stuckincincy Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 You are right; Hitler was an occultist! He oppressed the churches in his reign of terror all right... bad example. Islam is NOT a wicked, vile, and revolting religion. You just don't understand it, and that is why a lot of Americans are ignorant on the subject. I can cite SO MANY examples of atrocities and foul deeds committed in the name of Christianity that are on par with the RADICAL FUNDAMENTALIST Islamic people. You confuse the extremists with the REAL Islam. I saw an interview today with a Muslim man in France saying that the Muslims in Iraq that are hostage takers are criminals and are NOT true Muslims. He is RIGHT! These guys are scum who use religion to bond with other scum for a common cause. Simple. 14329[/snapback] Riddle me this, as the saying goes. When is the last time you have seen an Islamic "outreach" program? When have you seen Islamics contribute untold billions year after year to travel around the globe and set up clinics, schools, build infrastructure for the downtrodden? When have you seen other religions set up "schools" for the express of indoctrination of children to turn them into vicious killers? Where do you find organized states that put women into abject degredation and misery while claiming that that is God's will? When have you last seen an Islamic nation add to medical advancements? Technological advancements? Any advancement at all? If you wish to make moral equivalents, compare 700 A.D. societies.
XXX XXXX Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Nice people, these...Why does anyone still not understand what this "religion" is all about? [Hint: It aint PEACE!] 14143[/snapback] Notice how a regional Muslim community leader was brought in to negotiate; it is not the religion which is the problem but the power-hungry leaders who decided the quick way to power is taking hostages.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Well I guess I was to nice to to a moronic liberal.What I said was if the dont voice thier opposition to the Islamic radicals most people will include them in the group of radicals .Idid not asay they have to fight them .Besides you wouldnt know anyting about fighting as you never had any combat experience and most likely no military experience.Here is to you and yours :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: 14369[/snapback] FIRST, it was a FRICKIN COMPLIMENT! Are you sooo lost that you can't see that I thought your response was excellent?!?! SECOND, I'm in the Navy, 7 years so far.... I missed combat experience because our Seal Team didn't go to Mosul. Don't assume; it might bite you in the a$$. I'm not going to insult. I took a deep breath. I CANNOT BELIEVE what I read!!! I had a positive response, and he goes ape! UNBELIEVEABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 `Putting immanent causation of this event on the religion of Islam is a mistake; the Muslims that took this action weren’t motivated to do so solely by the Islamic religion. They didn’t, in a vacuum, wake up and decide to take hostages, with no other reasoning but the teachings of Islam. Just as members of the IRA didn’t wake up one morning and decide to commit acts of terror against the British, based on solely on the Catholic faith. There were, and are, a lot more factors in the actions of both of these groups. If you are going to make the argument that Islam is a violent religion based on the despicable (and inexcusable) actions of a few; then you must make the same statement about Catholicism. The atrocities committed by the IRA didn’t lead me to believe that Catholicism is “not a peaceful religion”, nor should the act of Islamic terrorists lead anyone to a similar conclusion about the Islamic faith. 14567[/snapback] ANOTHER advocate of REASON and LOGIC. Thank you. I was trying to get that across, but it didn't go anywhere! *throws up hands*
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Riddle me this, as the saying goes. When is the last time you have seen an Islamic "outreach" program? When have you seen Islamics contribute untold billions year after year to travel around the globe and set up clinics, schools, build infrastructure for the downtrodden? When have you seen other religions set up "schools" for the express of indoctrination of children to turn them into vicious killers? Where do you find organized states that put women into abject degredation and misery while claiming that that is God's will? When have you last seen an Islamic nation add to medical advancements? Technological advancements? Any advancement at all? If you wish to make moral equivalents, compare 700 A.D. societies. 14616[/snapback] You don't SEE them, because you don't LOOK for them, or see them on the evening news! You need to TRAVEL to foreign countries and to see what is going on in them, and then you'll READ more and LEARN more than you will EVER learn by sitting at home, watching Brit Hume, etc yap on and on about Scott Peterson or the Convention! Catholics set up schools for the training of eliminating Turks in the Aegean, French Huguenots during the wars in France, taught radical priests in Spain to torture non believers during the Spanish Inquisition... I don't need to go further; history is on my side in this arguement. Abject degradation has happened throughout the centuries.. it is NOTHING new, LONG BEFORE ISLAM had even been BORN. Islamic nations don't HAVE to prove their worth through advancements... they aren't the richest countries in the world. They are too busy trying to survive, and keep Israel from dominating the region.
