If you think you hate the Patriots now, listen to this...

[Mr. WEO]

Mangini is a weasel, no doubt. As is Canseco. But they revealed what the media wouldn't or couldn't...until about a decade later in (your allusion to) "A Game of Shadows," which came out in March of 2006. Real cutting-edge stuff there! Canseco admitted steroid use and rampant use in MLB on "60 Minutes" over a year before that book even came out, and had been talking about it since his arrest in 2003.

 

As for the walk through tape, yes, that couldn't have existed. It's not like Goodell hurriedly destroyed all the damaging signal-taping evidence. Oh, wait a minute...

 

They reported on Giambi in 2004, a year before Canseco published his book and appeared on 60 min. Their stuff was cutting edge stuff. You may recall they broke the award winning reporting on the BALCO scandal, which preceded all of this? Nah. Doesn't fit your revisionist history, nor does the fact that Walsh had no such tape.

[GRONK SPIKE!]

Not every coach, but there is no doubt in my mind that Dallas cheated.

Dallas did do what we did, we didn't film practices, we filmed during games. We filmed things that 60,000 people could see clearly in person.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/blitz/index.php/2008/02/23/jimmy-johnson-thinks-spygate-is-overblown/

 

 

 

Somebody was filming practices before the Super Bowl, but it wasn't the Pats.

http://www.nytimes.c...le-is-fine.html

Club and league officials said a telescope was clearly visible in the window, according to a pool report, and that 15 minutes later, a person appeared at the window, and then vanished.

Article was written in 2002 and quotes league officials.

Edited November 29, 2012 by GRONK SPIKE!

[syhuang]

Somebody was filming practices before the Super Bowl, but it wasn't the Pats.

http://www.nytimes.c...le-is-fine.html

 

Article was written in 2002 and quotes league officials.

 

The article only says something in a third-floor window of a house next to the field during Cheatriots' practice, it doesn't prove cheatriots did not film Rams' practice in any way.

 

Cheatriots might or might not film Rams' practice, but showing something during Cheatriots' practice doesn't prove anything during Rams' practice.

 

It looks like you are trying to imply typical Cheatriots fans' response (1):

 

(1) Others may cheat so cheating by cheatriots is okay and a honorable thing to do.

(2) Cheatriots' record after spygate means they didn't cheat. (Hello, being a good team and cheating aren't mutually exclusive. A top 5 student could cheat to become #1. Being a top 5 student doesn't mean he doesn't cheat.)

Edited November 29, 2012 by syhuang

[GRONK SPIKE!]

The article only says something in a third-floor window of a house next to the field during Cheatriots' practice, it doesn't prove cheatriots did not film Rams' practice in any way.

 

Cheatriots might or might not film Rams' practice, but showing something during Cheatriots' practice doesn't prove anything during Rams' practice.

 

It looks like you are trying to imply typical Cheatriots fans' response (1):

 

(1) Others may cheat so cheating by cheatriots is okay and a honorable thing to do.

(2) Cheatriots' record after spygate means they didn't cheat. (Hello, being a good team and cheating aren't mutually exclusive. A top 5 student could cheat to become #1. Being a top 5 student doesn't mean he doesn't cheat.)

 

There is evidence that the Patriots were spied on, no evidence that the Rams were. If there were Patriots employees spying on the Rams do you think the same league sources would have stated that? Your arguments have no evidence backing them and are the same ones that have been debunked over the last five years. All you do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell cheatriots cheatriots to avoid facing evidence.

[syhuang]

There is evidence that the Patriots were spied on, no evidence that the Rams were. If there were Patriots employees spying on the Rams do you think the same league sources would have stated that? Your arguments have no evidence backing them and are the same ones that have been debunked over the last five years. All you do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell cheatriots cheatriots to avoid facing evidence.

 

Like I said, cheatriots might or might not film Rams' practice. But showing something during cheatriots practice doesn't prove or disprove anything during Rams' practice. Logic 101.

