miserable_fan Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Big Ben has 2 rings & is 10-4 in the playoffs, that is ELITE. Flawed logic
The Voice of Truth Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 You're all idiots for not having Ryan Fitzpatrick #1. Thiggy is a close #2. Those 2 make up the elite class.
49er Fan Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Um, Pitt hasnt been the top D most of his career. It was dominant when he first came into the league, and has always been a good D, but not even close to the best D each year. There has been no better defense in the entire league from 2004-2012 than Pittsburgh. Don't waste your time looking up stats, there's no doubt about it.
BillsFan130 Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are Gods amongst the NFL. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are elite. Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger are debatable. perfectly said
cage Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Rodgers is in the first group. ahh, so is Eli,... didn't like him much for a while, but anyone saying he hasn't earned enormous respect the last 2 years is not being fair... and he beat Brady in a Super Bowl before that. Peyton and Brees only have one SB each. Eli's in the top tier
Buftex Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Cam Newton would've been considered a guy on the rise going into this season. I don't think anybody is close to the top 6 guys in Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, and Rodgers. Matt Ryan would be the top guy in the 2nd tier. Cam should still be considered, at least, borderline elite. He is pretty amazing...now that Rivera is starting to realize he is likely going to lose his job, he is handing the offense back over to Newton, and he has been tremendous the last month or so...I'd take him in a heartbeat. As for Ben Roethlisberger, I don't know if he is elite, but to me, he would be the ideal QB for the Bills.
Boatdrinks Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Active ELITE (not necessarily HOF'ers) 1. P Manning 2 E Manning 3 Brady 4 Rodgers 5 Roethlisberger 6 Brees Anyone else : second tier or lower.
Alphadawg7 Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 There has been no better defense in the entire league from 2004-2012 than Pittsburgh. Don't waste your time looking up stats, there's no doubt about it. You said they were the number 1 D every year, I said they were not. He had some great D's and he had some pretty good D's no doubt, not disputing that. But Ben has come through when his defense hasnt countless times. Like in the SB after they gave up what looked like a game ending TD to Fitzgerald from Warner, he marched down on one of the best drives in SB history and threw what was one of the best TD's of in NFL history. Pitts success is not all defense is the point...Big Ben has been a major reason for their success, just like their D has been very important too. Unless you think its been Troy Polamalu out there throwing passes to Ward, Burress, Wallace, Holmes, Brown, Miller, etc.
J-E-T-S-L-O-L Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 IMO most everyone's short list would include: Brady Brees PManning Next with the greatest support (but not on all lists): EManning Rodgers Roethlisberger I don't think any other vets make it, and rookies (RG3, Luck, etc) too early to include. Be interested what others think. I agree with that list, except Eli. Not exactly what I was after but I know some people are sensitive around here. But since you brought it up let's see if we can make some observations about how to acquire an all important franchise QB (the 6 guys in my OP claim the last 9 SB rings ). This is sort of a self-fullfilling prophecy or whatever you want to call it. The QBs on the list are "elite", because they won superbowls. Therefore all the last superbowls are won by elite QBs. Thereby the conclusion; you have to have an elite QB to win a SB. In my opinion Eli Manning is not elite. He costs his team almost as many games as he wins. Tom Bradys failure to solve the Giants defense in both games, were the difference, not Eli. The miracle play. was classic Eli; escapes good throws bad, only this time he got lucky. Ben Roethlisberger migth be elite. But if you`re gonna jugde on rings. The minimum requirement should be, the QB should atleast not be detrimental to the teams effort. Big Ben played worse then Dilfer when he won his first ring, and wayyyy worse then Brad Johnson. So Big Ben may be elite, but you can only use the one ring as an argument. Putting Ben over Peyton Manning, Rodgers or Brees because Ben has "2" rings is just dumb imo.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 Sam Bradford I agree with that list, except Eli. This is sort of a self-fullfilling prophecy or whatever you want to call it. The QBs on the list are "elite", because they won superbowls. Therefore all the last superbowls are won by elite QBs. Thereby the conclusion; you have to have an elite QB to win a SB. In my opinion Eli Manning is not elite. He costs his team almost as many games as he wins. Tom Bradys failure to solve the Giants defense in both games, were the difference, not Eli. The miracle play. was classic Eli; escapes good throws bad, only this time he got lucky. Ben Roethlisberger migth be elite. But if you`re gonna jugde on rings. The minimum requirement should be, the QB should atleast not be detrimental to the teams effort. Big Ben played worse then Dilfer when he won his first ring, and wayyyy worse then Brad Johnson. So Big Ben may be elite, but you can only use the one ring as an argument. Putting Ben over Peyton Manning, Rodgers or Brees because Ben has "2" rings is just dumb imo. Big Ben is 100% elite. He mainly has a terrible oline and makes plays other QBs can't make. You switch him and Losman and we're an annual playoff team.
