Lowering the bar in Florida

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http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/10/12/florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-goals/

[dayman]

hmmm....not sure if I consider this racist. Maybe dividing it by race is necessarily racist...but once you do divide it that way and get a lower baseline...having a lower goal is then just realistic.

[DC Tom]

hmmm....not sure if I consider this racist. Maybe dividing it by race is necessarily racist...but once you do divide it that way and get a lower baseline...having a lower goal is then just realistic.

 

I'd like to see how the ACTUAL plan was phrased. It could be they said "We want to improve proficiency by 50% across the board", and someone else took that and translated that to absolute number by race.

[Nanker]

"On Tuesday, the board passed a revised strategic plan that says that by 2018, it wants 90 percent of Asian students, 88 percent of white students, 81 percent of Hispanics and 74 percent of black students to be reading at or above grade level. For math, the goals are 92 percent of Asian kids to be proficient, whites at 86 percent, Hispanics at 80 percent and blacks at 74 percent. It also measures by other groupings, such as poverty and disabilities, reported the Palm Beach Post."

Simple question: Why aren't the goals set at 100% of all students achieving reading, AND WRITING, and math proficiency?

[Chef Jim]

I'm not surprised at this. When I moved to Florida over 30 years ago I had to take my driver's test. The woman took one look at me with my dark tan and big mustache and asked if I wanted my test in Spanish or English. I said "let's do Spanish, I like a challenge "

[/dev/null]

Simple question: Why aren't the goals set at 100% of all students achieving reading, AND WRITING, and math proficiency?

 

You don't actually expect them to set a challenging goal? Set the bar low so there are no dissapointing numbers

 

Plus it leaves plenty of room to say the results would be better if only they were getting more money

[DC Tom]

"On Tuesday, the board passed a revised strategic plan that says that by 2018, it wants 90 percent of Asian students, 88 percent of white students, 81 percent of Hispanics and 74 percent of black students to be reading at or above grade level. For math, the goals are 92 percent of Asian kids to be proficient, whites at 86 percent, Hispanics at 80 percent and blacks at 74 percent. It also measures by other groupings, such as poverty and disabilities, reported the Palm Beach Post."

Simple question: Why aren't the goals set at 100% of all students achieving reading, AND WRITING, and math proficiency?

 

Because some percentage of the kids are irretriveably stupid.

[3rdnlng]

Because some percentage of the kids are irretriveably stupid.

 

No reason the goal shouldn't be 100%.

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

 

No reason the goal shouldn't be 100%.

There absolutely are reasons. The purpose of goal setting isn't to capture the ideal. Goals, in order to make sense, need to be both achievable and realistic.

[dayman]

There absolutely are reasons. The purpose of goal setting isn't to capture the ideal. Goals, in order to make sense, need to be both achievable and realistic.

 

^this

[B-Man]

“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” -- Robert Browning

 

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[Taro T]

“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” -- Robert Browning

 

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True,

 

But why stop at attaining 100% of the student body meeting the targets? If you're going to be unrealistic, why not shoot for something like 200% of the student body meeting the targets? (Where a 200% %age being defined roughly as having all 100% of the particular grade meeting that level plus all the kids 1 grade level lower meeting the targets.)

[B-Man]

True,

 

But why stop at attaining 100% of the student body meeting the targets? If you're going to be unrealistic, why not shoot for something like 200% of the student body meeting the targets? (Where a 200% %age being defined roughly as having all 100% of the particular grade meeting that level plus all the kids 1 grade level lower meeting the targets.)

 

Mine is an example of a famous quote, that celebrates that when people reach for more, they get more.

 

Your silly 200% attempt at obfuscation, isn't worth a second thought.....................sorry.

 

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[dayman]

Mine is an example of a famous quote, that celebrates that when people reach for more, they get more.

 

Your silly 200% attempt at obfuscation, isn't worth a second thought.....................sorry.

 

.

 

Ya but I think the idea is that there's a target, timeframe, and plan...who is to say that people who know about education don't think this is "reaching for more" over the next few years?

[3rdnlng]

Ya but I think the idea is that there's a target, timeframe, and plan...who is to say that people who know about education don't think this is "reaching for more" over the next few years?

 

In my prior career I was in manufacturing management, mainly in high speed production. I was involved with many turnaround situations where a cultural change was necessary. I would say that a failing school system is failing from lack of leadership, every time. Not once did we approach the situation with a goal of something less than the best. A favorite saying of mine that supervisors that worked for me heard often was "the more you expect, the more you get". I'm not saying that as a leader you can just wave a magic wand, demand perfection and it will happen. I'm saying that it is a leader's job to put people in a position to excel.