[MattM]

There are many ways to cheat (for the millionth time, go look at the NYT article from the May after Spygate in which two members of the NFL competition committee said it was the Pats* over and over they got complaints about). For ex., what do folks think of the fact (and it is a fact) that this season the Pats* have had two players suspended for PED violations. Not even the usual suspects either (the aging Pats* vets, a la Harrison, who go there to "gain an extra step), but a couple of young guys. Perhaps some teams are just a bit more comfortable "pushing the envelope", no?

[Mr. WEO]

According to Mr. O'Leary, all of the owners had a meeting behind closed doors in which they discussed the consequences of Spygate. Since the NFL employs revenue sharing and several of the teams are worth over a billion dollars the owners allegedly decided to toe the company line and that it would be in their own best interests to make the whole thing go away. Can you imagine the fortunes of the owners that would be lost if the fans stopped watching games? Not just the owners' fortunes but the fortunes of sports networks, news media, players, merchandisers, etc.

 

Also, if the Pats were to have stunk after Spygate, it would have made their cheating look worse. You have to remember that the NFL determined that the taping of other teams signals did not effect the outcomes of the games. The next year, the Pats went 16-0 beating up on teams with huge scores. This may have been done partly because of pampered boy Belichik's arrogance, but it was enabled by the NFL because it helped make folks think "Hey, these guys really are good. They really didn't have to cheat." Since free agency, it has become almost impossible for NFL teams to build long tenured dynasties. The Pats are the only team where it does not seem to matter who their players are or who there assistant coaches and coordinators are. Year in and year out, they achieve the same incredible results. Something is not right. Again, I encourage you to read the book. I am not good at writing book reports, so if you are interested in the truth you will have to find out more for yourself. You can then determine what you want to believe. As fans, we are entitled to our own opinions as to what the Pats did to the rest of the league and what their legacy should be.

 

 

 

So, the owners response to the cheating scandal was to allow NE to continue to cheat in order for it to look like they didn't really need to cheat and that the cheating didn't really help NE at all? Are you making this up as you go along? How tight of a corner will you paint yourself?

 

Didn't the Colts have a "dynasty" for the majority of the P Manning years? This despite having Tony Dungy as coach and their own Curtis Modkins-type guy as OC? They had to be cheating too, then, right? Oh, wait--they had Howard Mudd, the man identified by Jimmy Johnson as the Thomas Edison of illegal defensive signal videotaping. What was "Mr. O'Leary's" comment on that?

 

There are many ways to cheat (for the millionth time, go look at the NYT article from the May after Spygate in which two members of the NFL competition committee said it was the Pats* over and over they got complaints about). For ex., what do folks think of the fact (and it is a fact) that this season the Pats* have had two players suspended for PED violations. Not even the usual suspects either (the aging Pats* vets, a la Harrison, who go there to "gain an extra step), but a couple of young guys. Perhaps some teams are just a bit more comfortable "pushing the envelope", no?

 

The Seahawks just had half of their starting DBs suspended at the same time for PEDs. What are your thoughts on that? Is that team handing out the PEDs also, like the pats?

[filthymcnasty08]

Which of these questions is a "strawman argument"?

 

 

 

You read the book. These are simple questions. They need logical answers. Why don't you just tell us the answers that the book gave you? Should be easy. All you have said so far is "it's a billion dollar industry". Everyone accepts the fact that they were caught cheating. The "Billion dollar industry" wasn't harmed in the least.

 

To persuade anyone, you have to explain how the book explains why Jerry Jones and Al Davis and Ralph Wilson are/were really OK with all of this. "Read the book" isn't an explanation. You should be able to defend your position, or at least explain in some detail, after having read the book.

 

Convince me they are still cheating and everyone is in on it--based on what you read.

 

And, of course you'll have to explain how, with the publication of this bombshell book for all of the public to read, the NFL hasn't lost all of it's fans, the teams haven't lost all of their value, the TV networks haven't lost all of their viewers? Doesn't this all have to happen now, based on your logic as to why the NFL has kept ll this "secret" to this point?

