the defense is not that talented

[J-E-T-S-L-O-L]

Wanny takes a lot of heat, and deservedly so. He is not doing enough with a defense apparently stacked with talent.

 

This defense is not that talented. It has alot of potential. But right now it consists of alot of young players still learning the pro game.

 

There is a reason why the youngest defenses in the league are usually the leagues worst. While old defenses like the Steelers are still going strong despite being injured, and less physically gifted.

 

Darreus is only in his second year. Most players don`t come on as strong as JJ Watt. And even he probably has a lot of holes in his game that are masked by people around him and the overall success of that defense. It takes time to develop. Also Darreus had to change scheme and coordinator. He is almost a like a rookie again.

 

Mark Anderson is best served as a role player, not a starter.

 

The Williams bros are potential pro bowl players. But both had to change schemes since last year. And both are coming off injury. So it would be fair to expect a drop in productivity, and thus they`re not pro bowl players this year.

 

Then you have Byrd and Barnett. Solid players. And then what?

 

Not much else. The secondary has potential to be great, but not now. Maybe in 2 years. Right now they`re probably amoung the worst in the league, simply because the 2 starting corners has not 16 games of starting experience between them. I dare you to find me a less experience starting CB duo.

 

Then you have the rest of the LBs. Not exactly perennial pro bowlers. A second year player with barely 1 season worth of starts. A 219 lb SS playing LB. And 6 round pick from 2 years ago that has bounced around just about every position in the front 7 and has yet to start more then a handfull of games.

 

Is this the talented defense I keep hearing about? Sounds like a typical bottom 5 defense if you ask me. Regardless of coordinator. It`s just too young and inexperienced. Most of them have barely been here 1 year. It takes time to turn that around. The potential is deffinatly there. But right now it`s a defense in the process of rebuilding.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Wanny takes a lot of heat, and deservedly so. He is not doing enough with a defense apparently stacked with talent.

 

This defense is not that talented. It has alot of potential. But right now it consists of alot of young players still learning the pro game.

 

Hmmmm...

Kyle Williams 7 year

Mario Williams 7 year

Mark Anderson 7 year

Chris Kelsay 10 year

Marcell Dareus 2nd year, but very high draft picks are expected to contribute immediately

Nick Barnett 10 year

Kirk Morrison 8 year (backup)

Bryan Scott 10 year (nickel)

Terrence McGee 10 year

Leodis McKelvin 5 years (backup/nickel)

Jairus Byrd 4 year

George Wilson 7 year

 

If those are young players who still need to learn the pro game, pray tell, how long is it supposed to take?

Keep in mind I've listed a couple vets who are backups - but a young player is supposed to be superior to the vet he's replacing in football smarts and talent:

Stephon Gilmore ®

Aaron Williams (2 year)

Kelvin Sheppard (2 year)

Arthur Moats (3 year)

 

We're really only starting 1 rookie and 3 2nd year guys in addition to Dareus.

 

I think it's thoughtful that you're trying to make excuses for them, but there are a lot of vets on this team, Dareus is surrounded by Kyle Williams and 2 high-priced vet FA,

and there is age/experience on our 2ndary in Byrd and Wilson.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. Plenty of teams doing more D with less talent and experience.

[BuffOrange]

I'd have liked to have seen you argue this six weeks ago. You're basically just trying to rationalize why they've played bad as opposed to explaining why the talent level is overrated.

 

Why don't our QB/WR's measure up to other teams? Most would say the draft pedigree isn't there. There's very few 1st or even 2nd or 3rd round picks in those spots.

 

Most would agree the DL is the most important group on defense & we have two top three overall picks there plus Kyle Williams. Dareus is only in his 2nd year, so what, DT is not exactly the steepest learning curve in the world. Assistant coaches and schemes change all the time with lots of different teams.

The Dallas rookie CB has been very good already. Gilmore not really.

Sure the LB's are a weakness.

 

Bottom line even if we all overestimated the talent level it's still better than bottom 10 in the league much less "give up 600 yards & 50pts every other week" bad.

[J-E-T-S-L-O-L]

When you draft a player 10th overrall, you assume he`s gonna eventually become a pro bowl type player. But that is not a guarantee. It`s not even a guarantee that he`s a starter in this league. McKelvin 11th overrall in his 5th year. Are we ruling out the possibiltiy that GIlmore might not live up to his draft status? And even if he does. Usually CBs are not even close to playing that way their first couple of years.

 

Jimmy Smith is 1st round CB from last year. He only plays in nickle situations. But he arguably should be further along then both GIlmore and Williams. Since he`s a higher draft pick then WIlliams. An undrafted player that was on the PS for years starts is in front of him. He hasn`t even played well, but he`s still starting.

Jimmy is probably eventually gonna unseat him, but right now the coaches are more comfortable with experience over potential.

