Oliver Stone's "Untold History of the United States'"

[dayman]

Anyone watch this? I just saw episode 1. I'm sure there will be much apprehension of the very idea of this given this boards leanings....and honestly some is deserved. But I can say this...episode 1 was a VERY good (imo) bit on WWII. I would recommend this and will definitely watch the rest.

[TakeYouToTasker]

...

[dayman]

...

 

lol...like I said 10 part series I just watched 1...so don't hold me to it if it ends with him calling for the end of capitalism. WWII in part 1 was done well.

[Buftex]

I am kind of curious about it, but didn't see any of it yet...will watch it at some point.

[dayman]

Stayed up and watched another 2. Still very good...although I am uncomfortable with HOW tough on Truman he is. Much of the Truman bashing regarding his rise, early history, and convention scandal is fine by me and likely without controversy but I do feel he's a bit over the top hard on him over the bomb...although I do agree the popular historical narrative is likely too soft on him. Also he seems to idealize Henry Wallace which is perhaps over compensation for his being historically forgotten but is also clearly a counter point to hit Truman harder and praise certain new deal policies that while practical would make constitutional purists cringe.

Edited November 28, 2012 by TheNewBills

[Joe Miner]

1991 called.

 

They said they refused to let go of Oliver Stone's relevancy.

[Oxrock]

So far I haven't seen anything I already hadn't been told. Just a good re-telling of history.

[dayman]

So far I haven't seen anything I already hadn't been told. Just a good re-telling of history.

 

Ya lol....there isn't anything untold...but it has been pretty good.

[B-Man]

Critical review:

 

Misremembrance of Things Past ...........Stone’s Untold History in neither untold nor a history.

By Charles C. W. Cooke

 

Smarter conservatives winced when Francis Fukuyama made his declaration that the closing decade of the 20th century marked the “end of History.” But their disquiet was nothing compared with the sheer wretchedness of those who had spent the prior decades hoping history would progress ever leftwards. When Fukuyama pronounced the endpoint of History, classical liberals publicly accepted the compliment while privately affirming that nothing on this earth is permanent; at the other end of the spectrum, the Marxists looked disconsolately at the emerging storyline and saw that it was dominated by the conceits of their enemies.

 

In defeat, though, comes opportunity. Some were troubled by the very presence of a zeitgeist in which a man might announce to much acclaim that it was time to accept the “universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government,” and they understood Fukuyama’s quixotic assessment as a call to arms. “What do we do now?” they asked. “Well, the same thing we do every night, Pinky,” was the answer. “We try to take over the past!”

 

The Howard Zinn/Noam Chomsky/Oliver Stone Account of Things Past — let’s call this “Zinnism” for brevity’s sake — bubbles up from time to time. The latest contribution to the canon is filmmaker Oliver Stone’s new ten-part documentary, An Untold History of the United States. Stone’s series suffers from the dual afflictions of being neither “untold” nor a “history,” but, given that neither deficiency impedes its purpose, this doesn’t really matter. Propaganda need not be pure.

 

{snip}

 

This year, A People’s History Of the United States was voted one of the ten “least credible history book in print” by the History News Network.

 

Happily, this looks unlikely to change. As Stone well knows, the appeal of Zinnism rests on its remaining unappreciated, as it is primarily for this quality that it sells. Why? Because to those susceptible to such things, the “radical” rewriting of history is interesting and edgy, carrying with it the perverse imprimatur of the illicit, and satisfying that thoroughly modern need for a wildcat James Dean type to come onto the stage and rebel against anything and everything. “Hey, you think your history and country are great?” the Zinnite asks, cigarette hanging at a jaunty angle from his mouth. “Well, actually, they’re not. They’re all lies, and — unlike me — you are a dolt who has bought into the mythology.”

