peterpan Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 He had 29 carries and 5 catches in the first two games. That's an average of 17 touches. That's not many more. Actually thats almost double.
FireChan Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I disagree, as do most fans posting in this forum that I've read. CJ is leading the league in YPC avg and the fact he only gets 9 carries is totally wrong. Look at the stats, the Bills have the 25th ranked passing offense and 6th ranked rushing offense. Letting Fitz throw 40+ times a game is why they LOSE!! The KC game in which they won 36 rushes for 201 yards and 2 TD's. Fitz 10 of 19 for 178 2 TD's. Spiller was the feature back in this game 15 attempts 123 yards, 2 TD's The Browns game in which they won 34 rushes for 138 yards, Fitz 22 of 35 for 208, 3 TD's Choice was the feature back, 20 carries 91 yards. Spiller left with a shoulder injury. The Arizona Game in which they won 33 rushes for 165 yards 2 TD's Fred Jackson was the feature back 16 for 53, 1 TD. Spiller 12 for 88 1 TD. Against the Jets 26 rushes, the Patriots 27 rushes, 49ers 19 rushes, Titans 24 rushes, Texans 15 rushes, Patriots 28 rushes. Which shows that when the Bills rush more then 30 times a game they win. They key to winning here is running more (6th ranked) and Fitz throwing less (25th ranked) Complete and utter horse poop! Spiller has been the feature back in games both this year and last year, and it didn't diminish his ability to make big plays, in fact the opposite is true and it gives him more opportunities to make plays. in 2011 Spiller played in 16 games, had 11 game starts and averaged 5.2 YPC. Which is pretty darn good. To put that in perspective only Jim Brown and Barry Sanders averaged over 5.0 yards per carry in their careers. Chan Gailey is just a moron for being pass happy and letting Fitz throw more then he uses his RB's or for starting Fred Jackson over Spiller. IMO the entire reason the bills are such losers is because Gailey wants Fitz to carry the games by throwing 30- 40+ times when he should be running the ball more to the tune of 35 carries. Spiller is the biggest play maker on the team and should be getting between 20-25 touches a game, every game! The mere fact that Chan Gailey himself stated both RB's should be getting 40 touches a games refutes the OP point of this thread. I didn't realize Fitz throwing 2 touchdowns a game is why we lose. So you're saying if we ran it every down, we'd put up 40 points rather than 32? Hmm. Can't argue with that "logic".
eball Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 15 carries and 5 catches per game is NOT too much of a workload for any NFL RB. Spiller should be getting that. End of story.
The Voice of Truth Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 Actually thats almost double. Either your math skills are outrageously bad or you don't fully understand something about what was said. The original post said Spiller is getting the ball 12-15 times per game. In TWO games the other guy referenced he had a total of 34 touches. That equates to an average of 17 per game. Maybe I was raised on a different planet, but I never new 17 was almost double 12-15. 15 carries and 5 catches per game is NOT too much of a workload for any NFL RB. Spiller should be getting that. End of story. You can't just come up with an arbitrary number of time he should get the ball. Chan (not a real quote obviously but a sarcastic one) "I will get CJ the ball 23 times this week. That's our gameplan. Let's go play." You have to have find effective ways of getting him the ball as a result of how teams gameplan against him. How would you get him the extra touches? Like a traditional back; I-Form handoffs up the middle?
