 

I sure as hell hope your voluntary efforts to help animal welfare cause on farms is consisting of you playing that Facebook farming game because I do not want to imagine you on any type of farm. It is "activists" like you that hate humanity yet spew the rights propaganda you hear from others. That rights should be protected, that free speech is important, but you better agree with my enlightened thoughts or you just don't get it. I won't preach any more, but will share a few more things.

 

My GF in response to your viewpoint on "baby cows" which she said are actually called calves... but anyway, they grow up, "they're dumb and they taste good."

 

My response, I weep for what people like you do for our country.

 

Edit: I would hate to not be able to eat bacon for breakfast (I'd like to eat it for lunch and supper, too). Or a steak for supper. Or a good buffalo wing. Hmm. I am hungry. I am going to go kill me a baby calf for breakfast. Dibs on the cutest part.

 

First of all, I suppose this is a bad time to tell you that I generally enjoy your football-related posts.

 

Second, I have no idea what you grow or raise on your farm - so I was not judging you. For all I know, you're a soybean farmer. Sorry if you took my opinions personally.

 

Third, you started this thread demanding taxpayer subsidies for the farm industry. Once you do that, you invite a public discussion about what goes on on farms, what value they add to society (and what costs they impose), etc. If you don't like that discussion, don't ask the American public to pay for private farming.

 

Fourth, putting aside my personal (and they're personal, I recognize) views on meat consumption, there are many reasons to oppose subsidies in general (be it for farms, banks, autos, wealthy, poor, etc.), and many reasons to take issue with farming practices, in particular (environmental, land efficiency, healthcare, etc.).

 

Fifth, you seem to be the one who is judging, condescending, and angry. You tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, but then delight in telling me that you and your girlfriend love killing and eating dumb animals. Well, congratulations - I'm glad you two have found each other. I'm also glad that you aren't representative of many family farmers whom I have met, many of whom have mixed emotions about the practice of raising livestock for food and who respect the animals who pay their livelihood more than "they're dumb and they taste good." Most animal welfare activists recognize that farmers have to be part of the solution, especially smaller, family-owned farms. You sound like you're not interested in animal welfare at all - that's certainly your right. But again, you invited this conversation by begging for a portion of my paycheck.

[boyst]

First of all, I suppose this is a bad time to tell you that I generally enjoy your football-related posts.

I look at each of the 3 main boards as separate entities. I am glad you enjoy my football posts, you are among the few who do. I am glad you are one of those who stick to worthwhile posting instead of bashing the organization in everything you say - just gets old. If EII posts something silly on PPP I do not hold it against him on the other board or in general really.. If Slash posts something just to polk fun at or get under the skin of someone on PPP I do not think less of him or carry it over to another thread like LPW, because he will never win that thread and I feel bad for him and his grilled toad. It's the internet...

Second, I have no idea what you grow or raise on your farm - so I was not judging you. For all I know, you're a soybean farmer. Sorry if you took my opinions personally.

It is not so much that I took it personal, it is that I took it and still take it to be completely ignorant and based off of half truths, tainted lines and fraudulent organizations. PETA may have a good purpose, HSUS may get some good things done, but to me they are all in the same lump - where the bad they do outweighs the good. As a personal note I put the Red Cross in this group and many other charities. I work a blue collar job, as well as farm. Many coworkers do not make very much, raising families on $10/hr or less as primary bread winners. Sure, they could have chose better in their life but when a few tragic events happened (house burned down, other such incidents) a few of them reached out to the Red Cross and were turned away because of varying reasons. Now, I believe in helping your fellow man, but not through the Gov. The Red Cross is supposed to help those in need, not get its face on TV and self promote across this country. To me, HSUS, PETA, GreenPeace, Whale Wars, etc spend too much time in front of the camera. They are ignorant. They see the bad when they could see so much better. Have I seen the video of a cow being thrown in a cesspool? Yes. Have I seen it in real life? No. The video originated from South America, IIRC. The United States may not be better but to blatantly go out and misrepresent what a vital industry to this world is incredibly bold - and in this case, I feel, wrong. It is like saying the US Military is doing the wrong thing and state information on their techniques being bad...oh, wait. We do that all the time. Nonetheless, I hope you get my point.