 

When Stone is not being silly, he is being simplistic. He expects us to see evil American hands behind every Bad Thing in history, including the crimes of others. Why, say, did the Soviet Union invade Afghanistan in 1979? Because Jimmy Carter and his national-security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, “set the trap for the Russians in Afghanistan.” Why did the Americans contrive the Marshall Plan? To provoke the Soviets, whose obnoxious behavior, incidentally, can be easily explained by legitimate “fears of both a rearmed Germany and capitalist encirclement.” The Soviet blockade of Berlin, you see, was contrived by the United States, and the Soviet Union’s gross abuse of its own people was merely the product of necessary “breakneck industrialization” undertaken in the pursuit of the “greatest human experiment undertaken.”Another: Why did Stalin form an alliance with Nazi Germany, and brutally occupy much of Eastern Europe? Because America refused to help the Soviet Union in the face of the Nazi threat in the late 1930s. Tediously and predictably, An Untold History of the United States goes on and on like this until we can answer every posed question with, “Let me guess, is it America’s fault again?”

 

{snip}

 

To watch Stone’s documentary series is to watch a man convinced that he has somehow stumbled upon a historical truth that has eluded everybody else — a historical truth that, amazingly enough, fits with his worldview and with his hopes for future change. Howard Zinn was famous for his total lack of pretense at impartiality. “Why should we cherish objectivity?” he once asked, adding that History was not about “understanding the past,” but rather about “changing the future.” With his series, Oliver Stone has proven himself the rightful heir to Zinn’s approach. Television viewers should elect to change their present — by watching something else.

[dayman]

I would just watch if for yourself rather than read reviews. For one, the doc calls Stalin a brutal dictator and does not shy away from Soviet reality it simply highlights the protectionist concerns that drove many of its decisions. And the non-aggression pact with Hitler was absolutely to buy time given that the West wanted no part in war with Germany early on....Hitler and Stalin hated each other more than anybody else. I think the reason he calls it "untold" is simply b/c it highlights the impacts of the US on effecting the various conflicts it was engaged in as opposed to just presenting those as evil and us as reacting to them like highschool history does. Probably over compensates a bit but the first 3 episodes have been pretty good and not that controversial imo

Edited November 28, 2012 by TheNewBills

[Dante]

Sorry can't watch, much more enlightened Jersey Shore re runs will be on.

[Just Jack]

Sorry can't watch, much more enlightened Jersey Shore re runs will be on.

 

Is it the one where they all get drunk and scream at each other? That was a good episode.

[K-9]

I would just watch if for yourself rather than read reviews. For one, the doc calls Stalin a brutal dictator and does not shy away from Soviet reality it simply highlights the protectionist concerns that drove many of its decisions. And the non-aggression pact with Hitler was absolutely to buy time given that the West wanted no part in war with Germany early on....Hitler and Stalin hated each other more than anybody else. I think the reason he calls it "untold" is simply b/c it highlights the impacts of the US on effecting the various conflicts it was engaged in as opposed to just presenting those as evil and us as reacting to them like highschool history does. Probably over compensates a bit but the first 3 episodes have been pretty good and not that controversial imo

 

Thanks for the headsup. I just watched episode one. Can't find the other episodes online yet.

 

While Stone doesn't unearth anything new or offer much more in the way of unreported insights, I always like to get another take on historical events. And some of the footage he uses I've never seen before. The images of the German soldiers hanging civilian Ukranians was numbing. Brought to mind the images of the Blackwater employees hung in Iraq several years ago. No nation, race, or creed has a monopoly on barbaric acts, that's for sure.

 

It's a shame that the Soviet Union was such a closed society for so long and that Stalin was such a monster. If not, perhaps we would have learned more in school about the Soviet Union's role in WWII. An amazing people without which the West wouldn't have won the war. I urge anyone to read as much about their WWII story as possible. I first got hooked when I read Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, by Antony Bevor.

 

I've always been amazed at how an isolated island nation like Japan, with no natural resources of its own, could conquer so much so fast. Their political leaders really failed their people.

 

I'll look forward to finding the other episodes.

[Dante]

Is it the one where they all get drunk and scream at each other? That was a good episode.

No not that one. The one where they were all grossed out about the shmoosh room and Snooky wouldn't clean it.

[dayman]

Thanks for the headsup. I just watched episode one. Can't find the other episodes online yet.

