whateverdude Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Mass shootings are not a problem of guns it is a problem of people, namely the mentally ill. A generation or 2 ago the mentally ill who were deemed a danger to themselves and others were institutionalized, medicated and rehabilitated if possible and releases into society with heavy supervision. The more dangerous individuals were kept in the institutions. That changed with a liberal progressive movement that favored “mainstreaming” with outpatient services. That works for individuals with non-violent tendencies but not the potentially violent ones. What we need is a national conversation about the mentally ill and how to help them and to identify the potentially violent ones better. Unfortunately, both parties have cut funding to mental health providers over the last 25 years. Edited December 16, 2012 by whateverdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I cannot speak as to the rest of the country, but here in NY, they got rid of most of the mental health hospitals. Now we have doctors at the remaining mental health centers who refuse to do anything to help patients and just kick them out the door unless the patients actually say at that moment that they want to hurt themselves or others. When the mental health "professionals" are done ignoring people with serious MH needs, the brilliant solution then becomes put them in jail after they've hurt someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Yup. I was discussing the Newtown thing with some people at a party last night (we're about 30 miles away so people around here are very shaken up) and we talked about this exact issue. Every one of these shootings is done by a sad/angry, disconnected loner. Clearly there are a lot of mentally unstable people and some % of them have the capacity for extreme violence. We've created a society that unfortunately contributes to those people going so far off the deep end. Things that are different from a generation ago that exaserbate the problem include, --lack of opportunity in the job market to do anything other than menial labor --impact of endless violent images in our culture --insistance on putting every 'troubled' kid on drugs rather than forcing them to work through their teen issues and learning how to deal with real life --The removal of almost all forms of discipline/punishment for kids --The media culture that makes the perps famous, combined with our modern society's obsession with fame What to do about it? As you suggest, we need more focus on identifying and treating those with mental health issues. It might be a good idea to move that up on the priority list of government spending, say ahead of invading Iraq or adding millions to welfare rolls for the purpose of creating loyal voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whateverdude Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 Mental health professionals are on the front lines just like some of our soldiers are. Funding cuts are just the wrong thing to do if we want to solve these societal problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 It's expensive to insitutionalize, that's why we moved to CMHC, community mental health centers... It's also believe it was cruel, ineffective to lock people up who could live somewhat normal between group homes and outpatient service delivery... Mental health professionals are on the front lines just like some of our soldiers are. Funding cuts are just the wrong thing to do if we want to solve these societal problems. We can barely deliver Health care, let alone Behavioral/ Mental health services... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Snip from a ranting article on the subject, *Warning* blunt discussion and political views included (for those easily offended) Chris Rock Was Right (The article starts with the initial descriptions of the gunman used by the AP and ABC as “having a personality disorder” and “Obviously not well.”) In other words, Adam Lanza was nuts........Psycho, loony, bonkers, daft, zany, berserk and cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Advocates for the mentally ill discourage such colloquial terms as tending to stigmatize psychiatric patients. But we might ask whether stigma — and the consequent damage to the fragile self-esteem of kooks — is really worse than turning loose a homicidal schizo who kills 27 people. I say we might ask that, except that it’s politically incorrect to do so. We have been carefully taught that wackos are victims, and we’re not supposed to talk about the possibility that they might also be dangerous, lest we infringe the “rights” of murderous lunatics. To quote Dirty Harry, “Well, I’m all broken up over that man’s rights.” You’ll excuse me if I sound somewhat bitter about it, but this school shooting kind of spoiled my plans for the day. And also, some kids in Newtown, Connecticut, will miss the rest of their lives. Our culture has lost all sense of perspective, of reasonable balance, so that we are unable to make common-sense judgments about risks. Which is the greater danger: That a schizophrenic might have his feelings hurt, or that a schizophrenic might go off his meds and kill people? Common sense is quite nearly illegal nowadays and it’s certainly unfashionable in the Obama Age. So the usual liberal dingbats — including the ACLU types who assured us it was “a fearless, independent life style” for a crazy woman to defecate in public on the streets of Manahattan — are telling us we need more gun control. And I say, no, what we need is more kook control. But no member of Congress in either party would have the guts to introduce “The Dangerous Lunatic Incarceration Act of 2013,” which would put wackjobs like Adam Lanza some place where they couldn’t kill people. Chris Rock was right: “Whatever happened to ‘crazy’? . . . What? You can’t be crazy no more? Did we eliminate ‘crazy’ from the dictionary?” "F" word included: Edited December 16, 2012 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 It's expensive to insitutionalize, that's why we moved to CMHC, community mental health centers... It's also believe it was cruel, ineffective to lock people up who could live somewhat normal between group homes and outpatient service delivery... Then as a society we need to pick the poison - treat them under current means and recognize that some will fall through the cracks and shoot up a school. Can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 All too sadly we all know some of these people; maybe not people ready to pull a trigger, but people engaged in lead-up behaviors such as violence toward animals. Throughout the past, many do-gooders have just dreamed up a new label to differentiate the person from the group as a whole. We label, then discuss, but rarely do anything like notify a responsible person -- a parent, school official, community authority, etc. Then, when "it" happens, we're shocked, outraged and comment that, in hindsight, we saw it coming. It could be that we need to re-examine the line between individual rights and the rights of the group--given the changing world where news of violent acts is broadcast worldwide and serves, for some, as precipitating events for their own violent outbursts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 "I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness." . