Thread for intelligent football dicussion

[ajzepp]

Where is David Lee's success?

 

He coached Romo during his transition to starter...coached Pennington to his best statistical year...supposedly coached Fiedler into a productive starter...helped Miami develop the wildcat...

[mrags]

 

 

He coached Romo during his transition to starter...coached Pennington to his best statistical year...supposedly coached Fiedler into a productive starter...helped Miami develop the wildcat...

HAHAHA!!!

 

You just said that Pennington, Fiedler and the Wildcat were successful. I seriously don't know if your joking or dead serious. And fwiw, Romo is absolutely horrendous. When it comes to clutch moments in games, Fitz is probably on par with Romo.

[kasper13]

Swear I live in the Twilight Zone. It's the same thing over and over only the names have changed. Losman/Edwards/Fitzpatrick. There's very little difference. Mularkey/Jauron/Gailey. Very little difference. The defense is just as bad as it has been for the last 7 years, They continue to lose games they should and would win if only they had better players/coaches. It's the same season over and over on an endless loop with different names. We have a GM nobody else wanted, a coach nobody else wanted and a QB nobody else wanted. Stuck again with a losing team and people will argue to the death that it's different this time. It's not.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

After that game, I am not 100% certain that drafting a QB in the 1st round is an absolute slam dunk, lay-up, no-brainer. I was prior to the game, but after watching Fitzpatrick not only play a pretty close to perfect game until the pick- which yes, his clutch abilities are extremely suspect- but also to tell Spikes "F*** you man," that was freaking awesome. I STILL BELIEVE that drafting a QB in the 1st round is probably the conservative thing to do, but man, if they had any kind of defense whatsoever, they win that game going away. If they do in fact draft a QB in the ist round and pass up on a stud LB, does that make them a better team next season? I think the answer to that questikon is very simple: if it's the guy you think will be the franchise guy for the next ten years, then it doesn't matter. You take him. But if not? Buddy Nix is too smart to draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB. Just playing devil's advocate, I think there is still an argument to be made that you can wing it with Fitz for one more season and see if you can't get a new defensive coordinator, draft a Teo and see what happens. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

 

C'mon dude one game doesn't make up for 8 years of mediocrity, we are never going anywhere until we get a NFL quality QB.

 

Nix has drafted poorly since he has been here.

[Hater]

He missed the thread title.

 

My Point is You Guys Want Fantasy Story about the QB that comes nowhere to win the Superbowl for a downtrodden team but thats just a Fantasy everyone loves an Underdog story, a Cinderella Story Well grow up Real winners win because they have talent & work hard they are not looking for a miracle, Fitzpatrick is what he is below average

[Garion]

It's hopeless worst defense in the league last three years and its the QB that is the problem?!

[UConn James]

In case no one noticed, this is an offense league now. The rules are bent over backwards to promote scoring. You take DEEP shots downfield to get PI calls.

 

You don't have a guy who can consistently throw well and make ALL the throws, game in and game out, you're screwed. Fitz was putting EVERYTHING HE HAS into 20-yard outs. If you saw the first Dalton TD pass vs. the Giants today, Fitzpatrick couldn't throw that in his dreams. Gutting it out another year with him is just going to be more of the same.

 

The D needs some work, needs Dareus to come back for this sophomore slump (and maybe mow some more lawns this offseason like he did during the lockout) and for Mario to show up in Year 2 when most UFAs start getting comfortable (and I he doesn't, release him). We need LBs in the worst way.

 

But if it's Te'o vs. finally getting a franchise QB even if you have to (ad if it's possible to) move up, you get the QB.

 

QB is the heart of your team.

 

And seriously, if they try the whole Tarvaris Jackson 'Look what we found in the garbage last year! Let's polish 'im up and try him out!' routine, I'm completely done with this team. TJ should be given an audition this year, but I get the sinking feeling that he's going to be the marketing ploy for why we didn't draft a QB again.

[ny33]

My Point is You Guys Want Fantasy Story about the QB that comes nowhere to win the Superbowl for a downtrodden team but thats just a Fantasy everyone loves an Underdog story, a Cinderella Story Well grow up Real winners win because they have talent & work hard they are not looking for a miracle, Fitzpatrick is what he is below average

 

Learn English, please. I hope it is your second language.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think a big problem with Fitz has been with David Lee trying to fix him causing more problems.

 

I heard it suggested by someone who claims access to such info that Lee is messing up Fitz. Seems that the flaws in his mechanics are just the way he's used to throwing. Making him throw the "right way" is just making it all worse. I think Fitz is going back to what work for him.

 

PTR

 

I find the timing of this David Lee criticism ironic.