 

 

So you are saying that the NFL did such a great job of presenting the facts to the media and fan base that everyone went home satisfied - integrity restored? This was a natural progression huh? The league Commissioner ordered the evidence destroyed, fact. The owners met behind closed doors and the consensus was to damage control the hell out of this thing. Why? Right there Al Davis and Ralph could have held it all up and protested, A-hole Jerry Jones too. These men are business men first fans second. As you would expect from a group of 30 buisnessmen threatened to lose a fortune, they agreed to make it go away. Why? - because it was big enough that the collateral damage from a full blown investigation/media circus would extend into irreperable damage to their franchises and the integrity of the game - the national passtime. Nothing scares the sht out of owners like loss of profits and if you couple that with the erosion of the principal and the basis for their profits, and these guys will do anything for that not to happen. These men have monster ego's and I truly think their minds were blown as to the science of what was being perpetrated - they didn't want egg on their own faces publicly that the game extended into areas they couldn't conceive. Throw in the power of the television networks that pay the NFL a gajillion dollars a year for the rights to broadcast their product and make 100X that on advertising, throw in the many other businesses build off and around the NFL etc etc. Basically, its a juggernaut that prints money for a lot of powerful people. The NFL is one of the only American businesses that is free from anticompetitve laws....they are a LEGAL monopoly. This comes from the government.

 

Now you're a singular player, coach or investigative reporter.....and you feel that something isn't right.....and you want to do something about it.....you're taking on the weight and full force of all that I mention above....you better have your ducks in a row, legally speaking. Oh, and I hope you didn't have any career aspirations - because you're done and the media is ruining you. Now that there's a "precedent" and punishment was delivered, you also would have insurmountable reasonable doubt to contend with. Basically nobody but the league and the government has the means to make a case and have it even considered. Why would they?

 

Bravo to those that did try, as well as the Author. Mr Weo - do you see this mans book being promoted in any way shape or form other than some word of mouth? Did a major publisher back his book? I bought the thing off the Authors website, there is no marketing machine behind it. Its' not on any display tables at Barnes and Noble. I can't even get you to pick up the book...where is this widespread distribution? Are you saying that if the entire NFL fanbase read this book, they wouldn't change the way they view the sport because I cant tell you why Jerry Jones didn't protest loudly? On the contrary, it's a pretty convincing book but those that stand to lose are also those that would do the promoting. Media is pure conglomerate....those that own the networks are part of the same companies that own radio, print and billboards...if they don't want something in the forefront, they ignore it. If they don't pay attention to it, it goes away.

 

That's what the media and the league have adopted as the stance on spygate. They can now say, hey we looked into that....punished those involved, and we moved on. And most of us did move on - funny how that happens. Like steroids right? Nobody uses steroids anymore because there were investigations, people got caught....integrity restored? The truth is you roll the dice when you take roids....and players get caught all the time. The league calls it "substance abuse policy" so they dont have to use the names of the drugs and hurt the fans. I think the rampant cheating and owner conspiracy that you say I am alluding to is way more subtle than that.....and its called "home field advantage".....everyone knows there are certain factors outside of travel that contribute to a HFA. Are home teams blatantly running around with cameras in the practices and putting huge boom microphones in the sky boxes? no....the same way that A-Rod isn't pulling out a fukng needle in the middle of Yankee Stadium and shooting roids in his ass. But clearly, he's grown into a brick house from a wiry kid and hits the hell out of the ball (well, used to). Why isn't the Red Sox manager up in arms every time the Yanks beat them - knowing that ARod is using roids? It's accepted and tolerated among those inside the game - to a degree. Like HFA. Everyone's HFA is different....and some may roll the dice in certain ways. Others, like the Pats have raised it to an art form.

 

 

Gillette carries a HFA for the Pats that mathmatically challenges reality. Peyton Manning wouldn't discuss the game in the locker room there...he held his conversations with his OC in the tunnel. Remember, they got caught cheating at an away game (Jets). Ballsy stuff when you read all that needs to happen without a hitch. The risk factor goes down 1000x in their home park, their rules, their security, their structure. They also have Ernie Adams.