 

Third, you started this thread demanding taxpayer subsidies for the farm industry. Once you do that, you invite a public discussion about what goes on on farms, what value they add to society (and what costs they impose), etc. If you don't like that discussion, don't ask the American public to pay for private farming.

I was not demanding subsidies. I was saying that I cannot rationalize how Ford is more important to this country then food. What I cannot rationalize once more is how hand outs help anyone, bail outs are good for this country and why the US Gov should run programs like SNAP. The American public is not paying for private funding, this tiny fraction that reaches the farmer is not doing much at all. The American public is paying to support "Farming" by paying for SNAP, which is in my opinion a failed business model. We paid to support the automakers and the banks, which should have failed, as well. Our country can do some bass-ackward things...

 

Fourth, putting aside my personal (and they're personal, I recognize) views on meat consumption, there are many reasons to oppose subsidies in general (be it for farms, banks, autos, wealthy, poor, etc.), and many reasons to take issue with farming practices, in particular (environmental, land efficiency, healthcare, etc.).

Not really any way to disagree with this, but farming is becoming more and more high tech, with GPS units on tractors, livestock, and more. With radar on tractors, too. Every day we are finding out the old way might not have been the best. But, again, much of these subsidies are not going to the farmer.

 

Fifth, you seem to be the one who is judging, condescending, and angry. You tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, but then delight in telling me that you and your girlfriend love killing and eating dumb animals. Well, congratulations - I'm glad you two have found each other. I'm also glad that you aren't representative of many family farmers whom I have met, many of whom have mixed emotions about the practice of raising livestock for food and who respect the animals who pay their livelihood more than "they're dumb and they taste good." Most animal welfare activists recognize that farmers have to be part of the solution, especially smaller, family-owned farms. You sound like you're not interested in animal welfare at all - that's certainly your right. But again, you invited this conversation by begging for a portion of my paycheck.

I am not delighted to tell you that I eat dead animals. I am delighted that, again, in my opinion, I realize the place of my species. That we eat plants, animals, and whatever Pringles are. You draw the wrong conclusions that I do not respect my animals. I do not think any person could not feel anything seeing a new born calf minutes after birth, even helping it out...then drive it to its death a few years later. To have a cow die, one of your best, and be concerned enough about it to pull out your knife and cut it open to make sure there was no calf inside (bred cow died, somewhere along the way lost the calf - which I was unaware of). Its not easy to take away a life of an animal suffering when it is downed. To not only watch its bloody corpse lay limp but to load it and haul it away for proper treatment, a death in vain, a death you always wonder "what could I have done." When the most you could have done is take her to the sale a week before and hope someone got her harvested first. Cows get old, I have had trees fall on them and break their legs, old age, the bull ride them and fracture their pelvis, coyotes, foxes, slips, falls, virus'/bacteria and more. Death is not only a concern because of the bottom line but because it just doesn't feel good knowing that the purpose you are given - ensuring the life of that you are given by Allah/Budha/God/Al Bundy - is lost.

 

It's just a different switch when you know that animal is time for harvest.

[birdog1960]

farm subsidies are antithetical to libertarianism but so are most practical applications of the ideology.

 

many farmers, especially small farmers treat their animals humanely, realizing of course, that they are raising a food source.

 

small farmers and supporters of sustainable agriculture have a more consistent champion in dems than repubs.

 

growing food to feed machines is stupid and both parties are to blame for this travesty.

 

a well written book on the subjects of small farming and the many problems of agribusiness that might be particularly interesting to jboys: http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Vegetable-Miracle-Year-Food/dp/0060852569

[boyst]

small farmers and supporters of sustainable agriculture have a more consistent champion in dems than repubs.

 

It is amazing but even I remember when it was the other way around.

 

I will check out the book.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Sorry... I gotta ask this question! Bare w/me.

 

Hey Coach Tuesday... What is your whole take on this "Asian carp invasion?" You know, all that protein just staring right @ us... Literally jumping right into the boat! Heck, you don't even have to do anything except hit the throttle to 1500 rpms and reach out the net.