 

For a school system to have differing goals for different races is an affront to not only the blacks whose goal is set at a much lower rate, but for every student in the school. Now we all know that the little asian girl who has aced every test is going to be valedictorian, but as a teacher or administrator could you stand there in front of what could be the next Condaleeza Rice and tell her you expect less from her? Why do you think the little asian girl does so well in the first place?

[Taro T]

Mine is an example of a famous quote, that celebrates that when people reach for more, they get more.

 

Your silly 200% attempt at obfuscation, isn't worth a second thought.....................sorry.

 

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And you AREN'T going to get to 100% whether you set out to reach it or not. If the goal is physically unattainable, then why strive for it?

 

It would have been silly for Kennedy to challenge Americans to reach Saturn by the end of the decade. The moon, however, was a pretty friggin' cool goal to set and reach.

 

EDIT: And no, I don't think that setting differing targets for differing ethic groups is particularily wise either.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Taro T

[3rdnlng]

And you AREN'T going to get to 100% whether you set out to reach it or not. If the goal is physically unattainable, then why strive for it?

 

It would have been silly for Kennedy to challenge Americans to reach Saturn by the end of the decade. The moon, however, was a pretty friggin' cool goal to set and reach.

 

EDIT: And no, I don't think that setting differing targets for differing ethic groups is particularily wise either.

 

I think you analogy is a poor one. I don't think it is impossible for 100% of the students, regardless of race to get to reading or math levels for their grade. Is it unlikely? Of course. Let's say you ask every black kid to get to grade level along with the asians, is there something wrong with that? Or should you tell them that the school system is happy to leave 25% of them behind? The higher level you shoot for, the higher level you will attain. Don't get me wrong. This is not done in a vacuum. The school has to make it not only possible for them to succeed, but make them want to.

[dayman]

In my prior career I was in manufacturing management, mainly in high speed production. I was involved with many turnaround situations where a cultural change was necessary. I would say that a failing school system is failing from lack of leadership, every time. Not once did we approach the situation with a goal of something less than the best. A favorite saying of mine that supervisors that worked for me heard often was "the more you expect, the more you get". I'm not saying that as a leader you can just wave a magic wand, demand perfection and it will happen. I'm saying that it is a leader's job to put people in a position to excel.

 

For a school system to have differing goals for different races is an affront to not only the blacks whose goal is set at a much lower rate, but for every student in the school. Now we all know that the little asian girl who has aced every test is going to be valedictorian, but as a teacher or administrator could you stand there in front of what could be the next Condaleeza Rice and tell her you expect less from her? Why do you think the little asian girl does so well in the first place?

 

Hey, I agree that it would be wise to maybe set it by socioeconomic status or something instead of race. But there is a "caste system" so to speak in public schools...to understand that and make goals based on that isn't bad IMO. You don't want to set the "realistic" goal for all students somewhere near the level an affluent community is already at b/c you want to be doing the best to improve those as well. And 100%...just not going to happen. You should set goals to reach IMO...not just demand "more" at all times b/c then...there is nothing but failure all the time and goals become meaningless. Not to say I don't agree that you set them high, but you set them somewhere reachable.

 

Bills want to win every game. In that sense our goal is 16-0. But in reality when stepping back we want to win 10 or 11 games and make the playoffs b/c we know where we've been and who we are. So that's really the goal. As it applies here...yes you want every kid, but when setting goals...you need to realistic and accept that it isn't going to happen and decide what is tangible and how to get there.

[birdog1960]

"On Tuesday, the board passed a revised strategic plan that says that by 2018, it wants 90 percent of Asian students, 88 percent of white students, 81 percent of Hispanics and 74 percent of black students to be reading at or above grade level. For math, the goals are 92 percent of Asian kids to be proficient, whites at 86 percent, Hispanics at 80 percent and blacks at 74 percent. It also measures by other groupings, such as poverty and disabilities, reported the Palm Beach Post."

Simple question: Why aren't the goals set at 100% of all students achieving reading, AND WRITING, and math proficiency?

this is a good question. i agree with your premise. set low goals, get low results.

 

Because some percentage of the kids are irretriveably stupid.

eugenics anyone?

[dayman]

Consider this, before the simulus was passed and Tennessee recieved their race to the top grant 91% of their students were reported to be proficient in math. A year later it was 34% and the minority achievement gap had doubled. It was purely a result of stricter standards...they stopped lying to themselves and dumbing down their standards...now they know the truth and that is a very liberating and motivating thing. Now they can look at the real data...acknowledge real differences in different parts of the state and w/ different groups of kids...and start real change.

 

I won't try and tie this in directly w/ the Florida situation but it speaks IMO to the power of being honest...and I think setting realistic goals is the only way to approach the situation after you have been honest with yourself.