 

They have a literal genius/spook behind it all that can split second call a play to exploit the defensive signal that he just stole and decoded. I think if another team wanted to do it like the Pats do, the door is open - roll the dice. Do you have someone that sophisticated with X's and O's? Is your "system" refined and matured like theirs? Do you have the perfect system QB? Can you trust all of those involved not to tell? Is your Coach considered elite otherwise? Is your owner ass buddy's with the Commissioner like Kraft? I think one hair is out of place and your risk factors go to infinity.

 

Do people hate them, yes. Players coaches and owners probably cant stand them. maybe even the Commissioner too....dont know. But does their hate for them outrun your love for those royalty checks? Who ***** in their own fluffy white perfect bed? If you pursue pure justice, you do so at the risk of EVERYTHING. So, they have to rely on those that make and enforce the rules and field their teams, play the games in spite of some doubt. They have to trust that if something was so skewed, it would present itself and justice would be served. This author is postulating that something is skewed still but everyone that can do something about it is either in denial or accepting it as part of the game.

 

The kid that once held the camera said it when asked if it's still being done - "about half as much" was his answer. HFA.

[SwampD]

Dallas did do what we did, we didn't film practices, we filmed during games. We filmed things that 60,000 people could see clearly in person.

http://www.bostonher...e-is-overblown/

 

 

Um, I don't really know how to respond to this post. I guess I'll just say thank you for posting a link in which Jimmy Johnson admits that he cheated.

[MattM]

So, the owners response to the cheating scandal was to allow NE to continue to cheat in order for it to look like they didn't really need to cheat and that the cheating didn't really help NE at all? Are you making this up as you go along? How tight of a corner will you paint yourself?

 

Didn't the Colts have a "dynasty" for the majority of the P Manning years? This despite having Tony Dungy as coach and their own Curtis Modkins-type guy as OC? They had to be cheating too, then, right? Oh, wait--they had Howard Mudd, the man identified by Jimmy Johnson as the Thomas Edison of illegal defensive signal videotaping. What was "Mr. O'Leary's" comment on that?

 

 

 

The Seahawks just had half of their starting DBs suspended at the same time for PEDs. What are your thoughts on that? Is that team handing out the PEDs also, like the pats?

 

Perhaps Seattle is one of those "more casual" teams when it comes to PEDs and cheating. As noted, different teams may be at all different points along a "comfort" spectrum on that issue. But even so they don't have the penumbra hanging over them of all of the other baggage the Pats* do, such as Spygate, the Competition Committee quotes, multiple coaches accusing them of headsets going out at odd times, other PED issues (like Rodney--only caught for a drug not currently tested for because he ordered it in his own name), bizarre officiating in their favor in a large number of games over the years, etc.

[filthymcnasty08]

Perhaps Seattle is one of those "more casual" teams when it comes to PEDs and cheating. As noted, different teams may be at all different points along a "comfort" spectrum on that issue. But even so they don't have the penumbra hanging over them of all of the other baggage the Pats* do, such as Spygate, the Competition Committee quotes, multiple coaches accusing them of headsets going out at odd times, other PED issues (like Rodney--only caught for a drug not currently tested for because he ordered it in his own name), bizarre officiating in their favor in a large number of games over the years, etc.

 

I wouldn't put a thing past Carroll.....the way he fled the trouble at USC. It was scary how fast and the manner in which he dropped and ran.

[boltuprite]

Sour grapes. The Patriots are a good team with a great coach and a talented QB. That's why they win.

[syhuang]

Sour grapes. The Patriots are a good team with a great coach and a talented QB. That's why they win.

 

Being a good team and cheating aren't mutually exclusive. A top 5 student could cheat to become #1. Being a top 5 student doesn't mean he doesn't cheat and doesn't make cheating ok for him.

[Roger Goodell]

Sour grapes. The Patriots are a good team with a great coach and a talented QB. That's why they win.

 

That's correct. The New England Patriots are a shining example of an oustanding NFL franchise.

[peterpan]

Jimmy Johnson has always stated that in the week leading up to the Super Bowl, he was in a bar having a drink with someone. He then looked up at the TV and saw a news report showing the Bills running a shovel pass in practice. That's why Dallas was ready for it when they were about to punch it in when the game was still close.

