birdog1960 Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 we need to look at what it is that produces people like this. i submit that it has much to do with our fiercely darwinian, materialistic, narcissistic, self absorbed society. if we care so little about others, it's only a couple of slippery steps down to hating them or even killing them. it's time to accept that our value system needs changing...it will take several generations but it's possible.
Brandon Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Think of how safe the kids will be! Certainly this will reduce shootings, will it not? Just a matter of if you value your child's safety. Sorry. It's taken just about all I've had not to yell at the people I've heard using that phrase. I know it's a tough time but that doesn't mean it's a fair or reasonable argument. In fact I'd say using that takes away from the discussion on how to increase safety, if anything, I totally understand that. I'm not saying that my solution is necessarily the correct one. I'm just saying that its becoming apparent that the security measures we have in place haven't been that effective.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 we need to look at what it is that produces people like this. i submit that it has much to do with our fiercely darwinian, materialistic, narcissistic, self absorbed society. if we care so little about others, it's only a couple of slippery steps down to hating them or even killing them. it's time to accept that our value system needs changing...it will take several generations but it's possible. China is the opposite of what you describe, culturally - yet they have a years-long epidemic of maniacs stabbing schoolchildren. The problem ain't capitalism, sorry.
UConn James Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 we need to look at what it is that produces people like this. i submit that it has much to do with our fiercely darwinian, materialistic, narcissistic, self absorbed society. if we care so little about others, it's only a couple of slippery steps down to hating them or even killing them. it's time to accept that our value system needs changing...it will take several generations but it's possible. Where do you think abortion falls in that? 'If this emerging life is too much for you to handle, if you can't afford it, if it's a cramp to your lifestyle... just snuff it out. Problem solved!' Now, I actually support many abortion rights and the stare juris of Roe, but you CANNOT remove it with a clean break from the degradation of society's views on the preciousness and value of life. Maybe especially in this case, of innocent life that did nothing wrong, it was simply viewed by an older person with the means as so detestable/inconvenient/etc. that it should be gotten rid of. From what little we know, he hasbeen described by a couple of people who knew him as a First-Person-Shooter-Videogame player. Personally, I think if we were to dial back those games to the Nth degree in availability and content, as well as encourage fewer murder-death-kill teevee shows (NCIS: Alabama, CSI: Waterloo, Law&Order: 7 Spinoffs, Criminal Minds, Bones and WAYYYY too many more to name here) with ever more graphic content, it would go some of the way toward ending the desensitization bent. Monkey see, monkey do. And if programmers don't want to do this voluntarily, then by other means, including broadcast licenses, First Amendment be damned. This stuff is obscenity much moreso than porn that gets all the focus in this section of law.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Have they come out with a possible motive yet? If the mother was a teacher there, why was she home during the school day? Why were guns registered to her? Not just a gun? But what looks like a mini-arsenal, with ammo clips and all (or else the shooter could have obtained the ammo). Any questions on if it was here class he singled out? Any friction outside his presumed mental problems? Maybe it it is still too early... BUT @ least in CO... There was a hint of something causing the mental/emotional breakdown. This situation is so vague.
B-Man Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 That's true EiI. When you search the net for motive in this horrible shooting, you get both headlines for; "police have good evidence for motive" and also "police have NO motive in shooting" posted by major news services just minutes apart. I assume we will know eventually, but it is kind of odd. .
UConn James Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Evidently, his mother was NOT a teacher there. There is some speculation that was either a substitute or a sometimes-volunteer. The latest I read was the shooter had an agument with four teachers/staffers on Wed or Thursday, when he went to the school. He returned Friday and killed three of those four (the other had called in sick and was home yesterday), apparently primarily targeting them. What the nature of that argument was has not yet been detailed. In retrospect, if someone who doesn't belong there/has no reason to be there comes onto school grounds and gets in a tiff with staff, maybe it would have been best to get police involved and check it out. Not assigning blame here, just to be clear, but this was a warning sign and may be an area of stress going forward. If you have no business at a school, GTFO.
