filthymcnasty08 Posted November 30, 2012 Posted November 30, 2012 "The league/owners/media all agreed to make this go away. Truthfully, it was more than enough to ruin the integrity of the game in the fans eyes.....and that means a massive loss of profits." "if the Pats were to have stunk after Spygate, it would have made their cheating look worse.....The next year, the Pats went 16-0 beating up on teams with huge scores...., but it was enabled by the NFL because it helped make folks think "Hey, these guys really are good. They really didn't have to cheat." "The owners met behind closed doors and the consensus was to damage control the hell out of this thing. Why? - because it was big enough that the collateral damage from a full blown investigation/media circus would extend into irreperable damage to their franchises and the integrity of the game - the national passtime" You keep saying this, so I assume it's in the book. In fact that's why I keep asking you how you know they are cheating now and why it is tolerated by the rest of the owners. You keep responding "read the book". If it's not in the book, then I assume you are making it up. And please look up the meaning of the term "straw man argument". Jeezus... . YES the owners did meet after the story broke in 2007. Nobody ever refuted that. You are saying that I am asserting or the book is asserting that they meet EVERY YEAR and decide tgether to specifically LET THE PATS CHEAT so the integrity of the game remains intact. Thats not a strawman? Heres the definition and yes this is exactly what you continue to do: A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. Your second quote was convenieltly cut from another users post but that too does not state that year after year the owners get together and say let the pats cheat. That says that after the scandal broke....the next season was crucial to the integrity of the game that the Pats do not appear weak after getting caught as it would lend more creedence to the idea that their dynasy was built on cheating. Again, not even close to what you are saying. They (the owners) did in 2007 decide to go no further with the investigation, destroy the evidence and move along quietly. In short, the owners tolerated cheating in 2007 because if they did not, the dirty details would all be made public and it would destroy the publics view of the game. Fact. Still doesnt support your accusation/point. I keep saying read the book because your taking a position that it up to me to provide you with evidence....why do I need to give you the background when it's all there for you to read? Once you have all the details of how they cheated in the first place, then we could have a much better debate on why they could be doing it today. I'll buy you a copy if you promise to read it. Otherwise this is a pointless waste of time. You want to discredit me for pointing you to what is already in the public domain and you are doing so by misrepresenting what I am saying and attacking the misrepresentation (see the definition of strawman). If you want to keep going, be my guest. But really, this is pointless
Mr. WEO Posted November 30, 2012 Posted November 30, 2012 . YES the owners did meet after the story broke in 2007. Nobody ever refuted that. You are saying that I am asserting or the book is asserting that they meet EVERY YEAR and decide tgether to specifically LET THE PATS CHEAT so the integrity of the game remains intact. Thats not a strawman? Heres the definition and yes this is exactly what you continue to do: A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. Your second quote was convenieltly cut from another users post but that too does not state that year after year the owners get together and say let the pats cheat. That says that after the scandal broke....the next season was crucial to the integrity of the game that the Pats do not appear weak after getting caught as it would lend more creedence to the idea that their dynasy was built on cheating. Again, not even close to what you are saying. They (the owners) did in 2007 decide to go no further with the investigation, destroy the evidence and move along quietly. In short, the owners tolerated cheating in 2007 because if they did not, the dirty details would all be made public and it would destroy the publics view of the game. Fact. Still doesnt support your accusation/point. I keep saying read the book because your taking a position that it up to me to provide you with evidence....why do I need to give you the background when it's all there for you to read? Once you have all the details of how they cheated in the first place, then we could have a much better debate on why they could be doing it today. I'll buy you a copy if you promise to read it. Otherwise this is a pointless waste of time. You want to discredit me for pointing you to what is already in the public domain and you are doing so by misrepresenting what I am saying and attacking the misrepresentation (see the definition of strawman). If you want to keep going, be my guest. But really, this is pointless Everyone already knows everything you have listed from this guy's book--yet none of the calamities (dropping ratings, lost viewers, plummeting team valuations) you said would result from the public being aware have happened. None. I assumed the owners were meeting regularly because you insist the pats are still cheating and that the other owners tolerate as they did in the past. Since you have yet to describe how this currently goes down in the NFL, I made the only inference possible from your theory. Look, everyone knows they cheated. Obviously most people don't care because none of your doomsday scenarios for the public "finding out" came true. This book has and will change none of that. If the book does not say they are still cheating, then say so. If it says they are still cheating, tell us how it works--that's all I have been asking. You refuse to give an answer other than "read the book". Look, I can only enjoy shooting fish in a barrel for so long before it gets boring. Enjoy the paranoia. It's sad though...