 

Fitz has probably thrown the ball better in the last two weeks than he has all season. I was thinking the opposite of you guys: that the months of trying to re-learn muscle memory was finally starting to pay off.

 

HAHAHA!!!

 

You just said that Pennington, Fiedler and the Wildcat were successful. I seriously don't know if your joking or dead serious. And fwiw, Romo is absolutely horrendous. When it comes to clutch moments in games, Fitz is probably on par with Romo.

 

Chad Pennington had a very good career for a guy with very little talent and zero arm strength. Drew Brees is Chad Pennington with a decent arm.

 

Pennington was a finalist for NFL MVP one year and was twice Comeback Player of the Year. His career passer rating is above 90.

 

Jay Fiedler was an undrafted QB who spent 12 years in the NFL, had more TDs than INTs, and led his team to 3 10+ win seasons in 4 years as a starter.

 

As for Romo, Troy Aikman recently said that Romo "is a better quarterback than I was."

 

Former Pro Bowl Giants wideout Amani Toomer recently said that Romo was "the best quarterback in the NFC East."

 

I'm not gonna debate the issue but I will say that I think Romo gets a bit of a bad rap. He's certainly surrounded by a bunch of guys who underachieve in big moments. And I know a few Cowboys fans who don't think Romo is the problem.

[FanofFredJackson]

The Bills need to redo super Mario's contract and pay him what he's worth in order to be able to afford to acquire and pay a super QB. In fact Mario should be ashamed of the making the sort of money he is currently making, especially since rookies on opposing teams are handling him. And lastly, if I was a player with the Bill's who was out performing Mario and adding more of a contribution to the outcome of the game than Mario while making only a fraction of the money Mario is making, then as a player I couldn't help being resentful. The Bill's management must own up to the fact that they blew it when they went out and purchased Mario at such a high and undeserving salary. Obviously management didn't do their homework.

[mjt328]

Intelligent football discussion? Among schizophrenic Bills fans?

 

 

Fitz craps the bed week after week, and everyone in Buffalo (including Buddy Nix) is in full agreement that we desperately need a new quarterback. He puts up a good performance and suddenly he isn't a problem anymore. Give me a break.

 

 

> Week 1 against the Jets, Fitzpatrick's terrible throws were the main reason that we got into a big hole. 3 picks and he couldn't even throw for 200 yards with the Jets playing soft the entire 4th quarter.

 

> Week 5 against the 49ers - 125 yards passing, 0 tds, 1 pick and 3 points. Nothing more to say. You can't beat anyone with the quarterback playing this bad.

 

> Week 6 against the Titans - He had a decent game statistically, but threw the game-losing interception with 3 minutes left and a 6-point lead. Traditional Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

> Week 7 against the Texans - Fitz was up and down all day. The Bills failed to get in the endzone for the second time this season. 9 total points.

 

 

 

Fans are too worried about figuring out the BIGGEST problem on the team. One week it's the quarterback. The next week it's the linebackers. The next week it's the coaching. The next week it's Aaron Williams. The truth is, we have several problems. And it doesn't really matter if Fitz is contributing to more losses, or if Kelvin Sheppard is. We need to get better at both positions.

 

Here is the bottom line.

Even if Fitz isn't the worst player on the team, it's very hard to get a starting quarterback outside of the first round of the draft. Mid to late round picks rarely work out, and free agent options are almost always backups. Proven QBs are never available for trade - and when they are, they also require high draft picks in exchange.

Other positions are easier to find. For instance, good linebackers can be found almost every year in the 2nd-3rd round - and often later than that. There are frequently good free agent options, and teams are more willing to part with linebackers by trade.

[KOKBILLS]

After that game, I am not 100% certain that drafting a QB in the 1st round is an absolute slam dunk, lay-up, no-brainer. I was prior to the game, but after watching Fitzpatrick not only play a pretty close to perfect game until the pick- which yes, his clutch abilities are extremely suspect- but also to tell Spikes "F*** you man," that was freaking awesome. I STILL BELIEVE that drafting a QB in the 1st round is probably the conservative thing to do, but man, if they had any kind of defense whatsoever, they win that game going away. If they do in fact draft a QB in the ist round and pass up on a stud LB, does that make them a better team next season? I think the answer to that questikon is very simple: if it's the guy you think will be the franchise guy for the next ten years, then it doesn't matter. You take him. But if not? Buddy Nix is too smart to draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB. Just playing devil's advocate, I think there is still an argument to be made that you can wing it with Fitz for one more season and see if you can't get a new defensive coordinator, draft a Teo and see what happens. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

 

Don't get sucked in to what Fitz does vs. average to poor Defenses...It's fools gold...He'll never be good enough...He can't beat good Defensive Teams and his ability to carry the Team to victory late is virtually non-existent, even against lesser D's...

