RkFast Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Who are you? It is you that does not understand. I understand it, never said or implied I didn't. Are you for real? Wow... Just wow... My God... You had to be conjoined w/Rich @ birth! I see the operation went terribly wrong! As long as I got the twig and berries and Im happy..... There are LOTS of people out there outright calling for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment and/or seek to devalue it with silly arguments like "it was meant for muskets only" or questioning its intent without ever doing a bit of research. So yeah...want to throw nonsensical absolutes? I can play that game, too. Thats the point. yeah they got me figgered out thats for sure all pathetic kidding aside, im referring to things like the teachings of contemporary sprituality versus the overemphasis on individuality that infects american culture. americans dont see it bc they are immersed in it, but its dysfunctional to be so completely fixated on total individuality. its essentially at the core of the american style and it has negative consequences bc its simply taken too far. there isnt the proper balance between the individual and the collective. you could say that places like china and japan have gone too far the other way, but at least those places have dramatically lower crime rates, which is relevant not surprisingly, this issue doesnt resonate with many americans - which is the point Are those Countries free of their problems? Japan less than onee hundred years ago was one of the most brutal, UNcivilized societies to ever walk the Earth. China's list of atrocities iss about six miles long. Ive heard people mention the UK. Yeah, they have a clean history. And Germany? Ask any Jew about those civilized Germans. Edited December 17, 2012 by RkFast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49er Fan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Anyone familiar with New York City's gun laws? In New York, if you get caught with a loaded firearm outside of your home, a conviction is a Class C violent felony and carries 3.5 - 15 years - and you do at least 80% of the jail time. Guns aren't banned in New York. But possession of a loaded weapon outside the home is criminal, and carries a huge penalty. NYC is the safest big city in the country. It's not even close. And for me, after living here for 6 years, it feels safe. I like the fact that most people I that encounter aren't carrying a gun. I like that, if some douchebag decides to pull a gun out in public, I can take action with the cops to have his dumb a$$ thrown in jail. I certainly don't want to see a fully armed populace of George Zimmermans walking around. Edited December 17, 2012 by 49er Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Anyone familiar with New York City's gun laws? In New York, if you get caught with a loaded firearm outside of your home, a conviction is a Class C violent felony and carries 3.5 - 15 years - and you do at least 80% of the jail time. Guns aren't banned in New York. But possession of a loaded weapon outside the home is criminal, and carries a huge penalty. NYC is the safest big city in the country. It's not even close. And for me, after living here for 6 years, it feels safe. I like the fact that most people I that encounter aren't carrying a gun. I like that, if some douchebag decides to pull a gun out in public, I can take action with the cops to have his dumb a$$ thrown in jail. I certainly don't want to see a fully armed populace of George Zimmermans walking around. Do you honestly believe that the gun laws is what's made NY safer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Do you honestly believe that the gun laws is what's made NY safer? I know you live in NYC...Ive spent my entire life here....Does 49er fan sound like a total mark or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49er Fan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Ha! Yeah I'm a regular Bernie Goetz Edited December 17, 2012 by 49er Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Do you honestly believe that the gun laws is what's made NY safer? Actually, Gerry, you're not quite right here. Police capitalizing on stricter gun laws (or simply enforcing the ones already on the books) certainly didn't t account for all of the decline, but it arguably played an important part. http://clcjbooks.rut...ecame_safe.html . Regardless, taking guns off of the street through policing has worked to an extent, at least in NY. Happy to send you a copy if you like. Just PM me your address. Edited December 17, 2012 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Anyone familiar with New York City's gun laws? In New York, if you get caught with a loaded firearm outside of your home, a conviction is a Class C violent felony and carries 3.5 - 15 years - and you do at least 80% of the jail time. Guns aren't banned in New York. But possession of a loaded weapon outside the home is criminal, and carries a huge penalty. NYC is the safest big city in the country. It's not even close. And for me, after living here for 6 years, it feels safe. I like the fact that most people I that encounter aren't carrying a gun. I like that, if some douchebag decides to pull a gun out in public, I can take action with the cops to have his dumb a$$ thrown in jail. I certainly don't want to see a fully armed populace of George Zimmermans walking around. Here's the thing: New York ranks 138'th in crime rate out of 188 US cities with a population of more than 100,000. That isn't good, at all. And those who would take out a gun? The police likely wouldn't be able to do anything at all to prevent a crime that was going to be commited. They come after the fact to mop up the blood and haul away the bodies. On the other hand, if you yourself were armed, you might be able to prevent a gun crime or murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49er Fan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 New York ranks 138'th in crime rate out of 188 US cities with a population of more than 100,000. That isn't good, at all. That's totally misleading. 