J-E-T-S-L-O-L Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 Sam Bradford Big Ben is 100% elite. He mainly has a terrible oline and makes plays other QBs can't make. You switch him and Losman and we're an annual playoff team. I said I agreed with that list except Eli. That includes Big Ben. But I`ve not come to that conclusion based solely on the fact he has 2 rings.
CardinalScotts Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 Big Ben has 2 rings & is 10-4 in the playoffs, that is ELITE. thats a good team
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 I said I agreed with that list except Eli. That includes Big Ben. But I`ve not come to that conclusion based solely on the fact he has 2 rings. I think Big Ben is great. He is the perfect QB for that team. They wouldn't have won 2 rings with too many other QBs. That's elite imo. thats a good team Big Ben makes plays other QBs can't make. His oline is normally one of the worst in the league and he's so clutch. He's legit and I can't believe people argue it. I'd take that rapist in a second.
K-9 Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 QBs have to win other important games just to get to the SB, let alone win one. Playoff game performances mean a lot as do any other single-elimination type regular season games. Let's not confine the discussion to SB wins only. It's shortsighted. GO BILLS!!!
truth on hold Posted December 11, 2012 Author Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) I agree with that list, except Eli. This is sort of a self-fullfilling prophecy or whatever you want to call it. The QBs on the list are "elite", because they won superbowls. Therefore all the last superbowls are won by elite QBs. Thereby the conclusion; you have to have an elite QB to win a SB. In my opinion Eli Manning is not elite. He costs his team almost as many games as he wins. Tom Bradys failure to solve the Giants defense in both games, were the difference, not Eli. The miracle play. was classic Eli; escapes good throws bad, only this time he got lucky. Ben Roethlisberger migth be elite. But if you`re gonna jugde on rings. The minimum requirement should be, the QB should atleast not be detrimental to the teams effort. Big Ben played worse then Dilfer when he won his first ring, and wayyyy worse then Brad Johnson. So Big Ben may be elite, but you can only use the one ring as an argument. Putting Ben over Peyton Manning, Rodgers or Brees because Ben has "2" rings is just dumb imo. Its not wholly self fulfilling but I see your point there's an element of cause and effect. However its not definitive. No one was calling dilfer and Brad johnson elite just for winning a SB. And no one is saying Marino wasn't elite for being ringless. But rings are and IMO should be an important consideration Edited December 11, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack
J-E-T-S-L-O-L Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 I think Big Ben is great. He is the perfect QB for that team. They wouldn't have won 2 rings with too many other QBs. That's elite imo. I agree. But I do like the argument the guy made about him being 2-9 when his defense yields more then 21 points. From that you could make an argument that Big Ben wouldn`t have 2 rings with that many other teams either.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 11, 2012 Posted December 11, 2012 I agree. But I do like the argument the guy made about him being 2-9 when his defense yields more then 21 points. From that you could make an argument that Big Ben wouldn`t have 2 rings with that many other teams either. Fair point but stats in football don't tell the whole story. I'd venture that most QBs don't win a ton when their teams give up 21 points in the playoffs.
LiterateStylish Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Big Ben has 2 rings & is 10-4 in the playoffs, that is ELITE. In a room full of midget thinkers I suppose. Ben has straight up sucked in the majority of his playoff games. His defense bailed him out over and over. Edited December 16, 2012 by LiterateStylish
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