 

How's all your soy gonna get to market cheaply...

 

LoL.. I can't wait to hear this...

 

 

 

 

 

It is amazing but even I remember when it was the other way around.

 

I will check out the book.

 

Then came the Hoovervilles.

[birdog1960]

i'd like to give coach tuesday an example of the farming mindset that i recently witnessed. i live in a farming communiuty. we had a community picnic for halloween with a hayride. we rolled through the back 40 of one of our neighbors cattle farms. sitting next to me was an 8 year old girl from another farm. as we turned a corner we saw a nearly newborn calf with her mother standing in a hollow. everybody including me and my wife ooed and ahed about how cute it was. the little girl looked up at me and asked "wonder where it gets it's water"? a little further on, there sat a pond.

[ExiledInIllinois]

i'd like to give coach tuesday an example of the farming mindset that i recently witnessed. i live in a farming communiuty. we had a community picnic for halloween with a hayride. we rolled through the back 40 of one of our neighbors cattle farms. sitting next to me was an 8 year old girl from another farm. as we turned a corner we saw a nearly newborn calf with her mother standing in a hollow. everybody including me and my wife ooed and ahed about how cute it was. the little girl looked up at me and asked "wonder where it gets it's water"? a little further on, there sat a pond.

 

"DisneyLand of dairy"

 

I have been here, corporate farms like this place: Some that defy classification

 

http://www.fofarms.com/en/home

 

"Average of 80 calves are born a day"... Which can be viewed by visitors.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRy82i8e5Q

 

Kinda amazing, @ the dairy carousel... The cows naturally line up and enter on their own. We noticed that one even skipped the queue and went in for the second time around! It must be a relief to get the milk out?

Edited December 26, 2012 by ExiledInIllinois

[birdog1960]

i haven't noticed any miserable cows like coach describes. and i watch them a lot. they're really interesting, and they can run like hell when they want to. i guess the abuse might happen at the mega farms but the worst "abuse" i've watched is a young bull pestering multiple cows relentlessly and they don't seem to mind all that much. kinda reminds me of a pick up scene at a bar where the guy gets totally ignored. maybe they're treated different in the more remote pastures around me but i can't imagine that.

[ExiledInIllinois]

i haven't noticed any miserable cows like coach describes. and i watch them a lot. they're really interesting, and they can run like hell when they want to. i guess the abuse might happen at the mega farms but the worst "abuse" i've watched is a young bull pestering multiple cows relentlessly and they don't seem to mind all that much. kinda reminds me of a pick up scene at a bar where the guy gets totally ignored. maybe they're treated different in the more remote pastures around me but i can't imagine that.

 

Did you watch the Fair Oaks Farm thing I posted... Everything is under the eye of the visitor... Can't even step out into certain areas (for contamination purposes)... The tour vehicle goes right into the barn...

 

So true! They (cows) actually seemed very happy and orderly! Like I said, one cow actually went back around for another milking! LoL.

 

Not to highjack this thread... Stereotypes always abound! Kinda like the whole healthcare debate and how the conservatives slack the VA/single payer. I just got back from BFLO where my father has been (and still is) in the VA Hospital... I haven't been there in 40 years since he used to take me last... BUT man it is a whole different experience and better! They did everything in their power to keep him alive (after running into complications from elective vascular surgery, he is almost 80!)... But then again, I read somewhere that the VA in BFLO is one of the top one's in the country. My sister who is an RN in the private system was resigned to pulling the plug after the first hint of trouble! He is going to make a full recovery! She even commented: "Way better than BFLO General!" Wow.

 

To tie it into the farm thing... People want to see what they want to see... Oh, well...

Edited December 26, 2012 by ExiledInIllinois

[boyst]

To have about 4 gallons of milk sucked from your teet, you are going to be happy. That is almost 35 lbs. of milk. Well, since most of us do not have breasts, we can only imagine what that may be like but that is about the weight of your arm.

 

The cruelty you see in PETA like videos centers around smaller operations that handle livestock, usually sales markets and packaging houses where temporary employees do not really care. They make very little, they just don't care, and that is sad.

 

That farming video is great, I hope many continue to see it.