filthymcnasty08 Posted November 30, 2012 Posted November 30, 2012 Look, I can only enjoy shooting fish in a barrel for so long before it gets boring. Enjoy the paranoia. It's sad though..." Almost as sad as your small minded state of denial. Fish in a barrel? I'm waiting for you to make a single salient argument other than twisting words and trying to insult me - ya, you're crushing this. And what's this "we" and "us" thing with you, do you need others to chime in for your big finish? "Everyone already knows everything you have listed from this guy's book--yet none of the calamities (dropping ratings, lost viewers, plummeting team valuations) you said would result from the public being aware have happened. None." Exactly....Why was that? Because people don't care as you say? Or because the evidence was destroyed, the investigation was minimal, the case went open and shut, the press and the networks went to sleep, the punishment was kept minimal and the titles stayed in new england? You seriously don't understand the difference at this point??? Cant help you with that part anymore. "I assumed the owners were meeting regularly because you insist the pats are still cheating and that the other owners tolerate as they did in the past. Since you have yet to describe how this currently goes down in the NFL, I made the only inference possible from your theory. " Nice backpedal! And again with the same strawman! Where and when did I claim that I had PROOF of how they are doing this? The book presents the patriots system in full detail - the one they were caught with. The same system with more sophisticated camera work (in their home stadium) is what the Author postulates could be in use today. Theres also layers of statistical support around the idea tha tit may have never stopped in their park. There is also a quote from the person that took part in the system by filming opposing coordinators hand signals using a hidden camera that the system is still in effect "about half as much as it used to be". None of this is my conjecture -this is all written. Oh, yes, except the exact step by step method complete with pictures and small worded explanations that they are using to spy on the opposition today....which you apparently have to have because you apparently have not a drop of critical thinking available to you. Look, everyone knows they cheated. Obviously most people don't care because none of your doomsday scenarios for the public "finding out" came true. This book has and will change none of that Doomsday scenarios? You don't think those owners **** bricks and needed to make this thing die fast? They have all lived long enough to see what could happen when the public loses faith/interest in your product because they know its corrupt.....ever hear of boxing?? Once again, I just found the book to be unbelievably eye-opening. If you like your world as-is, no worries. Leave it be, you'll always be right in your world. I'm sensing you really have a deep need to reject it and you really went to great lengths to attempt to do so. The part you are missing, and keep insisting to strawman, is that this is not my research, the author did it. Maybe you should e-mail him and ask him for all the proof you require. He may, and don't get mad, ask you if you have read the book because my guess is that he's going to be able to tell you haven't And if none of this were true, past present and all, this Author would be subject to one HELL of a libel suit, so far it looks like nobody has tried. (Warning - critical thinking required)
thewildrabbit Posted December 1, 2012 Posted December 1, 2012 Whats not to hate... tho I'm not gonna quell on the super bowls won. I look at their record under Belichick 13 years, and 12 with a winning record. 16-0 2007 11-5 2008 with Matt Cassell at QB 10-6 2009 14-2 2010 13-3 2011 They will probably win the SB this year now that they found their running game again. I look at the Buffalo Bills and can only wonder if Robert Kraft is paying Ralph Wilson or perhaps the Bills coaches / GM to purposely throw games. As long as the team makes a profit every year this owner has proven he doesn't care if he wins or not! One owner wants to win above all, the other just wants the profits
benderbender Posted December 1, 2012 Posted December 1, 2012 people all this was in the past. Yes its mess up what the pats did. but that was couple years ago.. let's just move on and just get over it.. I don't know why so many people still talk about it.. It's the reason for my avatar. Teddy Bruschi wants you to think that.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Let's also not forget the person (Belichick in SB XXV) who pioneered the use of fake injuries to slow down no-huddle attacks. Chuck Knox, with the Seahawks in the 1998 divisional playoff round against Cincy. Good job "not forgetting", bonehead. Bonehead? Was the name calling necessary? I've never heard that Knox faked injuries to slow down Cinci so excuse my ignorance. As far as "not forgetting" goes, Chuck Knox retired from coaching after the 1994 season so I'm not understanding how he could have used the tactic in 1998. Good job "not forgetting."
reddogblitz Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Will never forget being at a game against the Pats* I think the year before the scandal broke, and thinking that it was uncanny that on offense they seemed to know exactly what to do time after time against whatever was thrown at them. I specifically remember two blitzes where Brady just heaved the ball to the middle of the field for long gains - and it appeared he wasn't even looking where he was throwing as he was avoiding the pressure. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind today they knew exactly what the defense was going to do before the snap. Hines Ward and the Eagles say the same thing: http://eaglesphiladelphia.blogspot.com/2007/09/eagles-take-on-spygate.html
EmotionallyUnstable Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 just finished this book. It is a must read. O'leary does a wonderful job tying everything together.