 

5 starters had started 16 games or less to start the season. That`s almost half the starting defense that are essentially rookies. 2 are completly new to the team.

New England has drafted highly touted defensive players for years. And Bellicheck is supposedly a defensive guru. Why has it taken so long to field a good unit?

They drafted a CB within the first two rounds 4 years straight. Still their passing defense is ranked 30th or worse for the 3rd straight year.

 

The backups have experience. But what does it matter when they`re not playing. Why even mention them? You could have 11 pro bowl players, doesn`t matter if they`re on the bench.

 

2 out of 3 LBs are inexperienced, and 2 out 4 DBs. Couple that with an underperforming D-Line and you have you asnwers. Even if the d-line starts playing up to it`s potential, it`s not a top 10 defense this year.

[BiggieScooby]

Chandler Jones is looking good as a rookie and so has Donta Hightower in New England.

[KD in CA]

This defense is not that talented. It has alot of potential. But right now it consists of alot of young players still learning the pro game.

Yup. Essentially two rookie CBs and a crop of bad LBs do not make for a great defense.

 

 

 

I'd have liked to have seen you argue this six weeks ago.

Not to say the D isn't underperforming, but I think a lot of people tried to point this out six weeks ago and were shouted down by the 'we have the best DL in the league and will win 10+ games and if you don't agree you're not a real fan' crowd.

[Just in Atlanta]

Didn't you hear the coaches? It's neither the DC or the talent.

 

The problem is not having "mental toughness." And not "fitting it up." We get mental toughness and fit it up, we'll be right as rain.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Just in Atlanta

[BuffOrange]

Not to say the D isn't underperforming, but I think a lot of people tried to point this out six weeks ago and were shouted down by the 'we have the best DL in the league and will win 10+ games and if you don't agree you're not a real fan' crowd.

 

No doubt that happens a lot here (last year at this time you weren't a real fan if you didn't believe 4 takeaways per game was sustainable).

 

But for most reasonable people I think a defense in the 8-12 range was more realistic than the top 5. I expected the former but would not have been shocked to see them fall short of that and just be average. There's just no excuse for being as historically horrific as they've been; not even my Dad saw that coming who is as negative as they come.

Edited October 11, 2012 by BuffOrange

[thewildrabbit]

Hmmmm...

Kyle Williams 7 year

Mario Williams 7 year

Mark Anderson 7 year

Chris Kelsay 10 year

Marcell Dareus 2nd year, but very high draft picks are expected to contribute immediately

Nick Barnett 10 year

Kirk Morrison 8 year (backup)

Bryan Scott 10 year (nickel)

Terrence McGee 10 year

Leodis McKelvin 5 years (backup/nickel)

Jairus Byrd 4 year

George Wilson 7 year

 

If those are young players who still need to learn the pro game, pray tell, how long is it supposed to take?

Keep in mind I've listed a couple vets who are backups - but a young player is supposed to be superior to the vet he's replacing in football smarts and talent:

Stephon Gilmore ®

Aaron Williams (2 year)

Kelvin Sheppard (2 year)

Arthur Moats (3 year)

 

We're really only starting 1 rookie and 3 2nd year guys in addition to Dareus.

 

I think it's thoughtful that you're trying to make excuses for them, but there are a lot of vets on this team, Dareus is surrounded by Kyle Williams and 2 high-priced vet FA,

and there is age/experience on our 2ndary in Byrd and Wilson.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. Plenty of teams doing more D with less talent and experience.

Dontcha love the way Bills fans find a way to make excuses for all the bad play and losing In all aspects too. Usually most threads are about the offense.

 

90% of the NFL is coaching IMO and until the Bills break down and hire another Chuck Knox type they won't win.

 

Knox had won 5 straight NFC West titles with 5 different QB's and had a record of 54-15-1 but had only won 3-5 in the playoffs.Like Knox with the Rams, Andy Reid is in a similar boat with the owner of the Eagles. Bill Cowher is a winner 149-90-1, 12-9 in the playoffs. Marty Schottenheimer is 203-127-1 606% playoffs 6-13 tho

 

The Bills need a top head coach, and even tho Marty S hasn't won in the playoffs, it would be great for Bills and their fans just to have a team with a winning record and a chance to make the playoffs

[Dorkington]

Old and talentless. With no heart. And no coach.

[T master]

Nothing against Stephon Gilmore but , but leading up to the draft with the talent at LB that we had , losing Poz to carolina & our lack of LB talent i was hoping that our pick would get a Luke Keuckly , or Donta Hightower b/c we need better LB play .

 

But then it came time for our pick , & when the pick was made all the EXPERTS said that Gilmore was one of the best CB in the draft so i didn't feel that bad with the pick .

