thewildrabbit Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Chan Gailey admitted both Jackson and Spiller should be getting 20 touches a game each, he stated they should be getting 40 touches. So Gailey himself acknowledged he hasn't utilized either back most games to maximum effectiveness! C'mon 9 carries for Spiller against the Patriots and giving Fitz 40 attempts is blatantly wrong. Jackson did get his 20 touches but when Spiller is leading the NFL in yards per carry its just stupid not to have him touch the ball more.Whats crazy is Gailey knows what to do and yet can't bring himself to stop calling empty backfield 4-5 WR set passing plays. Besides Johnson and Jones wtf is worth taking Jackson and Spiller off the field for?.... NOBODY! Even Fitz called for Spiller to get more touches. This game against Miami they will have no choice but to make Spiller the feature back.
bills1960 Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I'm typically somewhat of a realistic fan but I have a strange sense of optimism from here on out. It's not warranted, and it's not based on yesterday's game. I've been saying all year that the Bills will be in every game and have a tremendous chance to win if you can get CJ the ball 25+ times in a game. I honestly believe he has the capability to be a top 5 offensive threat in this league. Just getting bodies on him isn't enough for opposing defenses because he's so darn fast. Get him in open space and it's a win 9 times out of 10.
KollegeStudnet Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I'm typically somewhat of a realistic fan but I have a strange sense of optimism from here on out. It's not warranted, and it's not based on yesterday's game. I've been saying all year that the Bills will be in every game and have a tremendous chance to win if you can get CJ the ball 25+ times in a game. I honestly believe he has the capability to be a top 5 offensive threat in this league. Just getting bodies on him isn't enough for opposing defenses because he's so darn fast. Get him in open space and it's a win 9 times out of 10. I agree! His yards per carry and yards after catch--even leads the league in yards after contact for an RB! CJ is just a sick individual! I hope and pray the Bills can figure out how to play him in the next regime--IF there is a change of regime in 2013!
Al Cowlings Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 While it seems nearly every Bills fan is calling for CJ Spiller to get massively more touches, his chance comes this Thursday. Spiller is clearly an elite NFL talent. His speed and explosiveness set him apart from a league filled with world class athletes. The obvious conclusion would be that you give him the ball tons of times per game. IMO, however, Chan Gailey has been using him correctly. When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. While I would like to see more play action out of this, it is one of my only critiques of how he has been used. Because of this extreme keying in by the defense, you can't run him like a traditional back. You can't ground and pound 25 times a game. You have to find unique ways to get him the ball in space. Because you can't come up with 25 unique ways per week to get him the ball (your entire offense would be gimmick based), he gets 12-15 touches. You can rest assured he affects more plays as a decoy though as well. Jerry Sullivan today, wrote something to the effect of "Spiller is averaging 7+ yards per carry. When are they going to determine that this is a trend and not an exception?" Well Jerry and others, you get your chance this Thursday. While I expect a talent like Spiller to have a big game, I think his effectiveness per touch will drop with more touches. Chan has been using him correctly. CJ is probably thrilled with this type of usage. He is looking at a big contract when he becomes a free agent and gets the heck out of Buffalo. He won't have to worry about teams thinking he has too much mileage on him. His agent should be thrilled.
It's in My Blood Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 CJ is probably thrilled with this type of usage. He is looking at a big contract when he becomes a free agent and gets the heck out of Buffalo. He won't have to worry about teams thinking he has too much mileage on him. His agent should be thrilled. Yea..not likely. C.J. will not leave Buffalo anytime soon. He will be franchised if anything. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he is extended this offseason. I actually expect it. BTW- you might wanna go and talk to someone about shaking that Buffalo inferiority complex.
The Voice of Truth Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Gotta love CJ: “This is familiar territory to me,” Spiller said Monday. “I’m not worried about how many times I touch (the ball). Like I said I’m just from here on out just worried about wins. Everybody is concerned about whether I can touch it 25 times, but at the end of the day if I do that and we lose that means nothing. I’m just trying to help my team win so we can experience what it’s like to play in the playoffs.”' Chan Gailey admitted both Jackson and Spiller should be getting 20 touches a game each, he stated they should be getting 40 touches. So Gailey himself acknowledged he hasn't utilized either back most games to maximum effectiveness! C'mon 9 carries for Spiller against the Patriots and giving Fitz 40 attempts is blatantly wrong. Jackson did get his 20 touches but when Spiller is leading the NFL in yards per carry its just stupid not to have him touch the ball more.Whats crazy is Gailey knows what to do and yet can't bring himself to stop calling empty backfield 4-5 WR set passing plays. Besides Johnson and Jones wtf is worth taking Jackson and Spiller off the field for?.... NOBODY! Even Fitz called for Spiller to get more touches. This game against Miami they will have no choice but to make Spiller the feature back. Yeah in the perfect scenario. When the defense is getting off the field with a lot of three and outs you can get them that many touches. When the Bills are converting on third downs, thus, giving the offense more plays they can get those touches. Yeah, in a perfect world when the game goes exactly as planned, but you have a team on the other side trying to make sure that you don't dictate how the game goes. Has it been absolutely perfect play calling? No. Nobody's is. But, overall Chan has used Spiller smartly. Edited November 13, 2012 by The Voice of Truth
bg17 Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 According to buffalorumblings CJ was in for 34 plays and on the sideline for 40. That cant be using him correctly.