Dopey Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) And nowhere did I say or even imply that it said to use Spiller less. (and you accused me of not reading a post lol) The premise of the original post was to say that Spiller has been getting the ball less than many want.....and that it is justified. In regards to the illogical point... Firstly, Spiller is regularly setting up in the shotgun formation(as is FJ)....as well as the I-Form....and he seems to be very productive out of both. If teams can't handle him when he is on the field for half the plays, what logic is there to think that they'll start getting better at handling him over an entire game? Secondly.....using the logic put forward, why wouldn't opposing teams just swarm to any RB we line up in the I-Form? If it supposedly is going to reduce the effectiveness of Spiller with no repercussions against the defense since we "are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield".....why wouldn't that tactic work even better against a lesser RB? Simplified, the argument put forward in post #1 is that Spiller is so dynamic that teams will focus solely upon him....therefore we are better off only using him sparingly. You'll have to forgive me. When you said.... "You can't ground and pound 25 times a game. You have to find unique ways to get him the ball in space. Because you can't come up with 25 unique ways per week to get him the ball (your entire offense would be gimmick based), he gets 12-15 touches." ....you stated 25 ground and pounds and also 25 unique ways to get him the ball....talking about the same thing. My mistake I guess And nowhere did I say or even imply that it said to use Spiller less. (and you accused me of not reading a post lol) Really?!? Wow! I read your reply again and found this: "Let me see if I understand this logic..... Spiller is such a potent weapon on Offense....so much so that the entire Defense focuses on him.....therfore he should only be on the field a small number of times. Got it!!!" Did you write this or did I make this up?!?(Yes I accuse you of not reading the post. It's either that or you are not too bright) The premise of the original post was to say that Spiller has been getting the ball less than many want.....and that it is justified. Actually the premise of the OP was that Spiller WAS getting the ball enough.(Again read the post).It's even in the title of the OP! Edited November 13, 2012 by Dopey
Dibs Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 And nowhere did I say or even imply that it said to use Spiller less. (and you accused me of not reading a post lol) Really?!? Wow! I read your reply again and found this: "Let me see if I understand this logic..... Spiller is such a potent weapon on Offense....so much so that the entire Defense focuses on him.....therfore he should only be on the field a small number of times. Got it!!!" Did you write this or did I make this up?!?(Yes I accuse you of not reading the post. It's either that or you are not too bright) Are you really that worked up in having to win an argument on the internet that your ability to comprehend English diminishes....or is this just normal for you? "A Small number of times" This refers to the fact that at the moment Spiller is getting the ball only a small number of times per game compared to the normal running back in the league.....and the original poster was saying that this small number (12-15) was justified. The original poster never said that we should be using Spiller less than what we have been.....AND I NEVER STATED THAT HE HAD DONE SO!!!! Please.....either learn to comprehend what people are writing or cease posting on TBD.
bowery4 Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 CJ can handle more touches (who are you and Chan, John Rauch?) and Chan should find other ways to make him even more effective, 2 TE sets for instance, more play action (actually happy he did do this more in NE*). Fred is great and they should use them both more. They use the spread tooooooo MUCH! Yes they could score more, passing is a great thing but they do it to much and Fitz isn't as consistent as the 2 best guys on the offense. Last point we need some sets with the best 2 backs in the backfield. I would do some more gimmicks in the run game too, if it puts it in the best guy on the teams hands (or even the 2nd best), hell run the wishbone. Do a STUPID wildcat and hike it straight to Spiller instead of Brad or even Cory instead of Brad. Change **** up and be gimmicky if it works, it really wouldn't hurt. I would much rather almost never see an empty back field all spread wide on 3rd and 2 again. I don't care if we are down by 14 with 4 minutes to go.