stuckincincy Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Exiled...this is not 700 AD. But I am impressed that a liberal has read history...interpretation notwithstanding. Have some beer. I am.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Exiled...this is not 700 AD. But I am impressed that a liberal has read history...interpretation notwithstanding. Have some beer. I am. 14687[/snapback] I'm not Exiled, but ok...! I'm a History major, BTW... I love to learn
stuckincincy Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 I'm not Exiled, but ok...! I'm a History major, BTW... I love to learn 14695[/snapback] Sorry, Rabid. Flat-out mistake by me. History major? That is excellent! I mean that most sincerely.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 `Putting immanent causation of this event on the religion of Islam is a mistake; the Muslims that took this action weren’t motivated to do so solely by the Islamic religion. They didn’t, in a vacuum, wake up and decide to take hostages, with no other reasoning but the teachings of Islam. Just as members of the IRA didn’t wake up one morning and decide to commit acts of terror against the British, based on solely on the Catholic faith. There were, and are, a lot more factors in the actions of both of these groups. If you are going to make the argument that Islam is a violent religion based on the despicable (and inexcusable) actions of a few; then you must make the same statement about Catholicism. The atrocities committed by the IRA didn’t lead me to believe that Catholicism is “not a peaceful religion”, nor should the act of Islamic terrorists lead anyone to a similar conclusion about the Islamic faith. 14567[/snapback] Good example -- better than mine -- and well stated. Fundamentalism + marginalization (or at least the impression of it) breeds terrorism
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Sorry, Rabid. Flat-out mistake by me. History major? That is excellent! I mean that most sincerely. 14722[/snapback] Thanks. I want to teach history in high school after I get out of the Navy, and NEVER run for ANY public office in my lifetime. I'm too wound up to be electable. I got this thirst for knowledge after my dad took me all over the country, and then I got to go all over the world, and now I am over here in Turkey experiencing living in a Muslim country, so I meet a LOT of really good people here. What changed my life about the Middle East was a book I read by a Jewish author on the complete history of the region... It was right before the Sharon election, and when I read all of the things he had wanted to do/had done, I knew if he was elected, the region would flare up like a roman candle. I HATE being right.
Alaska Darin Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Years ago I read the Jewish and Muslim "bibles" - it's really striking how similiar the two are. The difference between the 2 "religions" is how how each has evolved over the past few centuries. The world would be alot simpler if leadership could keep their hands to themselves.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Years ago I read the Jewish and Muslim "bibles" - it's really striking how similiar the two are. The difference between the 2 "religions" is how how each has evolved over the past few centuries. The world would be alot simpler if leadership could keep their hands to themselves. 14852[/snapback] Indeed. Organized religion's greatest failing might lie in the nature of being organized. What happened to being deeply spiritual on a personal level? So many religious people feel the need to impose their systems of belief on others, it's hard to even believe there is anything spiritual going on in these heads.
Alaska Darin Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Indeed. Organized religion's greatest failing might lie in the nature of being organized. What happened to being deeply spiritual on a personal level? So many religious people feel the need to impose their systems of belief on others, it's hard to even believe there is anything spiritual going on in these heads. 14956[/snapback] I really don't think there is at the highest levels. There is a distinct difference between spirituality and religion, which we witness all too often.