jjmac Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: and So, how do you really feel?
mrags Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 HIs YPC might fall. Even it does, his YPG will go up dramatically with more touches. Is the point of football to set some efficiency record or put points on the board? I think his YPC would go up with 20 touches, because one of those runs is likely to be of the 50 yard+ variety. Either way, I want to find out. This right here. We've tried it the way were doing it for years. With Freddy. With CJ. Both are or were dominant. Lets just try it "ALL IN" with Dpiller running the ball 20-25 times a game just to see what happens. What would it hurt?
Dibs Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) If you read my entire post before, you would know that I was fine with 15 touches. I stated he is getting about 12-15 touches per game. Actually, since game 4 where both Spiller and FJ have been healthy..... Spiller Attempts: 8, 7, 12, 12, 6, 9 (9 attempts per game average) (He is getting 6-12 touches per game) Jackson Attempts: 13, 9, 16, 9, 6, 16 (11.5 attempts per game average) (He is getting 6-16 touches per game) 6-12 is a lot less than your stated(assumed?) 12-15......does this mean you will rethink your position on that we are using Spiller correctly? FWIW, I believe Spiller should be getting 15-25 attempts/game......and FJ should be getting 5-15 attempts/game(which he is getting already). Edited November 13, 2012 by Dibs
Dibs Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. Let me see if I understand this logic..... Spiller is such a potent weapon on Offense....so much so that the entire Defense focuses on him.....therfore he should only be on the field a small number of times. Got it!!!
BuffOrange Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Fewer than 10 carries a game is a mistake, but people who are calling for 25 carries a game are not taking a very long view. Spiller would last about two years before the pounding would wear him down if he got that many carries. Agree w/ this. RB's with his explosiveness do not last long enough and with a team that's going absolutely nowhere I have no interest in a "Herm Edwards running Larry Johnson's career into the ground" scenario. If keeping a 'pitch count' on him extends the prime of his career by 2 years I think that's a big plus. Hopefully our defense won't be an abortion in those 'extra' years of elite production. I mean I doubt Gailey is thinking like that since he's unlikely to be here that long but whatever. Edited November 13, 2012 by BuffOrange
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Was expecting something about low mileage trade-in values...
zow2 Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 It'll be nice to see CJ get his 22-25 touches Thursday night but be careful what you wish for. It took until the 3rd game (at Cleveland) before he was driven to the turf violently and messed up his shoulder. I don't need to see CJ taking on dudes head on. Skip around them and get out of bounds or whatever. I thought the NE game was perfect and Fred was running well inside...except for his fumbles. I'm looking forward to watching CJ this week but count me as one of those fans who thinks he will get splattered if they overutilize him.
Dopey Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Let me see if I understand this logic..... Spiller is such a potent weapon on Offense....so much so that the entire Defense focuses on him.....therfore he should only be on the field a small number of times. Got it!!! Instead of trying to understand the logic try reading the entire post first. Here , let me help you: When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. Nowhere does it say use Spiller less. Got it???
sodbuster Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I hate these threads. They are just different backs. FJ is the grinder, CJ will hit the home run. That being said, each is more than capable of doing both, and both should be getting more touches. They're your best players. You really can't go wrong with either of them.
HeHateMe Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 18 carries minimum and throw it to him 5+ times. Have him split out wide when you do the empty back sets. He needs to be on the field for 90% of the plays because he draws so much attention. And he can do his best to avoid injury by getting out of bounds, getting down when the play is done... etc. That shoulder injury was fluky but he bounced back the next game.
The Voice of Truth Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 Actually, since game 4 where both Spiller and FJ have been healthy..... Spiller Attempts: 8, 7, 12, 12, 6, 9 (9 attempts per game average) (He is getting 6-12 touches per game) Jackson Attempts: 13, 9, 16, 9, 6, 16 (11.5 attempts per game average) (He is getting 6-16 touches per game) 6-12 is a lot less than your stated(assumed?) 12-15......does this mean you will rethink your position on that we are using Spiller correctly? FWIW, I believe Spiller should be getting 15-25 attempts/game......and FJ should be getting 5-15 attempts/game(which he is getting already). Once again, read the post. It talked all about "touches", not "rushing attempts". Because you need to use Spiller uniquely, a lot of his "touches" come from receptions. Through 9 games, he has 87 attempts and 28 receptions for a total of 115 touches. Divide this by nine games and you get 12.8 "touches" per game. Also, he has been knocked out of games, or limited in some due to injury (knocked out of Browns game, then they were nursing him back from injury for a week or two). If you account for that, a healthy Spiller is getting more than 12.8 touches per game. Instead of trying to understand the logic try reading the entire post first. Here , let me help you: When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. Nowhere does it say use Spiller less. Got it??? Thanks Dopey. You saved me a few minutes by taking all the words right out of my mouth.