NoSaint Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Evidently, his mother was NOT a teacher there. There is some speculation that was either a substitute or a sometimes-volunteer. The latest I read was the shooter had an agument with four teachers/staffers on Wed or Thursday, when he went to the school. He returned Friday and killed three of those four (the other had called in sick and was home yesterday), apparently primarily targeting them. What the nature of that argument was has not yet been detailed. In retrospect, if someone who doesn't belong there/has no reason to be there comes onto school grounds and gets in a tiff with staff, maybe it would have been best to get police involved and check it out. Not assigning blame here, just to be clear, but this was a warning sign and may be an area of stress going forward. If you have no business at a school, GTFO. Yowza. First I heard all that. And, Yea, that's typically a pretty standard policy at schools for obvious reasons.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Evidently, his mother was NOT a teacher there. There is some speculation that was either a substitute or a sometimes-volunteer. The latest I read was the shooter had an agument with four teachers/staffers on Wed or Thursday, when he went to the school. He returned Friday and killed three of those four (the other had called in sick and was home yesterday), apparently primarily targeting them. What the nature of that argument was has not yet been detailed. In retrospect, if someone who doesn't belong there/has no reason to be there comes onto school grounds and gets in a tiff with staff, maybe it would have been best to get police involved and check it out. Not assigning blame here, just to be clear, but this was a warning sign and may be an area of stress going forward. If you have no business at a school, GTFO. Like the NoSaint said above... Yikes! Holy double red-flag Batman! I know you said his mother may have been affiliated w/the school... But again... YIKES and creepy that HE is interacting w/staff... Yowza. First I heard all that. And, Yea, that's typically a pretty standard policy at schools for obvious reasons. Don't read too much in what I am gonna say. It was a very affluent area. One person I read was quoted as saying: "This does not happen in Newton." Well, guess what... It just did AND it usually does... That is the crime happens everywhere... But it is the sleepy areas that may let their guard down first... Just saying...
3rdnlng Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Like the NoSaint said above... Yikes! Holy double red-flag Batman! I know you said his mother may have been affiliated w/the school... But again... YIKES and creepy that HE is interacting w/staff... Don't read too much in what I am gonna say. It was a very affluent area. One person I read was quoted as saying: "This does not happen in Newton." Well, guess what... It just did AND it usually does... That is the crime happens everywhere... But it is the sleepy areas that may let their guard down first... Just saying... Versus Chicago, that is more dangerous than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. What's Chicago's laws regarding firearms?
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Versus Chicago, that is more dangerous than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. What's Chicago's laws regarding firearms? Not because of the laws... I am actually safer where I am (Chicago and the far south working class suburbs) than I am in the more affluent ChicagoLand areas... Really... Amazes me what goes on in those creepy, sleepy suburbs... I am not totally passing judgement... TOTALLY, I said... But, IMO, people are more "predictable" in certain areas than others... Some areas, people go to work @ the same time, get up @ the same time and go to sleep @ the same times... I feel safer in areas where things are a little less predictable. Heck... I am gonna be prowling around my castle @ 2300 hours tonight getting ready to head to work... Just saying, mix it up a little bit. My guess, and not really in this school situation, is that some of these sleepy areas are easier targets because of people's habits and predictable nature... Just my .02 cents...
UConn James Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/15/children-and-adults-gunned-down-in-connecticut-school-massacre/ It's in the 3:06 p.m. update. Just going to say that I found out off the record just how bad this was going to be ("over 20 dead" someone told me) a little over an hour before the media got it and were still only saying the gunman was dead. Still didn't prepare me one iota for the shock. I feel 100 years old.
UConn James Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Not because of the laws... I am actually safer where I am (Chicago and the far south working class suburbs) than I am in the more affluent ChicagoLand areas... Really... Amazes me what goes on in those creepy, sleepy suburbs... I am not totally passing judgement... TOTALLY, I said... But, IMO, people are more "predictable" in certain areas than others... Some areas, people go to work @ the same time, get up @ the same time and go to sleep @ the same times... I feel safer in areas where things are a little less predictable. Heck... I am gonna be prowling around my castle @ 2300 hours tonight getting ready to head to work... Just saying, mix it up a little bit. My guess, and not really in this school situation, is that some of these sleepy areas are easier targets because of people's habits and predictable nature... Just my .02 cents... I get what you're saying about predictability and habits... but that's an extremely marginal factor in a case where there's a determined individual bent on destruction and who doesn't care a wot about consequences b/c he's preparing to die anyway, and is simply seeking personal vengeance and then whatever he can get to try to rack up a high score. There is no way that routines and/or changing them up would have made a difference here. He had deadly weapons combined with psychotic bent, and they hid behind doors and under desks. Feel however you want in whatever way helps you sleep. But if someone has you as a target for whatever reason and you have no method of security other than the police with 10 minute response times... you're on a slab, bro. Safety in the crucial first couple of minutes is self-help.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/15/children-and-adults-gunned-down-in-connecticut-school-massacre/ It's in the 3:06 p.m. update. Just going to say that I found out off the record just how bad this was going to be ("over 20 dead" someone told me) a little over an hour before the media got it and were still only saying the gunman was dead. Still didn't prepare me one iota for the shock. I feel 100 years old. For me, it was not really shock... I do understand what you are feeling... For me, it was less shock and more tears, sadness, and prayer... Death has always been around us in different shapes and forms... Especially when it comes to murdering children. Feeling a 100 years old, surely stuff like the 1913 Massacre and Ludlow, CO come to mind: Especially around Christmas time... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster Or: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Massacre I get what you're saying about predictability and habits... but that's an extremely marginal factor in a case where there's a determined individual bent on destruction and who doesn't care a wot about consequences b/c he's preparing to die anyway, and is simply seeking personal vengeance and then whatever he can get to try to rack up a high score. There is no way that routines and/or changing them up would have made a difference here. He had deadly weapons combined with psychotic bent, and they hid behind doors and under desks. Feel however you want in whatever way helps you sleep. But if someone has you as a target for whatever reason and you have no method of security other than the police with 10 minute response times... you're on a slab, bro. Safety in the crucial first couple of minutes is self-help. Fair enough... Your middle paragraph is troubling. About psychotic bent. I just don't understand how the mother in this situation (legal gun owner) would want to be around those weapons... Almost flirting w/fate. Of course, not the weapons fault... But, it was opportunistic and easy... I just don't understand the opportunity that make self-destruction (and now others) so easy.
