The Farming Cliff. A viewpoint from a farmer.

[boyst]

Not sure what you mean. Anyhow.

 

I am mostly a libertarian as well. Don't see how you can self-respectingly grovel for handouts because "everyone else is getting one." No one should, including Big Ag which is where most of that money goes. Cheap corn has created a public health crisis in this country, in addition to the many other problems caused or contributed to by factory farming (global warming, price inefficiencies, institutionalized torture of sentient animals, etc.).

We are a crazy country. We do not value the things we eat/put in our bodies and want things for free, but we care that other people cannot be happy with gay marriage and making sure obese people have handicap rights.

 

I am not advocating for free hand outs, because I know what those hand outs go to... and they go to education. Not all of it, in fact a very small part of it does. Maybe it is not enough, because the food pyramid is not adhered to and healthy lifestyles are not practiced. We, as people, have companies like Mt Dew telling us we need energy from their products, McDonalds giving us high sodium foods with fat counts that are beyond ridiculous, and so many other influences just bringing us down. If there was anything the government could do it would be to assist in the education of a proper diet and choosing proper food sources. This would cut down on a lot of unnecessary health care spending. We do not need to ban large fountain drinks like in NYC, we just need to teach the reality of what our food is and the best way to do this is let the farmer teach the consumer.

 

And, define to me what a factory farm is... is Hillshire Farms? Because if I could go to Hillshire farms, Johnsonville farms, or any of those places I would finally learn what a factory farm is...

Edited December 21, 2012 by jboyst62

[3rdnlng]

Not sure what you mean. Anyhow.

 

I am mostly a libertarian as well. Don't see how you can self-respectingly grovel for handouts because "everyone else is getting one." No one should, including Big Ag which is where most of that money goes. Cheap corn has created a public health crisis in this country, in addition to the many other problems caused or contributed to by factory farming (global warming, price inefficiencies, institutionalized torture of sentient animals, etc.).

 

Cheap corn? Are you serious? Corn is not cheap and its mandated use for ethanol has not only damaged machinery but more importantly led to more expensive food, including food shipped to third world countries where starvation is real. We are sitting on vast energy resources here in our own country and we are using food products to inefficiently replace them while causing misery in the world. It's so stupid I'm not even sure that it wasn't on purpose.

[boyst]

Cheap corn? Are you serious? Corn is not cheap and its mandated use for ethanol has not only damaged machinery but more importantly led to more expensive food, including food shipped to third world countries where starvation is real. We are sitting on vast energy resources here in our own country and we are using food products to inefficiently replace them while causing misery in the world. It's so stupid I'm not even sure that it wasn't on purpose.

And then there is that.

 

I wish I remember the source, but I learned that a South American country uses sugar beets much more efficiently then corn, something like two to three times the quality of fuel from corn ethanol. What is really sad is that corn as a whole is not even that healthy for you, it is on par with lettuce except that it has empty carbs.

[Jim in Anchorage]

And then there is that.

 

I wish I remember the source, but I learned that a South American country uses sugar beets much more efficiently then corn, something like two to three times the quality of fuel from corn ethanol. What is really sad is that corn as a whole is not even that healthy for you, it is on par with lettuce except that it has empty carbs.

Some disagree.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=90

[boyst]

Some disagree.

http://www.whfoods.c...odspice&dbid=90

I realize it is healthy for you, but % wise there are much better foods that have the same amount or more of nutrients...but, yeah, the beloved internet can prove any fool wrong, and make any fool correct. Corn is not bad, with proper eduction nothing is bad in moderation.

[GG]

We are a crazy country. We do not value the things we eat/put in our bodies and want things for free, but we care that other people cannot be happy with gay marriage and making sure obese people have handicap rights.

 

I am not advocating for free hand outs, because I know what those hand outs go to... and they go to education. Not all of it, in fact a very small part of it does. Maybe it is not enough, because the food pyramid is not adhered to and healthy lifestyles are not practiced. We, as people, have companies like Mt Dew telling us we need energy from their products, McDonalds giving us high sodium foods with fat counts that are beyond ridiculous, and so many other influences just bringing us down. If there was anything the government could do it would be to assist in the education of a proper diet and choosing proper food sources. This would cut down on a lot of unnecessary health care spending. We do not need to ban large fountain drinks like in NYC, we just need to teach the reality of what our food is and the best way to do this is let the farmer teach the consumer.

 

And, define to me what a factory farm is... is Hillshire Farms? Because if I could go to Hillshire farms, Johnsonville farms, or any of those places I would finally learn what a factory farm is...