 

Jimmy Johnson is full of ****.

 

He wants us to bilieve that even though the Bills had never run a shovel pass all year, they were going to put it in during an open practice with the media present and cameras rolling?

 

Jerry got his rings.

 

Im pretty sure I saw a copy of that newscast where Jim is doing shovel passes to Thurman, with a reporter in the foreground. It was on some ESPN Documentary about the Cowboys.

 

But the patsies still cheated. Everyone knows it. And it was very serious stuff too, not the fluff Gooddell tried to makes us belive. You don't destroy evidence if you don't want to hide something. Just ask Nixon.

 

IMO, the Patsies wouldn't have won a single SB without cheating, and all their wins deserve big fat ****

Edited November 29, 2012 by peterpan

[Mr. WEO]

So you are saying that the NFL did such a great job of presenting the facts to the media and fan base that everyone went home satisfied - integrity restored? This was a natural progression huh? The league Commissioner ordered the evidence destroyed, fact. The owners met behind closed doors and the consensus was to damage control the hell out of this thing. Why? Right there Al Davis and Ralph could have held it all up and protested, A-hole Jerry Jones too. These men are business men first fans second. As you would expect from a group of 30 buisnessmen threatened to lose a fortune, they agreed to make it go away. Why? - because it was big enough that the collateral damage from a full blown investigation/media circus would extend into irreperable damage to their franchises and the integrity of the game - the national passtime. Nothing scares the sht out of owners like loss of profits and if you couple that with the erosion of the principal and the basis for their profits, and these guys will do anything for that not to happen. These men have monster ego's and I truly think their minds were blown as to the science of what was being perpetrated - they didn't want egg on their own faces publicly that the game extended into areas they couldn't conceive. Throw in the power of the television networks that pay the NFL a gajillion dollars a year for the rights to broadcast their product and make 100X that on advertising, throw in the many other businesses build off and around the NFL etc etc. Basically, its a juggernaut that prints money for a lot of powerful people. The NFL is one of the only American businesses that is free from anticompetitve laws....they are a LEGAL monopoly. This comes from the government.

 

Now you're a singular player, coach or investigative reporter.....and you feel that something isn't right.....and you want to do something about it.....you're taking on the weight and full force of all that I mention above....you better have your ducks in a row, legally speaking. Oh, and I hope you didn't have any career aspirations - because you're done and the media is ruining you. Now that there's a "precedent" and punishment was delivered, you also would have insurmountable reasonable doubt to contend with. Basically nobody but the league and the government has the means to make a case and have it even considered. Why would they?

 

Bravo to those that did try, as well as the Author. Mr Weo - do you see this mans book being promoted in any way shape or form other than some word of mouth? Did a major publisher back his book? I bought the thing off the Authors website, there is no marketing machine behind it. Its' not on any display tables at Barnes and Noble. I can't even get you to pick up the book...where is this widespread distribution? Are you saying that if the entire NFL fanbase read this book, they wouldn't change the way they view the sport because I cant tell you why Jerry Jones didn't protest loudly? On the contrary, it's a pretty convincing book but those that stand to lose are also those that would do the promoting. Media is pure conglomerate....those that own the networks are part of the same companies that own radio, print and billboards...if they don't want something in the forefront, they ignore it. If they don't pay attention to it, it goes away.

 

That's what the media and the league have adopted as the stance on spygate. They can now say, hey we looked into that....punished those involved, and we moved on. And most of us did move on - funny how that happens. Like steroids right? Nobody uses steroids anymore because there were investigations, people got caught....integrity restored? The truth is you roll the dice when you take roids....and players get caught all the time. The league calls it "substance abuse policy" so they dont have to use the names of the drugs and hurt the fans. I think the rampant cheating and owner conspiracy that you say I am alluding to is way more subtle than that.....and its called "home field advantage".....everyone knows there are certain factors outside of travel that contribute to a HFA. Are home teams blatantly running around with cameras in the practices and putting huge boom microphones in the sky boxes? no....the same way that A-Rod isn't pulling out a fukng needle in the middle of Yankee Stadium and shooting roids in his ass. But clearly, he's grown into a brick house from a wiry kid and hits the hell out of the ball (well, used to). Why isn't the Red Sox manager up in arms every time the Yanks beat them - knowing that ARod is using roids? It's accepted and tolerated among those inside the game - to a degree. Like HFA. Everyone's HFA is different....and some may roll the dice in certain ways. Others, like the Pats have raised it to an art form.