100,000 people? That's like one neighborhood in Brooklyn. New York cannot be compared with cities with a minimum of 100,000 population. Try 1,000,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) That's totally misleading. 100,000 people? That's like one neighborhood in Brooklyn. New York cannot be compared with cities with a minimum of 100,000 population. Try 1,000,000. The huge hole in your argument...one the size of Texas...is that there are cities with STRICTER gun laws than NYC and with a much worse rate of gun violence and murder. NYC has ALWAYS had very very very strict gun laws, long before the city became....with all due respect....a "nice place" for transients like yourself. Edited December 17, 2012 by RkFast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49er Fan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 And those who would take out a gun? The police likely wouldn't be able to do anything at all to prevent a crime that was going to be commited. They come after the fact to mop up the blood and haul away the bodies. On the other hand, if you yourself were armed, you might be able to prevent a gun crime or murder. The deterrent to that is that NYC has a hell of a lot of cops and security cameras to enforce the law. Businesses almost never get robbed. I couldn't imagine someone even trying. I don't live in the Bronx and I don't find myself wandering the city between 4 and 5 AM very often, but I have never felt the need to have a gun where I live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 yeah they got me figgered out thats for sure all pathetic kidding aside, im referring to things like the teachings of contemporary sprituality versus the overemphasis on individuality that infects american culture. americans dont see it bc they are immersed in it, but its dysfunctional to be so completely fixated on total individuality. its essentially at the core of the american style and it has negative consequences bc its simply taken too far. there isnt the proper balance between the individual and the collective. you could say that places like china and japan have gone too far the other way, but at least those places have dramatically lower crime rates, which is relevant not surprisingly, this issue doesnt resonate with many americans - which is the point i agree completely. iu think there can be a happy medium and we aren't at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 If you can guarantee me that all guns will be removed from society, that none will be introduced by black markets in the future, that violent crime will cease to exist, and that those in positions of authority will never abuse that authority then I will gladly support a gun ban and peacefully surrender my firearms. This is the problem. You cannot legislate morality.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 we can better control ammo. you can legislate that. can we stop everyone from ever doing 150mph in their vette on the thruway? no...but does that mean we should make it into the nys autobahn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Here's the thing: New York ranks 138'th in crime rate out of 188 US cities with a population of more than 100,000. That isn't good, at all. And those who would take out a gun? The police likely wouldn't be able to do anything at all to prevent a crime that was going to be commited. They come after the fact to mop up the blood and haul away the bodies. On the other hand, if you yourself were armed, you might be able to prevent a gun crime or murder. ?? - where is your data from? NYC is one of the safest cities (100,000+) in the US by practically every measure. The murder total might well drop below 400 this year, btw. There have been 385 through 12/15. There were 485 last year, and last year was a good year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 we can better control ammo. you can legislate that. can we stop everyone from ever doing 150mph in their vette on the thruway? no...but does that mean we should make it into the nys autobahn? Different issue....I was merely pointing out the core philosophical problem. You, nor I, nor anyone...can legislate morality. As you said....government can define a law....but it doesn't stop people from breaking it. Legislation for, or against guns, doesn't change the moral compass of the individual. It 'might' make it harder to acquire a gun/ammo but that seems to be the bigger debate here. Also...driving a speeding car on a public highway is a bit different than regulating/legislating against a back alley illegal arms sale...but you're overall point is noted. I've never owned a gun or hunted so I have 'no dog' in this race. I certainly want our government to take steps to ensure our safety as best they can. Interestingly, I got into this discussion with a Dem leaning friend of mine yesterday and he quoted a lot of what I've seen here about "protecting the masses over the rights of the individual." I agreed with him and then asked him a few questions about how he viewed the Patriot act. He got very quiet and didn't really give me a concrete answer. I'm not saying this to be snarky at all..... I just find it interesting how people (of both parties) view the two issues juxtaposed. Individual rights vs collective safety. It's a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/557.html Chicago