 

Sure you guys are libertarians? Agri subsidies cause some of the biggest price distortions to the consumer because the Senate will not dare touch the breadbasket. That's why American corn and sugar are propped up against cheaper Brazilian imports and continue feeding us crap filled with high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar. Yes, sugar base ethanol is far more efficient, but not when you slap a punitive tarriff on it. Sugar soda is a tad healthier than HFCS soda, but the biggest thing is to avoid sugar soda in the first place. But if you guys were libertarians, you would know that government can whistle in the wind to force a change in people's behavior.

 

Much of it boils down to laziness. It's far too easy to grab the 12-pack of Coke or Pepsi on the end aisle, as opposed to grabbing the club soda bottle and then adding some fruit juice to it for flavor. Cut down on the sugar soda in your daily life and good things will follow.

Edited December 21, 2012 by GG

[Jim in Anchorage]

I realize it is healthy for you, but % wise there are much better foods that have the same amount or more of nutrients...but, yeah, the beloved internet can prove any fool wrong, and make any fool correct. Corn is not bad, with proper eduction nothing is bad in moderation.

What would you suggest over corn? Just eat nothing but grass fed beef all day long? Day after day?

[boyst]

Sure you guys are libertarians? Agri subsidies cause some of the biggest price distortions to the consumer because the Senate will not dare touch the breadbasket. That's why American corn and sugar are propped up against cheaper Brazilian imports and continue feeding us crap filled with high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar. Yes, sugar base ethanol is far more efficient, but not when you slap a punitive tarriff on it. Sugar soda is a tad healthier than HFCS soda, but the biggest thing is to avoid sugar soda in the first place. But if you guys were libertarians, you would know that government can whistle in the wind to force a change in people's behavior.

 

Much of it boils down to laziness. It's far too easy to grab the 12-pack of Coke or Pepsi on the end aisle, as opposed to grabbing the club soda bottle and then adding some fruit juice to it for flavor. Cut down on the sugar soda in your daily life and good things will follow.

Maybe I mispoke or represented my thoughts poorly, but I think the government has a responsibility to at least try and get things right. This jacking up taxes on sugar imports really started getting silly back in the early 2000's. They need to stop this taxing of sugar, cut off funding for ethanol garbage, and rewrite all of this junk about what is worthwhile spending. It is much better to spend money on education of sustainable agriculture and proper nutrition. As an outcome of this interest in healthier eating should occur, causing more farmers to revert to smaller operations based upon cost share agriculture, community gardens and things similar. If you give a farmer a reason to plant a variety of vegetables instead of 4,000 acres of corn then he will do it - but only because the money it will bring. (there is a reason everyone planted soybeans this year!)

 

However, you can also argue against what I do. PETA sure does, many do. Livestock farming can be thought of as very inefficient. It takes two years and 3 acres to raise 1 animal that will yield enough beef to feed 1 family of 4 for 1 year. The other factors, tending to land, fencing, off season feeding, etc also play a role. Farming is tough (says the guy who is about to put up .4 miles of 5 strand fencing the next 4 days).

 

If democracy worked like it should, if this country was more logical, it would cut off almost all federal funding. It would defend me, it would give me roads and it would stay out of my life. They sure as would not want to invest in a :censored: high speed rail system though my farm. Citizens could each get their own military assault riffle if they wanted, if they needed something they could go to the Red Cross (who'd get a big kick in the ass to fix their Ponzi pocket lining schemes) or other organizations. Laws would be from the communities largely with states determining to an extent which of those communities can govern themselves. Citizens with a problem that homosexuals cannot marry in NC would be allowed to move to California. Californians with any sense would leave the state or just over throw their government. Yeah, trust me, I am a Libertarian... I just see this country for the f' up it is and see very little hope of it changing.

 

What would you suggest over corn? Just eat nothing but grass fed beef all day long? Day after day?

Funny, but see whomever suggest the Paleo Diet. It is extremely logical and healthy. Honest answer.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Funny, but see whomever suggest the Paleo Diet. It is extremely logical and healthy. Honest answer.

Yes I am sure caveman lived long and healthy lives

[Koko78]

Forward!

 

So who owns the chickens? And what happens if you hit them with a hammer

 

The person who strikes the chickens does not own that hammer. The worker who created it does. Therefore the person who logged the tree to make the handle should go to prison for destroying someone's chicken.

[/dev/null]

Yes I am sure caveman lived long and healthy lives

Cavemen's lives were much shorter but can you attribute that to diet or other factors that we are not as vulnerable to in the modern age, like dying from the flue or an infected wound?