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Then as a society we need to pick the poison - treat them under current means and recognize that some will fall through the cracks and shoot up a school. Can't have it both ways. I see it as the price of freedom in regards to health info privacy, civil liberties and a land of weapons designed with lethality in mind. We don't like spending on healthcare, mental health care doesn't have a chance as far as I'm concerned. Even if you profiled the person most likely to commit this crime, what do you do with them??? Mandate meds? GPS track them? Publicly ostracize them??? lock them up for no crime other than being nuggets?? What if they don't want help??? If I am a sick !@#$ and. Want to kill, I find the nearest, easier high capacity killing machine because I want to go down big time.... It's lethal and easy.... Until we eliminate mentally illness or guns, shootings are going to continue.... Just hope it doesn't come to a locale near you. I don't know if there is a solution.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 it's about money just like universal health care is. more precisely, it's about allocation of resources. the laws are on the books to detain people deemed a risk to themselves or others they are being relatively infrequently used.. it's the funding that's not there. this has resulted in many worrisome cases being ignored, sometimes with terrible results. yet we pay billions for futile care at end of life because more powerful, influential people demand it. even if the will to adequately fund and prioritize mental heath resources was somehow summoned it would be many years before a truly effective system could be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 it's about money just like universal health care is. more precisely, it's about allocation of resources. the laws are on the books to detain people deemed a risk to themselves or others they are being relatively infrequently used.. it's the funding that's not there. this has resulted in many worrisome cases being ignored, sometimes with terrible results. yet we pay billions for futile care at end of life because more powerful, influential people demand it. even if the will to adequately fund and prioritize mental heath resources was somehow summoned it would be many years before a truly effective system could be built. In the age of cuts and deficits, probably not a great time for tackling the issue from a funding perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meathead Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 "I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness." . good article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 good article Thanks! Did you see the family of one of the deceased children? How they spoke out that they are not angry. That they feel so sorry for the family of the shooter... Wow... How many hee could handle it that way? I would like to think I could... I am not sure the rage and hate would not overcome me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meathead Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 yeah thats pretty incredibly compassionate. reminds me of that guy that killed those amish kids and the first thing they did was pray for him. now THATS some profound forgiveness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 yeah thats pretty incredibly compassionate. reminds me of that guy that killed those amish kids and the first thing they did was pray for him. now THATS some profound forgiveness I hear you meat! Goes back to "The Serenity Prayer" "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time; Enjoying one moment at a time; Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it; Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His Will; That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him Forever in the next. Amen." --Reinhold Niebuhr In loving memory of Fr Bertram Griffin -- 1932-2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 K. Sorry meazza... Forget about it... It just sounded weird how you worded it... Tom is right. In these tragedies, there is the inevitable discussion of how to prevent further acts of violence. From "gun control" to the ridiculous proposals from the op, it shouldn't lead to less freedom to those that suffer from mental illness because of the small percentage that actually commit violent crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tom is right. In these tragedies, there is the inevitable discussion of how to prevent further acts of violence. From "gun control" to the ridiculous proposals from the op, it shouldn't lead to less freedom to those that suffer from mental illness because of the small percentage that actually commit violent crimes. Fair enough. Honest question here... Mental illness, is that covered under the 14th's equal protection? I haven't looked it up... Has Buck v. Bell ever been overturned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Fair enough. Honest question here... Mental illness, is that covered under the 14th's equal protection? I haven't looked it up... Has Buck v. Bell ever been overturned? No idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Wow... Just looked it up... It has never been overturned... Yikes... No idea. You know what I am getting @? For the good and health of the state, can freedoms of the mentally ill be protected under the 14th. Interesting. Just think of the documented people being on meds... Wnat if they stop taking those meds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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