FFiB64 Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 I may have to chime in as a Dolphins fan. Some might remember me from way back on the Stadiumwall (6pack still around?). I am not a conspiracy theorist. But this book is a must read. The author has done a tremendous job not just throwing out some conspiracy stuff but has accumulated stunning statistics and facts which has not been made public. And in the book it was also noted that the Patriots were not caught cheating once but twice. To those who question the book (without reading it) because the NFL has not done a bigger deal out of it: There are not many people involved. I doubt that all the owners actually know to what extend the Patriots cheated as the evidence was destroyed IN Foxboro. It never made to NFL HQs and not even Goodell was interested in the tapes and punished the Pats a minimal fine without having seen the tapes but having ordered the destruction of the tapes. Just the word to the owners that any big scandal would financially destroy the league and maybe having the end result that the anti-trust legislation could be removed was enough for the owners to keep it under wraps. This book does not just examine the cheating by the Patriots some 10 years ago or in 2007 but clearly showed that the cheating continues. Maybe not as much anymore as teams have put safe guards in place but the Patriots do still find ways. I think besides the absolute stunning statistics and interviews analyzing some of the stats (i.e. beating the spread) there is much more in this book. - The Brady salary story makes you wonder. - Manning's admission that they go outside the locker room in Foxboro when discussing an offensive game plan - the initial admission by Flutie that he heard the play calls in the QBs helmet beyond the 15 second cut off (up to the moment of the snap) - the fact that players and coaches don't matter with the Patriots, pointing out that most coaches and players outside the Patriots organization were unsuccessful yet the Patriots never missed a beat. They didn't even needed DCs or OCs. ...and much much more. No, the author does not accuse every player whoever played with the Patriots. Most players don't even know. This cheating is really rather tight and only in small circles going on. I wish that this book is being read by every NFL fan or that the media would actually engage in this discussion. I saw one interview on TV where an investigative journalist was asked why nobody in the media would read the book and discuss it. The answer spoke volumes. That guy said that most have read it but nobody wants to touch it because nobody can really refute it. So they want to silence it to death. The less it is being talked about, the less fans will know about, the less damage it could do. He called a 'silent death'. This is an issue which will never be solved by the NFL. It would be counter productive for them to actually go public on that. It will not be solved by the media because, while paying top dollars for broadcast rights, they are making billions of dollars of revenue as well. This is an issue if the fans would like to be cheated. Because essentially nobody but the fans are getting cheated. Most owners don't care because they still pull in huge revenues. Same with the NFL. They could lose everything though if this issue would make headlines. As they say: to big to fail. The only ones who are cheated are the fans. And it is not just an AFC East thing or some jealousy on my end. Heck the Bills had a nice Superbowl participation run in the 90s. And while I was jealous the Bills simply earned it. That Bills team was a classy team and a good team. It was rivalry I loved. But when a team is build for a dynasty on cheating. Oh no. The NFL is not even set up for any kind of dynasty. The entire league set up is supposed to be all about parity. Bottom line: read the book and form your opinion. You will walk away from that book with a completely different state of mind. I read it because I was curious. Before I started reading I had a negative mind set. But as I was reading and with every page I changed. Oh yeah. Good luck on Sunday. :beer: to a fair game, no injuries and an entertaining game.