 

I guess it's easier for me...I never wanted Fitz in the 1st place...I've never felt he was going to be good enough...Even though I will admit The Bills would be in a much better position this season if they played almost any Defense...Still...A Franchise QB is needed, and IMHO another year with Fitz will be yet another year wasted in the long run...We'll see though...it's not like I am enamored with the QB class of 2013 outside of Geno Smith...So...

[JM57]

HAHAHA!!!

 

You just said that Pennington, Fiedler and the Wildcat were successful. I seriously don't know if your joking or dead serious. And fwiw, Romo is absolutely horrendous. When it comes to clutch moments in games, Fitz is probably on par with Romo.

 

I thought this was a thread for INTELLIGENT football discussion but this thread is filled with mostly the same drivel as all the other threads.

 

You can't TEACH clutch. That's something you have or you don't. Its one of those "intangibles" everyone b**ches about hearing around draft time. Eli Manning is clutch. Derps along for 3 quarters but is superhuman down the stretch. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees...all elite, but also clutch. You can't instruct someone on a weekday how to lead a game winning drive and react to the atmosphere and shake off the nerves and whatever. That's just something people have a knack for.

 

Intelligent football discussion? Among schizophrenic Bills fans?

 

 

Fitz craps the bed week after week, and everyone in Buffalo (including Buddy Nix) is in full agreement that we desperately need a new quarterback. He puts up a good performance and suddenly he isn't a problem anymore. Give me a break.

 

 

> Week 1 against the Jets, Fitzpatrick's terrible throws were the main reason that we got into a big hole. 3 picks and he couldn't even throw for 200 yards with the Jets playing soft the entire 4th quarter.

 

> Week 5 against the 49ers - 125 yards passing, 0 tds, 1 pick and 3 points. Nothing more to say. You can't beat anyone with the quarterback playing this bad.

 

> Week 6 against the Titans - He had a decent game statistically, but threw the game-losing interception with 3 minutes left and a 6-point lead. Traditional Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

> Week 7 against the Texans - Fitz was up and down all day. The Bills failed to get in the endzone for the second time this season. 9 total points.

 

 

 

Fans are too worried about figuring out the BIGGEST problem on the team. One week it's the quarterback. The next week it's the linebackers. The next week it's the coaching. The next week it's Aaron Williams. The truth is, we have several problems. And it doesn't really matter if Fitz is contributing to more losses, or if Kelvin Sheppard is. We need to get better at both positions.

 

Here is the bottom line.

Even if Fitz isn't the worst player on the team, it's very hard to get a starting quarterback outside of the first round of the draft. Mid to late round picks rarely work out, and free agent options are almost always backups. Proven QBs are never available for trade - and when they are, they also require high draft picks in exchange.

Other positions are easier to find. For instance, good linebackers can be found almost every year in the 2nd-3rd round - and often later than that. There are frequently good free agent options, and teams are more willing to part with linebackers by trade.

 

Nice post here. I definitely don't think Fitz is the biggest problem on this team. That would be the defensive scheme, followed by CB2, the LBs, and SS, THEN QB. This team is 3-6 and scored 31 and 35 points in two losses where Fitz actually played well, up until those last throws to the McCourty twins. However if the DEFENSE DIDN'T ALLOW 38 OR 35 POINTS....he wouldn't be throwing in that situation.

 

They shouldn't have to rely on him to win games because he definitely isn't that type of QB. If this defense was just average, they could be 5-4 right now and sitting pretty as long as they won the majority of games down the stretch.

 

I just hope that Buddy uses some good judgment when it comes to filling the remaining holes on this team. CBs have a longggg learning curve in this league. don't draft another one to throw into the fire immediately. Find a vet to play opposite of Gilmore. Maybe Aaron Williams or DaNorris Searcy will be the guy who can play better than Wilson at SS. Same thing with your LBs. Maybe Sheppard makes that big step in year 3. If not, have a veteran who can slide inside there. Its not often you find a rookie LB outside of round 1 or 2 that can walk right in and play without being exploited.

[metzelaars_lives]

Sadly, everyone missed the point of my thread. Let me make a few things clear:

 

1. RYAN FITZPATRICK IS NOT THE LONG-TERM ANSWER AT QB. I never said he was. Here's what I believe may be the case however:

 

2. There may be enough talent on this football team that it may not be worth taking two steps back by drafting a Ryan Tannehill/Christian Ponder/Blaine Gabbert type of QB just for the sake of drafting a QB. A middle of the first round/top of the second round QB will NOT be better than Ryan Fitzpatrick next season. And if you do draft one of those guys and he takes a year and "grooms" behind Fitzpatrick, well then, you just took a year in Spiller/Wood/Levitre/Stevie Johnson/Byrd/Dareus/Mario Williams, etc's prime where you could have instead drafted a linebacker who could start and make an impact NOW and make yourself that much closer to contending for a playoff spot, which I still believe they're not all that far away from with any sort of defense whatsoever. Most importantly however:

 

3. If there is a LEGIT franchise QB in the first round, you take him. Period end of story.

 

4. I'm just not so sure there will be.

[mjt328]

Upgrading Fitz should be number ONE priority in the 2013 offseason.