has some pretty strict gun laws, but has a violent death rate that tops Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Different issue....I was merely pointing out the core philosophical problem. You, nor I, nor anyone...can legislate morality. As you said....government can define a law....but it doesn't stop people from breaking it. Legislation for, or against guns, doesn't change the moral compass of the individual. It 'might' make it harder to acquire a gun/ammo but that seems to be the bigger debate here. Also...driving a speeding car on a public highway is a bit different than regulating/legislating against a back alley illegal arms sale...but you're overall point is noted. I've never owned a gun or hunted so I have 'no dog' in this race. I certainly want our government to take steps to ensure our safety as best they can. Interestingly, I got into this discussion with a Dem leaning friend of mine yesterday and he quoted a lot of what I've seen here about "protecting the masses over the rights of the individual." I agreed with him and then asked him a few questions about how he viewed the Patriot act. He got very quiet and didn't really give me a concrete answer. I'm not saying this to be snarky at all..... I just find it interesting how people (of both parties) view the two issues juxtaposed. Individual rights vs collective safety. It's a challenge. i have a gun. a pump shotgun that i feel is the best all around firearm you can own. it serves for protection, hunting, killing varmints and even target shooting (skeet and trap can be quite challenging). it would be damn near impossible however to do the damage done in connecticut with a pump shotgun. so why the bitter fight over semi automatic weapons? why do ordinary people need them if not for their belief that someday they might have to fight against the gov't? we shouldn't allow legislation based on that fear.and i think bloomberg is correct that the nra has no where near the power they appear to. the candidates they backed in the most recent elections didn't fare so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 i have a gun. a pump shotgun that i feel is the best all around firearm you can own. it serves for protection, hunting, killing varmints and even target shooting (skeet and trap can be quite challenging). it would be damn near impossible however to do the damage done in connecticut with a pump shotgun. so why the bitter fight over semi automatic weapons? why do ordinary people need them if not for their belief that someday they might have to fight against the gov't? we shouldn't allow legislation based on that fear.and i think bloomberg is correct that the nra has no where near the power they appear to. the candidates they backed in the most recent elections didn't fare so well. I'm not an NRA guy but I do respect the rights of individuals, like yourself, to own a gun. I wouldn't, however, engage in or support the "bitter" fight in favor of semi-automatic weapons. I see no place for them outside of the military and I have no issue with Clinton's prior ban on assault weapons. It's reasonable to consider these as WMD's in my opinion. Look no further than this past Friday as a sad example of that potential. As I said....I want our government to do 'what they can' and what is reasonable. Sadly....It still does not prevent a loon from modifying a 'legal' gun and going off. Nor does it stop them from acquiring an illegal unmodified one and doing the same. Morality cannot be mandated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 no, you can't mandate anything fully. even in prison, people break the law. so, to take my autobahn analogy a step further, should we do away with prisons? no, we should try to make them better. unfortunately, on the issue of guns, there are many people who will fight to their last breaths for assault weapons and such. i dare say there are posters here who are staunch supporters. and they need to be either ignored or convinced. i'd bet on ignoring being the only good option. bloomberg talked about restrictions on clip size...makes perfect sense. this isn't rocket science. will there be ways to circumvent? sure, but it can be made quite difficult. right now, we aren't even doing the obvious stuff. there's plenty of room for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 yeah they got me figgered out thats for sure all pathetic kidding aside, im referring to things like the teachings of contemporary sprituality versus the overemphasis on individuality that infects american culture. americans dont see it bc they are immersed in it, but its dysfunctional to be so completely fixated on total individuality. its essentially at the core of the american style and it has negative consequences bc its simply taken too far. there isnt the proper balance between the individual and the collective. you could say that places like china and japan have gone too far the other way, but at least those places have dramatically lower crime rates, which is relevant not surprisingly, this issue doesnt resonate with many americans - which is the point America is founded on the notion of self-interest.... freedom to practice what I believe, work where I want, amass as much as I can... I think that is where alot of the static in the country some from with regards to social programs, the notion of "why do I have to pay if I am not using it??" But how do you achieve the goal of collectivism? Americans are generally allergic to collectivism via Government... you have to wonder if things like suburban sprawl led to a more individuallitics feeling in this country. Its a interesting topis nonetheless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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