boyst Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 I may have to chime in as a Dolphins fan. Some might remember me from way back on the Stadiumwall (6pack still around?). I am not a conspiracy theorist. But this book is a must read. The author has done a tremendous job not just throwing out some conspiracy stuff but has accumulated stunning statistics and facts which has not been made public. And in the book it was also noted that the Patriots were not caught cheating once but twice. To those who question the book (without reading it) because the NFL has not done a bigger deal out of it: There are not many people involved. I doubt that all the owners actually know to what extend the Patriots cheated as the evidence was destroyed IN Foxboro. It never made to NFL HQs and not even Goodell was interested in the tapes and punished the Pats a minimal fine without having seen the tapes but having ordered the destruction of the tapes. Just the word to the owners that any big scandal would financially destroy the league and maybe having the end result that the anti-trust legislation could be removed was enough for the owners to keep it under wraps. This book does not just examine the cheating by the Patriots some 10 years ago or in 2007 but clearly showed that the cheating continues. Maybe not as much anymore as teams have put safe guards in place but the Patriots do still find ways. I think besides the absolute stunning statistics and interviews analyzing some of the stats (i.e. beating the spread) there is much more in this book. - The Brady salary story makes you wonder. - Manning's admission that they go outside the locker room in Foxboro when discussing an offensive game plan - the initial admission by Flutie that he heard the play calls in the QBs helmet beyond the 15 second cut off (up to the moment of the snap) - the fact that players and coaches don't matter with the Patriots, pointing out that most coaches and players outside the Patriots organization were unsuccessful yet the Patriots never missed a beat. They didn't even needed DCs or OCs. ...and much much more. No, the author does not accuse every player whoever played with the Patriots. Most players don't even know. This cheating is really rather tight and only in small circles going on. I wish that this book is being read by every NFL fan or that the media would actually engage in this discussion. I saw one interview on TV where an investigative journalist was asked why nobody in the media would read the book and discuss it. The answer spoke volumes. That guy said that most have read it but nobody wants to touch it because nobody can really refute it. So they want to silence it to death. The less it is being talked about, the less fans will know about, the less damage it could do. He called a 'silent death'. This is an issue which will never be solved by the NFL. It would be counter productive for them to actually go public on that. It will not be solved by the media because, while paying top dollars for broadcast rights, they are making billions of dollars of revenue as well. This is an issue if the fans would like to be cheated. Because essentially nobody but the fans are getting cheated. Most owners don't care because they still pull in huge revenues. Same with the NFL. They could lose everything though if this issue would make headlines. As they say: to big to fail. The only ones who are cheated are the fans. And it is not just an AFC East thing or some jealousy on my end. Heck the Bills had a nice Superbowl participation run in the 90s. And while I was jealous the Bills simply earned it. That Bills team was a classy team and a good team. It was rivalry I loved. But when a team is build for a dynasty on cheating. Oh no. The NFL is not even set up for any kind of dynasty. The entire league set up is supposed to be all about parity. Bottom line: read the book and form your opinion. You will walk away from that book with a completely different state of mind. I read it because I was curious. Before I started reading I had a negative mind set. But as I was reading and with every page I changed. Oh yeah. Good luck on Sunday. :beer: to a fair game, no injuries and an entertaining game. thanks for stopping by and sharing your outsiders opinion. I am not much of a reader but might check this book out when I find an ebook of it.
FFiB64 Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 thanks for stopping by and sharing your outsiders opinion. I am not much of a reader but might check this book out when I find an ebook of it. There is a Kindle version on amazon.com. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008PYP83C/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title
bbb Posted December 22, 2012 Author Posted December 22, 2012 There is a Kindle version on amazon.com. http://www.amazon.co...nw_myk_ro_title If you're going to do that, it would be great if you went through the site where the podcast (original post) came from - if you click on the amazon banner, you'll go right to amazon and they get a small % that helps them stay afloat: http://www.trendingbuffalo.com
FFiB64 Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 If you're going to do that, it would be great if you went through the site where the podcast (original post) came from - if you click on the amazon banner, you'll go right to amazon and they get a small % that helps them stay afloat: http://www.trendingbuffalo.com If I would have known that I certainly would have done that. I personally did not go through that site as I bought the book a couple months ago. But I do agree with you. Therefore: Bills fans! Support a local business and buy the book through here: http://www.trendingbuffalo.com/spygate-author-bryan-oleary/
bbb Posted December 22, 2012 Author Posted December 22, 2012 If I would have known that I certainly would have done that. I personally did not go through that site as I bought the book a couple months ago. But I do agree with you. Therefore: Bills fans! Support a local business and buy the book through here: http://www.trendingb...r-bryan-oleary/ Nice!
boyst Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 There is a Kindle version on amazon.com. http://www.amazon.co...nw_myk_ro_title Ohhh. That means I would have to pay for it...nah.
blzrul Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 I wonder why this isn't getting more press? If you read this, and read Marv Levy's "fiction" (Between the Lies), it's pretty much the same story. So this says that it's an open secret...Marv would never make a public stink "for love of the game" and the others....? There have to be untainted teams and coaches out there. I guess they lack proof. Goodell - what a loser.
Roger Goodell Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 I wonder why this isn't getting more press? If you read this, and read Marv Levy's "fiction" (Between the Lies), it's pretty much the same story. So this says that it's an open secret...Marv would never make a public stink "for love of the game" and the others....? There have to be untainted teams and coaches out there. I guess they lack proof. Goodell - what a loser. We're busy basking in the glow of a wonderful Super Bowl and the inspirational Ray Lewis story.
holmz56 Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 I read a great book awhile back called, "Interference"-" How Professional Football is Controlled By Organized Crime" Once you start reading this book, you won't stop !It has all kinds of names mentioned ,including Mr.Wilson.
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