 

But i would have rather kept Flo with the DB's we had & beefed up our LB corp . Because no matter what all of the rest of the Poz haters thought on here he was the leader in tackles on the D for 2 years for a reason & i think he would be better suited in what Wanny is doing than Shep ..

[J-E-T-S-L-O-L]

CB and LB or D-Line is not the same. When is the last time a CB won defensive rookie of the year?

 

Here is every CB drafted in 1st or early 2nd round going back to 2008. Only 1/3 of them started their rookie year.

 

2011 draft

#5 Patrick Peterson - Started allowed the 3rd most passing yards in the league, and had 10 penalties. 85 in QB rating.

#19 Prince Amukamara - Injured. Played limited role when he returned. 122 QB rating when targeted.

#27 Jimmy Smith - Injured. Played limited role when he returned. Gave up 3 TDs in just 250 snaps. The rest of the Ravens CBs allowed 5 TDs combined. 74 QBR.

#33 Ras I Dowling - Barely played.

#34 Aaron Williams - Played less then half a season. Gave up 5 TDs, and a QB rating of 120 when targeted.

 

2010 draft

#7 Joe Haden - Started. Played excellent. 50 QB rating. Not much yards.

#20 Kareem Jackson - Started. Allowed 4th most passing yards in the league. QB rating of 111 when targeted.

#27 Devin McCourty - Started. Played excellent. 57 QB rating. But was horrible in year 2, when he allowed 2nd most yards in the league, a QB rating of 106.

#29 Kyle Wilson - Played limited role. But wasn`t bad. 77 in QB Rating.

#31 Patrick Robinson - Played limited role. 87 in QB rating.

#34 Chris Cook - Played limited role. 124 QB rating when targeted.

 

2009 Draft

#14 Malcolm Jenkins - Played limited. 104 in QB rating when targeted. Switched to safety and the team darfted a new 1st round CB following year.

#25 Vontae Davis - Started. Allowed 2nd most yards in the league.2nd most TDs in the league and a QB rating of 112.

#37 Alfonso Smith - Barely played. Traded after 1 year.

#41 Darius Butler - Barely played. Released after 2 years.

 

2008 Draft

#11 Leodis McKelvin - Played about half a season in snaps. Allowed 4 TDs. The rest of the Bills CBs combined for 4 TDs. QB rating of 95.

#16 Rogers-Cromartie - Started. Didn`t allow that much yards. But gave up 3rd most TDs in the league and a 90 in QB rating. Regarded as a good rookie season.

#20 Aquib Talib - Played limited role. But weren`t bad. 54 QB rating.

#25 Mike Jenkins - Played limited role. Allowed more TDs then 3 other CBs on the team with more snaps. 92 QB Rating.

#27 Antoine Cason - Played limited role. Allowed 75 completion percentage and 90 in QB rating.

#35 Brandon Flowers - Started. Played pretty good. Not that much yards, and 72 in QB rating.

 

To sum up. That`s 21 CBs taken in the 1st and early 2nd round the past 4 years. Only 7 of them started their rookie year. 3 of those were in the top 5 in yards allowed that year. 1 of them where 2nd in TDs allowed, as was 1 of the remaining 4. These guys had a QBR between 85 and 112 against them.

 

Only 2 players had great rookie seasons. Haden and McCourty. But McCourty followed that up with a horrible 2nd year. Where he was in the top 5 worst in several categories. Flowers was pretty good too though. Cromartie was above average, but gave up alot of TDs.

 

So far Gilmore has allowed the 6th most yards in the league. And a QB rating of 129 against him. Aaron Williams has allowed about half the yardage, but is leading the league in TDs allowed. And has a QB rating of 124 against him.

 

Dre KirkPatrick has yet to take a snap. Claiborne and Jenkins are playing pretty good. But they have great defenses. The other CBs on those teams are playing very good also. Still Claiborne has a completion percentage of 78, and a QBR 128 against him. And Jenkins has yet to face an offense that is good, or with an O-Line that isn`t destroyed by their D-Line.

 

So far it looks like the young Bills CBs are right on par with the norm.

[DrDawkinstein]

There is plenty of talent on the team, the problem so far as I can tell has been a lack of intensity, and out-thinking ourselves.

 

The lack of intensity is on the players. The out-thinking ourselves is on the coach. When the Pats ran all over us, it wasn't against our 4-3 defense. It was against our Nickel D with a Safety playing in one of the two LB positions. Same thing on such plays as the 3rd and 5 against the 49ers where we went into Nickel and they just ran it right up the middle for 10 yards.

 

I think the biggest mistake that hurt this defense was cutting Shawne Merriman. Even if he wasn't getting on the field, he brought leadership that kept guys fired up. After watching them play since college, Im surprised we havent seen more of that from Sheppard and Dareus. They were both leaders in intensity on their college squads. It would be nice to see them step up and smack some fire into our guys.