DC Tom Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Riddle me this, as the saying goes. When is the last time you have seen an Islamic "outreach" program? 14616[/snapback] Does the Red Crescent count? When have you seen Islamics contribute untold billions year after year to travel around the globe and set up clinics, schools, build infrastructure for the downtrodden? You're kidding, right? Friggin' bin Laden himself was reknowned for this in Sudan and Afghanistan. As I recall, his donations (to non-terrorist causes) are near to nine figures. Charitable contribution is a big deal in Islam...one of the Five Pillars that gets you into Paradise. When have you seen other religions set up "schools" for the express of indoctrination of children to turn them into vicious killers? North Irleand (Catholic), WWII Japan (Shinto), Lebanese Christians, give me time and I can think of others. Where do you find organized states that put women into abject degredation and misery while claiming that that is God's will? Oh...pretty much all over. China, for example...where the practices of foot binding and killing female babies aren't exactly uncommon, even to this day. Not just women either...the Indian caste system, for example. Abject degredation of people based on abstract ideas is fairly common. When have you last seen an Islamic nation add to medical advancements? Technological advancements? Any advancement at all? Do the Petronas Towers count as a technological advancement (engineering achievement - tallest buildings in the world for a while)? Otherwise...you got me. I'd probably have to go back to the Ottomans under Suleiman to find something.
stuckincincy Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Does the Red Crescent count?You're kidding, right? Friggin' bin Laden himself was reknowned for this in Sudan and Afghanistan. As I recall, his donations (to non-terrorist causes) are near to nine figures. Charitable contribution is a big deal in Islam...one of the Five Pillars that gets you into Paradise. North Irleand (Catholic), WWII Japan (Shinto), Lebanese Christians, give me time and I can think of others. Oh...pretty much all over. China, for example...where the practices of foot binding and killing female babies aren't exactly uncommon, even to this day. Not just women either...the Indian caste system, for example. Abject degredation of people based on abstract ideas is fairly common. Do the Petronas Towers count as a technological advancement (engineering achievement - tallest buildings in the world for a while)? Otherwise...you got me. I'd probably have to go back to the Ottomans under Suleiman to find something. 15000[/snapback] Tom, I do not know how to quote and break it up topic-by-topic, so... 1) Red Crescent. See also your friendly local ambulance service. Ever seen Red Crescent outside a country of origin? An AIDS clinic in Africa? Peace Corps or equivalent? 2) It's called "How to make Your Subjects beholden". The relief, the charity only - only extends to those you need to placate to maintain control. Help a poor chap outside your sphere - uh-uh. 3) Other "camps" such as you refer to? Sure happened. Overseas attacks by those - not so much. 4) Agreed. So I should clap-clap-clap? 5) Towers. Wonder who was the A&E firm? Milans. MiGs. MRI's. Aramco. and so on.
DC Tom Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Tom, I do not know how to quote and break it up topic-by-topic, so... 1) Red Crescent. See also your friendly local ambulance service. Ever seen Red Crescent outside a country of origin? An AIDS clinic in Africa? Peace Corps or equivalent? No, I was actually asking if they would count. I wasn't sure what you meant by "outreach" program. 2) It's called "How to make Your Subjects beholden". The relief, the charity only - only extends to those you need to placate to maintain control. Help a poor chap outside your sphere - uh-uh. No, it's not. As I understand it, that would be specifically against Koranic teachings. The purpose of charity is charity. Now, the potential for perversion is there...just as I'm sure tithes were abused by the Vatican and Christian nobility in old Europe. But of the charitable donations you'll find in the Western press by wealthy Muslims, the vast majority are for humanitarian or religious (and non-terrorist) purposes. Including bin Laden's investment in the Sudanese infrastructure, which doesn't appear to have ultimately reaped him much benefit. And charity is a Koranic requirement for ALL Muslims, not just the rich ones (I believe the requirement is 10% of your annual income). So even people who have no one to placate are still required to be charitable. The "control" argument is a non-starter. I will concede, however, that most if not all of the "valid" (i.e. non-terrorist) charitable contributions never leave the Islamic world. But then, most Catholic charitable contributions don't leave the Catholic world, either, or Buddhist leave the Buddhist world...religions support themselves, not others. 3) Other "camps" such as you refer to? Sure happened. Overseas attacks by those - not so much. Nope. Inter- and intra-national terrorism seems to pretty much be an outgrowth of Arab nationalism. And Communism...but that, depending on your point of view, is either a religion unto itself or antithetical to religion, hence I didn't include the Khmer Rouge, Maoism, etc. 4) Agreed. So I should clap-clap-clap? Awww, and here's stuckincincy come down with a case of the clap. You should get that treated. 5) Towers. Wonder who was the A&E firm? Milans. MiGs. MRI's. Aramco. and so on. 15030[/snapback] Good question, actually. Apparently...everyone. The structural engineers and prime contractor were Malaysian, and apparently Islamic. And even so...I'm sure the Gulf states have made significant advancements in oil technologies...