 

1. If the right guy is in the draft, the Bills need to do everything in their power to get him. If it means passing on a more talented player at another position, draft the quarterback anyway. If it means reaching for him 2-3 rounds too early, then so be it. If it means selling the farm to trade up, then do that too. We cannot play around this year.

 

2. If the right guy is not in the draft, it's time to target someone by free agency or trade.

 

 

Somebody HAS to be available. The Bills cannot afford to pass again.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Well, I feel dumber now.

[Maury Ballstein]

 

 

 

 

I find the timing of this David Lee criticism ironic.

 

Fitz has probably thrown the ball better in the last two weeks than he has all season. I was thinking the opposite of you guys: that the months of trying to re-learn muscle memory was finally starting to pay off.

 

 

 

Chad Pennington had a very good career for a guy with very little talent and zero arm strength. Drew Brees is Chad Pennington with a decent arm.

 

Pennington was a finalist for NFL MVP one year and was twice Comeback Player of the Year. His career passer rating is above 90.

 

Jay Fiedler was an undrafted QB who spent 12 years in the NFL, had more TDs than INTs, and led his team to 3 10+ win seasons in 4 years as a starter.

 

As for Romo, Troy Aikman recently said that Romo "is a better quarterback than I was."

 

Former Pro Bowl Giants wideout Amani Toomer recently said that Romo was "the best quarterback in the NFC East."

 

I'm not gonna debate the issue but I will say that I think Romo gets a bit of a bad rap. He's certainly surrounded by a bunch of guys who underachieve in big moments. And I know a few Cowboys fans who don't think Romo is the problem.

 

Nice facts. I think it's funny a bills fan can laugh at Pennington and Romo really.

[metzelaars_lives]

Upgrading Fitz should be number ONE priority in the 2013 offseason.

 

1. If the right guy is in the draft, the Bills need to do everything in their power to get him. If it means passing on a more talented player at another position, draft the quarterback anyway. If it means reaching for him 2-3 rounds too early, then so be it. If it means selling the farm to trade up, then do that too. We cannot play around this year.

 

2. If the right guy is not in the draft, it's time to target someone by free agency or trade.

 

 

Somebody HAS to be available. The Bills cannot afford to pass again.

 

Do they though? Teams don't trade or otherwise make available franchise QB's. The only way we're ever getting THE GUY is the through the draft. Buddy Nix is not going to take a middle-of-the-road QB prospect just to appease the fanbase. We need three starting LB's.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Byrd is a top-5 safety in this league. It's amazing how posters on this board have such a strong love/hate relationship with players depending on whether the team wins or loses. I love the number of posts declaring that Kyle Williams has no heart or is the only player with heart on defense, for example.

 

If anyone ever even suggested or hinted in any way Kyle Williams has no heart, they could only be talking about the niners WR or the wrong williams or the wrong sport or the wrong planet.

 

Levitre is priority 1. Byrd 2. Unless woods up, then he is 1.

[John Cocktosten]

After that game, I am not 100% certain that drafting a QB in the 1st round is an absolute slam dunk, lay-up, no-brainer. I was prior to the game, but after watching Fitzpatrick not only play a pretty close to perfect game until the pick- which yes, his clutch abilities are extremely suspect- but also to tell Spikes "F*** you man," that was freaking awesome. I STILL BELIEVE that drafting a QB in the 1st round is probably the conservative thing to do, but man, if they had any kind of defense whatsoever, they win that game going away. If they do in fact draft a QB in the ist round and pass up on a stud LB, does that make them a better team next season? I think the answer to that questikon is very simple: if it's the guy you think will be the franchise guy for the next ten years, then it doesn't matter. You take him. But if not? Buddy Nix is too smart to draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB. Just playing devil's advocate, I think there is still an argument to be made that you can wing it with Fitz for one more season and see if you can't get a new defensive coordinator, draft a Teo and see what happens. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

 

Is this the same guy who gave Fitz 60 million, hired Chan Gailey and has gone 3 straight drafts without drafting the most important position in all of sports? Nix doesn't even sound smart. Please stop giving him credit. The best players other than Spiller were all here before he got here.

Edited November 14, 2012 by John Cocktosten