 

Nothing against Stephon Gilmore but , but leading up to the draft with the talent at LB that we had , losing Poz to carolina & our lack of LB talent i was hoping that our pick would get a Luke Keuckly , or Donta Hightower b/c we need better LB play .

 

But then it came time for our pick , & when the pick was made all the EXPERTS said that Gilmore was one of the best CB in the draft so i didn't feel that bad with the pick .

 

But i would have rather kept Flo with the DB's we had & beefed up our LB corp . Because no matter what all of the rest of the Poz haters thought on here he was the leader in tackles on the D for 2 years for a reason & i think he would be better suited in what Wanny is doing than Shep ..

 

We lost Poz to Jacksonville and that was 2 seasons ago. And Shep is playing just fine when we are in our base/real Defense. He hasn't been on the field when the D is getting gashed on the ground. That usually happens in Nickel. Wanny might want to think about making Shep the other Nickel LB if he is going to keep Scott in there. At least Shep gives us a chance at stuffing the run.

[sjjr]

The D needs help with D-line depth, nickel LB and SS. It also needs to look at WLB for the future as Barnett's contract comes up.

 

D-line depth is the biggest thing. Merriman not being there to add to the pass rush is big but its also the play of the second team DTs. The Pats went no huddle whenever K.Williams and Dareus went out and pounded the ball against that nicklel D. They need to add 2 or 3 more solid depth players here.

 

Nickel LB has not been good with Scott. He's getting beat in the pass game and blocked in the run game. Nice guy, but they need to upgrade.

 

Wilson clearly isn't playing as well at S. They need to get better there.

 

The rest of the D looks solid on paper. Gilmore is going to be a very good player soon. Need to resign Byrd. Sheppard is a good player in the base D. Even the best Defenses have a few holes and this D certainly has the talent to be a top10 or 15 unit. At the very least they shouldn't allow 52 and 45 points in consecutive weeks.

[Gordio]

Nothing against Stephon Gilmore but , but leading up to the draft with the talent at LB that we had , losing Poz to carolina & our lack of LB talent i was hoping that our pick would get a Luke Keuckly , or Donta Hightower b/c we need better LB play .

 

But then it came time for our pick , & when the pick was made all the EXPERTS said that Gilmore was one of the best CB in the draft so i didn't feel that bad with the pick .

 

But i would have rather kept Flo with the DB's we had & beefed up our LB corp . Because no matter what all of the rest of the Poz haters thought on here he was the leader in tackles on the D for 2 years for a reason & i think he would be better suited in what Wanny is doing than Shep ..

 

Good points but I guess my question is if it is so easy to run against the nickel when we are on offense & are in 3rd & long & the other teams nickel defense is on the field why don't we run it instead of letting old noodle arm chuck another interception or underthrow an open reciever by 10 yards?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Good points but I guess my question is if it is so easy to run against the nickel when we are on offense & are in 3rd & long & the other teams nickel defense is on the field why don't we run it instead of letting old noodle arm chuck another interception or underthrow an open reciever by 10 yards?

 

A mystery of life, Grasshopper. Many of us would like the answer to that question. Many of us would like the answer to an even more puzzling question, why, when we are on offense and are in 3rd and short, why don't we run it or maybe try a quick dump-off, instead of trying a low-percentage long bomb throw.

[vincec]

Dick Jauron's defense was a middle of the pack NFL defense. Many on this board said it over achieved. Let's compare them to the current group for a second.

 

DL: Kelsay and Williams are the same. Dareus replaces Stroud and M Williams replaces Schobel. Improvement or no? I say a little better. The Bills have never replaced Schobel, but Williams has unquestioned talent. Dareus is better than Stroud was at that point in his career.

 

LB: Sheppard replaces Poz, Barnett replaces Mitchell, Moats replaces Elison/Scott. Clearly worse. Worse at every position, IMO. Especially at MLB.

 

DB: Byrd is the same. Gilmore replaces McGee, Williams replaces Florence, Wilson replaces Whitner. Again, I say worse at every position although Gilmore and Williams are young and may improve.

 

So out of 11 positions, 3 are the same, one is better, one is equal and 6 are worse. And that defense was a middle-bottom unit.

 

I don't absolve Wannstedt of all blame because this defense is bad but should not be "all time" bad. But there is definitely a need for more talent.

Edited October 12, 2012 by vincec

[BillsVet]

I don't absolve Wannstedt of all blame because this defense is bad but should not be "all time" bad. But there is definitely a need for more talent.

 

The root of the problem is Nix A) not drafting defense very well, despite 5 1st-3rd round picks in 2010-11 and B) switching defenses twice in 3 seasons. When you can't add talent and compound that by switching scheme so frequently, it's hard to build a good defense. Meanwhile, Chan promoted his friend DW who appears to be about 20 years behind the times with his 4-3 under scheme that just allowed 1,200 yards in 2 games.