 

And, define to me what a factory farm is

 

Ask Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_farming

 

You're a Carolina boy so I doubt you see this on the same scale as if you were in the breadbasket.

 

PPP has had it's share of discussions of the Estate Tax. And IIRC you chimed in on how that affects family farms such as yours. So what happens when the kids can't pay the Estate Tax on Mom and Pop's family farm? Who do you think ends up buying the land? Your friends down the street or ConAgra?

[boyst]

Cavemen's lives were much shorter but can you attribute that to diet or other factors that we are not as vulnerable to in the modern age, like dying from the flue or an infected wound?

 

 

 

Ask Wiki

http://en.wikipedia....Factory_farming

 

You're a Carolina boy so I doubt you see this on the same scale as if you were in the breadbasket.

 

PPP has had it's share of discussions of the Estate Tax. And IIRC you chimed in on how that affects family farms such as yours. So what happens when the kids can't pay the Estate Tax on Mom and Pop's family farm? Who do you think ends up buying the land? Your friends down the street or ConAgra?

Will work on Factory Farming when I have more time. Read that twice. I am annoyed enough it is Wikipedia. I do not think I can touch this, but I will attempt, though I suck at this type of thing.

 

Every farm uses pesticides and dewormers and such. Without it cattle get pinkeye and go blind, get IBR, BVR, and other diseases. We have to immunize, and even as all natural beef you can do this. So, there is that. All farms use antibiotics to help their livestock. And the growth hormones are seldom used and when they are used it is not like believed.

 

The ethical debate on factory farming is looking at the burden of the farmer. Having to produce enough food for the entire world in the confines and restrictions of that very world. Where land costs are sky rocketing, where fuel prices climb every day, where the price of anything has outpaced the income of most every household, including farmers. As anyone with a business sense knows the last one to see an increase in what profits are made, the farmer is at the bottom of the totem pole. These factory farms people speak of are diversified operations and cooperative organizations that supply wholesales like BPA, Smithfield, etc. The small farmer can afford to take his cows to his local packager because this customers appreciate the product. Larger scale packaging houses are very costly, and even the smallest ones do not make a great profit. Factory Farming is a mass media headline and hippy d-bags who do not appreciate the world in which we live. There is no reason anyone should believe the statements of PETA, Greenpeace, HSUS, or such without checking them. Those entities do not believe in sustainable futures in food.

 

Polluting the environment is a great part. because as an organic farm you can raise unorganic chickens and use their litter as fertilizer. Their litter is full o bacteria not designed to be ingested by animals, such as salmonella and e.coli. There is no perfectly clean way to produce enough food for this country at the rate in which it is growing and the rate in which it is choosing its food source. It does not make it right, though. I will try to bring more u about this later.

 

I have to start a fence I have been delaying becuse I hate wind.

 

and ConAgra would not touch land in NC, most of it is not that valuable for row crops. Most of the land is poor quality

[/dev/null]

I have to start a fence I have been delaying becuse I hate wind.

 

and ConAgra would not touch land in NC, most of it is not that valuable for row crops. Most of the land is poor quality

 

I was using ConAgra as an example. I have little doubt that some large agribusiness buys up farm land in Carolina. But if the land isn't good enough for farming, some real estate developer would buy it

[boyst]

I was using ConAgra as an example. I have little doubt that some large agribusiness buys up farm land in Carolina. But if the land isn't good enough for farming, some real estate developer would buy it

They are. Charlotte/Mecklenberg County is 96% capacity, with it becoming 98% over the next three years. I do not know if it works on Google Earth, but I have seen growth maps showing development across the state and it is on a staggering pace. Baby boomers headed South a long time ago and their children are now staying in the South.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

Will work on Factory Farming when I have more time. Read that twice. I am annoyed enough it is Wikipedia. I do not think I can touch this, but I will attempt, though I suck at this type of thing.

 

Every farm uses pesticides and dewormers and such. Without it cattle get pinkeye and go blind, get IBR, BVR, and other diseases. We have to immunize, and even as all natural beef you can do this. So, there is that. All farms use antibiotics to help their livestock. And the growth hormones are seldom used and when they are used it is not like believed.