birdog1960 Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 China is the opposite of what you describe, culturally - yet they have a years-long epidemic of maniacs stabbing schoolchildren. The problem ain't capitalism, sorry. the opposite isn't required. it isn't black and white and that's part of the problem: we are largely a nation of absolutists. an earlier poster was ridiculed for his religiosity. divine or not, (and, yes, i'm a believer) jesus' doctrines would go a long way to making people treat each other better. so would the teachings of many of the other historic spiritual leaders. yes, people will try to fashion them for their own ends but overall it's a win for everyone. kindness isn't limited to a particular political philosophy or system. .
K-9 Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 the opposite isn't required. it isn't black and white and that's part of the problem: we are largely a nation of absolutists. an earlier poster was ridiculed for his religiosity. divine or not, (and, yes, i'm a believer) jesus' doctrines would go a long way to making people treat each other better. so would the teachings of many of the other historic spiritual leaders. yes, people will try to fashion them for their own ends but overall it's a win for everyone. kindness isn't limited to a particular political philosophy or system. . I don't know. I think kindness can be very limited by particular political philosophies, systems, and religions. Kindness is an innate human quality to those otherwise unaffected by physiological or environmental influences.
NoSaint Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) I don't know. I think kindness can be very limited by particular political philosophies, systems, and religions. Kindness is an innate human quality to those otherwise unaffected by physiological or environmental influences. There's some sort of cheesy saying about kindness being contagious, I'm sure. It seems as a nation we are currently so set on beating into submission our (often faceless) opponent that we forget to reach out and care about the ones we love (and especially the ones we disagree with). Changing the way we deal with each other (and why the "if you cared about kids" argument drives me so crazy) and having real dialogue is important. Besides being cordial, a pleasant byproduct is it makes it easier to pick up when someone isn't ok... Certainly won't fix all our problems, but neither will a political party.... You idiots. Edited December 15, 2012 by NoSaint
3rdnlng Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 For me, it was not really shock... I do understand what you are feeling... For me, it was less shock and more tears, sadness, and prayer... Death has always been around us in different shapes and forms... Especially when it comes to murdering children. Feeling a 100 years old, surely stuff like the 1913 Massacre and Ludlow, CO come to mind: Especially around Christmas time... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster Or: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Massacre Fair enough... Your middle paragraph is troubling. About psychotic bent. I just don't understand how the mother in this situation (legal gun owner) would want to be around those weapons... Almost flirting w/fate. Of course, not the weapons fault... But, it was opportunistic and easy... I just don't understand the opportunity that make self-destruction (and now others) so easy. Wow, that's some change in attitude after your posts in the first couple of pages in this thread. After all, you did tell me to "grow a pair" after I admonished you for immediately politicizing the massacre.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) the opposite isn't required. it isn't black and white and that's part of the problem: we are largely a nation of absolutists. an earlier poster was ridiculed for his religiosity. divine or not, (and, yes, i'm a believer) jesus' doctrines would go a long way to making people treat each other better. so would the teachings of many of the other historic spiritual leaders. yes, people will try to fashion them for their own ends but overall it's a win for everyone. kindness isn't limited to a particular political philosophy or system. . Not that I want to go there, at all, but Christianity has inflicted violence throughout history... As have other religions. And the notion that more religion would mean less absolutism - I mean geez, the opposite is true. Edited December 15, 2012 by Coach Tuesday
Chef Jim Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 You know, if there wasn't media, especially that commie, pinko liberal biased media... This wouldn't have happened. Let's take away the yellow journalism. Guns don't kill... The media does! Not that I'm a big fan of Morgan Freeman but from him: Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday : "You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why. It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody. CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next. You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
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