 

 

Gillette carries a HFA for the Pats that mathmatically challenges reality. Peyton Manning wouldn't discuss the game in the locker room there...he held his conversations with his OC in the tunnel. Remember, they got caught cheating at an away game (Jets). Ballsy stuff when you read all that needs to happen without a hitch. The risk factor goes down 1000x in their home park, their rules, their security, their structure. They also have Ernie Adams.

 

They have a literal genius/spook behind it all that can split second call a play to exploit the defensive signal that he just stole and decoded. I think if another team wanted to do it like the Pats do, the door is open - roll the dice. Do you have someone that sophisticated with X's and O's? Is your "system" refined and matured like theirs? Do you have the perfect system QB? Can you trust all of those involved not to tell? Is your Coach considered elite otherwise? Is your owner ass buddy's with the Commissioner like Kraft? I think one hair is out of place and your risk factors go to infinity.

 

Do people hate them, yes. Players coaches and owners probably cant stand them. maybe even the Commissioner too....dont know. But does their hate for them outrun your love for those royalty checks? Who ***** in their own fluffy white perfect bed? If you pursue pure justice, you do so at the risk of EVERYTHING. So, they have to rely on those that make and enforce the rules and field their teams, play the games in spite of some doubt. They have to trust that if something was so skewed, it would present itself and justice would be served. This author is postulating that something is skewed still but everyone that can do something about it is either in denial or accepting it as part of the game.

 

The kid that once held the camera said it when asked if it's still being done - "about half as much" was his answer. HFA.

 

A lot of conspiracy books don't get a lot of marketing. The reasons are obvious.

 

Your claim that they are still allowed by the rest of the teams to continue cheating (to preserve the integrity of the game..or something) is just nonsense. You've given no evidence (and you read the book!) that they are still doing these things and your explanations of an entire league simply going along with it lack any logic.

 

The NFL is a group of owners. The Comissioner does their bidding only. He does nothing they don't want him or allow him to do.

[gomper]

This is without doubt fact. The NFL only allows two or so minutes and practice to be filmed before closing it. It was in this window that JJ observed Kelly practicing shovel passes. JJ thought it was odd because he never saw the Bills run it on any of the film he watched. The Bills noticed that Dallas he trouble with this play in a preseason game against Jacksonville and were hoping to exploit it. Everytime he mentions it to Kelly, Jimbo justs buries his head in his hands. JJ didn't cheat on that one. We were just idiots about it.

[boyst]

What about the Patriots prating injured players? Both on reserve and non-eligible? see Ross Tuckers comments.

He said the Patriots ere the only team that practiced IR PUP and injured players.

[filthymcnasty08]

A lot of conspiracy books don't get a lot of marketing. The reasons are obvious.

 

Your claim that they are still allowed by the rest of the teams to continue cheating (to preserve the integrity of the game..or something) is just nonsense. You've given no evidence (and you read the book!) that they are still doing these things and your explanations of an entire league simply going along with it lack any logic.

 

The NFL is a group of owners. The Comissioner does their bidding only. He does nothing they don't want him or allow him to do.

 

Because all life fits your world view or else its garbage right? There is never a conspiracy in any walk of life worth writing about because, by it being a conspiracy, it's not worth promoting? Only the truth is promoted?

 

Go back to sleep man. Wow.

 

You keep making those straw men....if it makes you feel better. Don't read the book or anything.

 

"A lot of conspiracy books don't get a lot of marketing. The reasons are obvious." - there's sound logic and a pointed argument.

Edited November 29, 2012 by filthymcnasty08

[GRONK SPIKE!]

There are guys that can spout off statistics and claim that the holocaust didn't happen.