 

While Stone doesn't unearth anything new or offer much more in the way of unreported insights, I always like to get another take on historical events. And some of the footage he uses I've never seen before. The images of the German soldiers hanging civilian Ukranians was numbing. Brought to mind the images of the Blackwater employees hung in Iraq several years ago. No nation, race, or creed has a monopoly on barbaric acts, that's for sure.

 

It's a shame that the Soviet Union was such a closed society for so long and that Stalin was such a monster. If not, perhaps we would have learned more in school about the Soviet Union's role in WWII. An amazing people without which the West wouldn't have won the war. I urge anyone to read as much about their WWII story as possible. I first got hooked when I read Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, by Antony Bevor.

 

I've always been amazed at how an isolated island nation like Japan, with no natural resources of its own, could conquer so much so fast. Their political leaders really failed their people.

 

I'll look forward to finding the other episodes.

 

Ya episode 1 really did one of the better jobs I have seen in recent documentaries going into detail on the eastern front. Really highlights what a fool Hitler was.

[CosmicBills]

It's a shame that the Soviet Union was such a closed society for so long and that Stalin was such a monster. If not, perhaps we would have learned more in school about the Soviet Union's role in WWII. An amazing people without which the West wouldn't have won the war. I urge anyone to read as much about their WWII story as possible. I first got hooked when I read Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, by Antony Bevor.

 

 

To quote one of my favorite historians,

 

"World War II was won with our stuff and Russian blood."

[K-9]

To quote one of my favorite historians,

 

"World War II was won with our stuff and Russian blood."

 

Definitely our stuff early on but once they ramped up their industrial power, they were producing aircraft of all types in great numbers and their T-34 tank production really helped turn the tide against German Panzers on the ground. The Battle of Kursk really underscores the huge superiority the Soviets had in terms of equipment and manpower.

[CosmicBills]

Definitely our stuff early on but once they ramped up their industrial power, they were producing aircraft of all types in great numbers and their T-34 tank production really helped turn the tide against German Panzers on the ground. The Battle of Kursk really underscores the huge superiority the Soviets had in terms of equipment and manpower.

Absolutely. It's an oversimplification for sure but it always stuck with me because going by how WWII is portrayed in pop-culture in the 50s and beyond you'd think the Soviets didn't even fight in WWII when in reality they paid perhaps the highest price of all nations in terms of blood. I read a lot of primary source journals about Stalingrad that were just chilling in terms of the mentality. Talk about tough SOBs.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Absolutely. It's an oversimplification for sure but it always stuck with me because going by how WWII is portrayed in pop-culture in the 50s and beyond you'd think the Soviets didn't even fight in WWII when in reality they paid perhaps the highest price of all nations in terms of blood. I read a lot of primary source journals about Stalingrad that were just chilling in terms of the mentality. Talk about tough SOBs.

I'm sure it makes a difference when your country is being overrun. Worst we had was a shortage of say rubber tires.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Thanks for the headsup. I just watched episode one. Can't find the other episodes online yet.

 

While Stone doesn't unearth anything new or offer much more in the way of unreported insights, I always like to get another take on historical events. And some of the footage he uses I've never seen before. The images of the German soldiers hanging civilian Ukranians was numbing. Brought to mind the images of the Blackwater employees hung in Iraq several years ago. No nation, race, or creed has a monopoly on barbaric acts, that's for sure.

 

It's a shame that the Soviet Union was such a closed society for so long and that Stalin was such a monster. If not, perhaps we would have learned more in school about the Soviet Union's role in WWII. An amazing people without which the West wouldn't have won the war. I urge anyone to read as much about their WWII story as possible. I first got hooked when I read Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, by Antony Bevor.

 

I've always been amazed at how an isolated island nation like Japan, with no natural resources of its own, could conquer so much so fast. Their political leaders really failed their people.

 

I'll look forward to finding the other episodes.

 

LOL

 

An amazing people? The USSR was THE most wicked, corrupt and murderous regime in the history of mankind. Yes, WORSE than the Third Reich. You speak of the Ukranians. Take a read of Stalin's history in the Ukraine. How many countless millions of people were murdered, persecuted, enslaved. Ask the people of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria about the USSR. Would the war have been won without them? Probably not.

 

But don't idolize something that is inherently evil.