 

The ethical debate on factory farming is looking at the burden of the farmer. Having to produce enough food for the entire world in the confines and restrictions of that very world. Where land costs are sky rocketing, where fuel prices climb every day, where the price of anything has outpaced the income of most every household, including farmers. As anyone with a business sense knows the last one to see an increase in what profits are made, the farmer is at the bottom of the totem pole. These factory farms people speak of are diversified operations and cooperative organizations that supply wholesales like BPA, Smithfield, etc. The small farmer can afford to take his cows to his local packager because this customers appreciate the product. Larger scale packaging houses are very costly, and even the smallest ones do not make a great profit. Factory Farming is a mass media headline and hippy d-bags who do not appreciate the world in which we live. There is no reason anyone should believe the statements of PETA, Greenpeace, HSUS, or such without checking them. Those entities do not believe in sustainable futures in food.

 

Polluting the environment is a great part. because as an organic farm you can raise unorganic chickens and use their litter as fertilizer. Their litter is full o bacteria not designed to be ingested by animals, such as salmonella and e.coli. There is no perfectly clean way to produce enough food for this country at the rate in which it is growing and the rate in which it is choosing its food source. It does not make it right, though. I will try to bring more u about this later.

 

I have to start a fence I have been delaying becuse I hate wind.

 

and ConAgra would not touch land in NC, most of it is not that valuable for row crops. Most of the land is poor quality

 

Excuse me. PETA has no problem with you producing soy beans, or other sustainable crops. Livestock is the problem. It's also morally wrong, in my opinion, to de-beak sentient beings with hot scissors, to confine livestock in gestation crates, to leave downed pigs and cows to die in pits of feces, etc. Also livestock rape the environment and contribute to starvation and global warming.

 

PETA will shut up if you focus on plants.

[boyst]

Excuse me. PETA has no problem with you producing soy beans, or other sustainable crops. Livestock is the problem. It's also morally wrong, in my opinion, to de-beak sentient beings with hot scissors, to confine livestock in gestation crates, to leave downed pigs and cows to die in pits of feces, etc. Also livestock rape the environment and contribute to starvation and global warming.

 

PETA will shut up if you focus on plants.

umadbro?

[3rdnlng]

Excuse me. PETA has no problem with you producing soy beans, or other sustainable crops. Livestock is the problem. It's also morally wrong, in my opinion, to de-beak sentient beings with hot scissors, to confine livestock in gestation crates, to leave downed pigs and cows to die in pits of feces, etc. Also livestock rape the environment and contribute to starvation and global warming.

 

PETA will shut up if you focus on plants.

 

Coach Tuesday, the ultimate Libertarian. What a fake.

[/dev/null]

Coach Tuesday, the ultimate Libertarian. What a fake.

 

A Libertarian would support Tuesday's right to voice his support for PETA. PETA doesn't necessarily lie. Vegan diets are more healthy and there are inhumane scientific tests performed against animals, and animal butchery is brutal.

 

A Libertarian would also support my right to eat dead animals. I find them quite tasty

[Jim in Anchorage]

Excuse me. PETA has no problem with you producing soy beans, or other sustainable crops. Livestock is the problem. It's also morally wrong, in my opinion, to de-beak sentient beings with hot scissors, to confine livestock in gestation crates, to leave downed pigs and cows to die in pits of feces, etc. Also livestock rape the environment and contribute to starvation and global warming.

 

PETA will shut up if you focus on plants.

Does anyone besides me think this coach guy is a off the chart screwball?

[Coach Tuesday]

Does anyone besides me think this coach guy is a off the chart screwball?

 

I do. But not for the reasons you do.

 

Coach Tuesday, the ultimate Libertarian. What a fake.

 

I have met many libertarian Christians who are against the killing of animals for food, and even more who don't have a problem with eating animals but are against the institutionalized torture of animals that occurs on most factory farms. And just because I don't think something should be against the law, it does not mean I don't think it is morally wrong. I don't believe that laws should define our moral obligations. People should be free to make most choices for themselves. Having said that, I can see the argument (the libertarian argument) for making meat production against the law. My view (and the basis of my libertarianism) is that all sentient beings have the right to enjoy life with minimal interference from, and certainly without being tortured or killed by, other sentient beings. That is why I am anti-gun, vegan, and anti-tax, anti big government, anti-socialized medicine, etc.

 

Back to animals, let me ask it this way:

 

Do you believe it is morally wrong to torture a puppy for a couple of years, and then kill and eat it?

 

If yes, is it also morally wrong to do the same thing to a baby cow?

 

If not, why not? Cows are just as sentient as dogs - they experience pain, they understand in a limited sense what is going on around them; quite frankly, they suffer.

 

If you agree it is wrong, how can you in good conscience eat veal?

 

(And I am vegan and boycott the dairy industry because among other problems it is the biggest source of veal cows.)

Edited December 22, 2012 by Coach Tuesday