Dibs Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Instead of trying to understand the logic try reading the entire post first. Here , let me help you: When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. Nowhere does it say use Spiller less. Got it??? And nowhere did I say or even imply that it said to use Spiller less. (and you accused me of not reading a post lol) The premise of the original post was to say that Spiller has been getting the ball less than many want.....and that it is justified. In regards to the illogical point... Firstly, Spiller is regularly setting up in the shotgun formation(as is FJ)....as well as the I-Form....and he seems to be very productive out of both. If teams can't handle him when he is on the field for half the plays, what logic is there to think that they'll start getting better at handling him over an entire game? Secondly.....using the logic put forward, why wouldn't opposing teams just swarm to any RB we line up in the I-Form? If it supposedly is going to reduce the effectiveness of Spiller with no repercussions against the defense since we "are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield".....why wouldn't that tactic work even better against a lesser RB? Simplified, the argument put forward in post #1 is that Spiller is so dynamic that teams will focus solely upon him....therefore we are better off only using him sparingly. Once again, read the post. It talked all about "touches", not "rushing attempts". Because you need to use Spiller uniquely, a lot of his "touches" come from receptions. Through 9 games, he has 87 attempts and 28 receptions for a total of 115 touches. Divide this by nine games and you get 12.8 "touches" per game. Also, he has been knocked out of games, or limited in some due to injury (knocked out of Browns game, then they were nursing him back from injury for a week or two). If you account for that, a healthy Spiller is getting more than 12.8 touches per game. You'll have to forgive me. When you said.... "You can't ground and pound 25 times a game. You have to find unique ways to get him the ball in space. Because you can't come up with 25 unique ways per week to get him the ball (your entire offense would be gimmick based), he gets 12-15 touches." ....you stated 25 ground and pounds and also 25 unique ways to get him the ball....talking about the same thing. My mistake I guess
thewildrabbit Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Gotta love CJ: “This is familiar territory to me,” Spiller said Monday. “I’m not worried about how many times I touch (the ball). Like I said I’m just from here on out just worried about wins. Everybody is concerned about whether I can touch it 25 times, but at the end of the day if I do that and we lose that means nothing. I’m just trying to help my team win so we can experience what it’s like to play in the playoffs.”' Yeah in the perfect scenario. When the defense is getting off the field with a lot of three and outs you can get them that many touches. When the Bills are converting on third downs, thus, giving the offense more plays they can get those touches. Yeah, in a perfect world when the game goes exactly as planned, but you have a team on the other side trying to make sure that you don't dictate how the game goes. Has it been absolutely perfect play calling? No. Nobody's is. But, overall Chan has used Spiller smartly. I disagree, as do most fans posting in this forum that I've read. CJ is leading the league in YPC avg and the fact he only gets 9 carries is totally wrong. Look at the stats, the Bills have the 25th ranked passing offense and 6th ranked rushing offense. Letting Fitz throw 40+ times a game is why they LOSE!! The KC game in which they won 36 rushes for 201 yards and 2 TD's. Fitz 10 of 19 for 178 2 TD's. Spiller was the feature back in this game 15 attempts 123 yards, 2 TD's The Browns game in which they won 34 rushes for 138 yards, Fitz 22 of 35 for 208, 3 TD's Choice was the feature back, 20 carries 91 yards. Spiller left with a shoulder injury. The Arizona Game in which they won 33 rushes for 165 yards 2 TD's Fred Jackson was the feature back 16 for 53, 1 TD. Spiller 12 for 88 1 TD. Against the Jets 26 rushes, the Patriots 27 rushes, 49ers 19 rushes, Titans 24 rushes, Texans 15 rushes, Patriots 28 rushes. Which shows that when the Bills rush more then 30 times a game they win. They key to winning here is running more (6th ranked) and Fitz throwing less (25th ranked) Instead of trying to understand the logic try reading the entire post first. Here , let me help you: When Spiller is in the game, the defense is so keyed in on him, that if you use him traditionally, his effectiveness would decrease. Because the Bills offense has shown they are not consistently capable of beating you with passes downfield, when a running weapon like Spiller is on the field, he is far and away the focal point for the defensive players. I've seen it every Sunday. The second Fitz gets into the I-Form and hands it to him, the defense is swarming to Spiller. Nowhere does it say use Spiller less. Got it??? Complete and utter horse poop! Spiller has been the feature back in games both this year and last year, and it didn't diminish his ability to make big plays, in fact the opposite is true and it gives him more opportunities to make plays. in 2011 Spiller played in 16 games, had 11 game starts and averaged 5.2 YPC. Which is pretty darn good. To put that in perspective only Jim Brown and Barry Sanders averaged over 5.0 yards per carry in their careers. Chan Gailey is just a moron for being pass happy and letting Fitz throw more then he uses his RB's or for starting Fred Jackson over Spiller. IMO the entire reason the bills are such losers is because Gailey wants Fitz to carry the games by throwing 30- 40+ times when he should be running the ball more to the tune of 35 carries. Spiller is the biggest play maker on the team and should be getting between 20-25 touches a game, every game! The mere fact that Chan Gailey himself stated both RB's should be getting 40 touches a games refutes the OP point of this thread.
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