thewildrabbit Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I didn't realize Fitz throwing 2 touchdowns a game is why we lose. So you're saying if we ran it every down, we'd put up 40 points rather than 32? Hmm. Can't argue with that "logic". Its that want you got from that post? ... Apparently you missed the part about the 25th passing offense vs the 6th rushing offense, I'd much rather see the ball in the hands of the two super star RB's the majority of the game then a guy who can be horribly inaccurate at times and does throw that game losing INT now and then. If we can let them touch it between 30 and 40 times a game, I think that’s pretty good for us.” per Chan Gailey http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121024/SPORTS/121029603/1004 READ THIS! http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1403731-cj-spiller-needs-more-touches-for-bills-to-upset-patriots-in-week-10 AND THIS. http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2012/11/12/chain-links-c-j-spiller-played-in-less-than-half-of-the-bills-offensive-snaps-yesterday/ With freakish lateral agility and instant acceleration reminiscent of an early-career CJ2K, Spiller is threatening to break Pro Football Focus’ Elusiveness scale. He leads the NFL with an absurd 7.2 YPC average and 4.3 yards after contact per attempt, capable of taking every touch to the house. Since Week 13 of last season (a 13-game stretch), Spiller has 953 rushing yards at a league-leading 6.6 YPC to go with 408 receiving yards on 45 receptions. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/41854/57/week-10-rankings Only Bills fans would think Spiller is being used smartly, Its the rest of the world thats wrong
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 It's the Mike Martz school of football. Instead of feeding Marshall Faulk, they get cute and out think themselves. If a player is averaging 7 yards a carry for the season and you only give him 7-8 carries a game that is not enough. The Philly fans also accuse Reid of misusing McCoy and they're probably right. I'm typically somewhat of a realistic fan but I have a strange sense of optimism from here on out. It's not warranted, and it's not based on yesterday's game. I've been saying all year that the Bills will be in every game and have a tremendous chance to win if you can get CJ the ball 25+ times in a game. I honestly believe he has the capability to be a top 5 offensive threat in this league. Just getting bodies on him isn't enough for opposing defenses because he's so darn fast. Get him in open space and it's a win 9 times out of 10. This right here. We've tried it the way were doing it for years. With Freddy. With CJ. Both are or were dominant. Lets just try it "ALL IN" with Dpiller running the ball 20-25 times a game just to see what happens. What would it hurt? Personally I think 25 times a game is too much for a person of his build but I guess you guys will get your wish. BTW, we have two somewhat separate issues here: 1) How often he touches the ball 2) How many plays per game he participates in Even as a decoy, I think his value is very high. Also since no one has mentioned it, Gailey said he was going to have them both in the game more often this year. Has anyone tracked this? Total plays for the offense, total plays for each player. Seeing as either one or the other is always on the field it's easy math.
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 Actually thats almost double. Doubling is deceptive though. Say you had a guy averaging 0.0001 carries a game. The guy with double the amount of carries wouldn't get very tired.
Yard Monkey Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 I think many if you need to prepare yourself for the fact that Choice will get a fair number of touches tonight. It's not all going to Spiller even without FJ
bigK14094 Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 Spiller/Jackson splitting by series is wrong in my view. I think that Spiller should start, be the first down back, But Jackson should be the short yardage back, and both should be on the field some of the time, get your best players out there. So, I agree with those that want a different mix. I am almost ready to make Jackson the 3d dwon back, but thats still wrong, Fred is to good for that. So, both are 1 and 1A types, and saving both for the long term by sharing the hits is smart. Chan needs to change it, but I really don't know exactly how to do that in this offense.
thewildrabbit Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 I think many if you need to prepare yourself for the fact that Choice will get a fair number of touches tonight. It's not all going to Spiller even without FJ There is no doubt Choice will get his touches with Fred Jackson out, almost the same way that Jackson and Spiller complemented each other. Although, I will expect Spiller to be the feature back in this game and get the majority of the touches. Hopefully along the lines of something like 25 touches to the tune of 15+ rushes 5-10 receptions. Depending of course on how he holds up against a decent Dolphin defense against the run. Miami is ranked 5th in the NFL against the run so it could be a very tough outing for both Choice and Spiller. Meanwhile the Dolphins suck worse then the Bills in pass defense like 26th for Miami vs 20th for Buffalo. The one constant about Chan Gailey has is you can always count on him to be pass happy in every game, and considering the Dolphins defense against the pass I don't see that changing this game. I suppose how Fitz and the O line holds up against a decent Dolphin pass rush should be very telling as to how good the Bills line genuinely is as the phins did sack the Cards Kevin Kolb 8 times. I think many if you need to prepare yourself for the fact that Choice will get a fair number of touches tonight. It's not all going to Spiller even without FJ welcome Yeah there is no question that Spiller is the bigger play maker at this point, and you want the ball in the best players hands.