_BiB_ Posted September 1, 2004 Posted September 1, 2004 Interesting discussion. For a change. I so love it when folks do homework. But tom, that truly is a bad bait on the oil tech...
Captain America Posted September 2, 2004 Posted September 2, 2004 When the knife is held to the throat of the liberal and its getting closer every day, then and only maybe will they believe that Isalm wants all non believers dead.
DC Tom Posted September 2, 2004 Posted September 2, 2004 No, I was actually asking if they would count. I wasn't sure what you meant by "outreach" program.No, it's not. As I understand it, that would be specifically against Koranic teachings. The purpose of charity is charity. Now, the potential for perversion is there...just as I'm sure tithes were abused by the Vatican and Christian nobility in old Europe. But of the charitable donations you'll find in the Western press by wealthy Muslims, the vast majority are for humanitarian or religious (and non-terrorist) purposes. Including bin Laden's investment in the Sudanese infrastructure, which doesn't appear to have ultimately reaped him much benefit. And charity is a Koranic requirement for ALL Muslims, not just the rich ones (I believe the requirement is 10% of your annual income). So even people who have no one to placate are still required to be charitable. The "control" argument is a non-starter. I will concede, however, that most if not all of the "valid" (i.e. non-terrorist) charitable contributions never leave the Islamic world. But then, most Catholic charitable contributions don't leave the Catholic world, either, or Buddhist leave the Buddhist world...religions support themselves, not others. Nope. Inter- and intra-national terrorism seems to pretty much be an outgrowth of Arab nationalism. And Communism...but that, depending on your point of view, is either a religion unto itself or antithetical to religion, hence I didn't include the Khmer Rouge, Maoism, etc. Awww, and here's stuckincincy come down with a case of the clap. You should get that treated. Good question, actually. Apparently...everyone. The structural engineers and prime contractor were Malaysian, and apparently Islamic. And even so...I'm sure the Gulf states have made significant advancements in oil technologies... 15042[/snapback] Well...as far as Islamic advancements in the past 500 years or so, he's probably right. Oil tech was just a WAG on my part. Though I just read something that I can best describe as an allusion to a rumor that Muslim "medical science" (around 1800, such as it was back then) first hit upon the admittedly bright idea of encasing fractured limbs in plaster of paris. That's got to count for something...at least, as soon as I manage to confirm it as more than my imagination...
MichFan Posted September 2, 2004 Posted September 2, 2004 The Muslims need to take heed soon. Plan A appears to be going into terrorist/repressed countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq and providing people the room they need to promote freedom and some semblence of democracy. If these countries fail to take advantage of the opportunity granted them, how much longer will it be until America gives Russia free reign to wipe out of the Chechans, Israelis a free pass to bomb the heck out of the Palestinians, and perhaps we justify bombing the heck out of the Syrians and Iranians with much less regard to civilian casualties and winning hearts and minds.
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