thewildrabbit Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 The Philly fans also accuse Reid of misusing McCoy and they're probably right. Personally I think 25 times a game is too much for a person of his build but I guess you guys will get your wish.. CJ Spiller Height 5'11 weight 200 Thurman Thomas 13 seasons, 182 games played, 12,074 yards career rushing, 4458 yards receiving...Height 5'10" weight 199 Thurman in his heyday was 75% of the Bills offense, and the Bills ran more then they threw most years 88, 89, 90, 92, 93. almost 300 carries every year, and 50+ receptions CJ2k 5'11'' 191 Jamaal Charles 5'11 199
TheBackupQB Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 when Fred was out Spiller racked up Yards and Carries....then he had the shoulder thing...came back and still look great as aball carrier
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 CJ Spiller Height 5'11 weight 200 Thurman Thomas 13 seasons, 182 games played, 12,074 yards career rushing, 4458 yards receiving...Height 5'10" weight 199 Thurman in his heyday was 75% of the Bills offense, and the Bills ran more then they threw most years 88, 89, 90, 92, 93. almost 300 carries every year, and 50+ receptions CJ2k 5'11'' 191 Jamaal Charles 5'11 199 Thurman Thomas had a very different body type than Spiller. I've stated ad nauseum over the years here that height/weight tell us very little about bodies. Thurman had a thicker build than Spiller. I'll give you Chris Johnson although he's what some people might call an anomaly. Jamaal Charles in the previous 4 seasons to 2012 has averaged only 12.57 touches per game. Stupid emoticon right back at ya.
thewildrabbit Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 Thurman Thomas had a very different body type than Spiller. I've stated ad nauseum over the years here that height/weight tell us very little about bodies. Thurman had a thicker build than Spiller. I'll give you Chris Johnson although he's what some people might call an anomaly. Jamaal Charles in the previous 4 seasons to 2012 has averaged only 12.57 touches per game. Stupid emoticon right back at ya. I don't have inside Info on either players bodies as I've not seen either player naked so I can't attest to their bodies types. I know some players look thicker because of the types of pads / padding they wear. I do know that Spiller ran a 4.27-4.37 which is lightning fast. I think Thurman was 4.4 or something. Barry Sanders 5'8' 203 4.37...Emmitt Smith 5'9'', 210 4.49. Anyway, they all look like they have about the same build to me. If anything I think Spiller has been under utilized so far in his career. From what I've read from statements made by Spiller he has stated he is quietly waiting for his chance to start full time. Even he wants more touches!
San-O Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 Chan isn't very good. He forces the throw, and it doesn't work. Run more, throw less. Spiller's YPC average is actually BETTER Sh*tzy's YPA: Spiller 7.3 yards per carry. Fitz like 6.7 yards per attempt I believe. That's crazy.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 Anyway, they all look like they have about the same build to me. Well that's the crux of the biscuit right there because I think all those guys have very different body types.
KD in CA Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 CJ Spiller Height 5'11 weight 200 Thurman Thomas 13 seasons, 182 games played, 12,074 yards career rushing, 4458 yards receiving...Height 5'10" weight 199 Thurman in his heyday was 75% of the Bills offense, and the Bills ran more then they threw most years 88, 89, 90, 92, 93. almost 300 carries every year, and 50+ receptions CJ2k 5'11'' 191 Jamaal Charles 5'11 199 First, players are much bigger now than 20+ years ago, so a RB of the same size of going to take more of a beating now than in TT's era. Second, TT averaged 17.5 carries a game in his first 5 years -- a far cry from 25. Third, it has become a well established pattern that a season of dramatic overuse will have lasting career implications. For TT, that was year 6, when he had 355 rushes (and his YPC dropped by more than a full yard). Thereafter, his averages for rushing yards, catches and YPC stayed well below his career average for next 3 seasons before he basically ran out of gas in '97 and became a part-time player. Is Spiller being underused? Yes. But people are overrecating.
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