Marcellus Wiley talks Ralph

[clayboy54]

Interesting that Ralph actually owns the locker room, whether or not the players admit that. As owner he can do as he pleases and if the team quits because they don't like their boss' decision, then so be it. I am so very tired of reasoning why we keep losing. Its just that we do that pisses me off.

[RkFast]

Not content for TSW to be enough of a retard rodeo this week, the circus seals throw in a Flutie/Johnson "debate."

Edited October 14, 2012 by RkFast

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Not content for TSW to be enough of a retard rodeo this week, the circus seals throw in a Flutie/Johnson "debate."

 

Stating it twice didn't make your message any more well-structured.

 

Please re-write and re-submit.

 

[Nix Buddy]

The irony here is that Wade apparently caved in and started Johnson over his choice which was Flutie but then held his ground and refused to fire the special teams coach. That's where he drew the line. Not invoking principal and his authority as head coach when it came to making the decision on who to start at QB and protecting the team but rather when it came to protecting a personal friend from dismissal.

 

Maybe Wade wanted out because he was neutered and knew the one way to get fired would be to stand up to Wilson. That way he ensures he gets paid. Wade's not as dumb as you all think., I heard he's a member of MENSA.

[fan_in_tx]

Peter, it seems like there's a few things we can agree on and a few things we can't.

 

That's fine.

 

For the record, I've never blamed Rob Johnson for the Titans loss. I also think that it's not possible to say what would have happened had Flutie started. I give Flutie enormous credit for his role in keeping the Bills in Buffalo and that overrides a helluva lot.

 

Unlike you I believe that Flutie had zero to do with Rob Johnson's lack of success and I feel like Johnson wasn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback… some combination of not being able to mentally process things quickly enough and unlike you, I don't believe that he was tough enough, mentally or physically. We're talking about competition, may the best man win. Steve Young didn't mope about being treated poorly by Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers' career wasn't derailed by Brett Favre treating him like crap.

 

As for Flutie's won/lost record, you can dismiss it if you'd like but you have to know that his ability to consistently win in Buffalo (as opposed to Johnson's inability) was due to Flutie being able to avoid negative plays. In 1998 for instance Flutie threw the ball 354 times but was only sacked 12 times while Johnson threw the ball 107 times and was sacked 29 times!!!

 

You point out that Johnson had the crap kicked out of him while he was a Bill and the reason for that is that he either was really bad at playing quarterback or that his offensive linemen didn't really care to block for him… take your pick. Rob Johnson has the highest sack percentage of any quarterback who ever played in the NFL.

 

So to blame Flutie for being sacked by Armstrong is a little absurd to say the least.

 

That's about all I've got. I'll go with the guy who helped save the franchise over the guy who sucked… regardless of style points.

 

 

I recall one stat back in those days that stated RJ was sacked once every 7 plays on AVG.

 

 

For a better compairision look at 2000 where RJ was a clear starter and went 4-11 for games started. RJ again got injuried and Flutie, a year older with diminishing skills, went 4-1 with the #18th ranked D. Flutie's QB rating in 2000 was 86.5 pretty good for a backup qb.

[Rob's House]

In the end their stats were about equal!! Now when Doug was playing they called a lot of roll outs and short passes but Rob was asked to take deep drop backs and throw the ball deep with a crappy o-line.

That's the problem with looking at a stat line. It doesn't tell you much. Anyone who thinks these two guys were about equal just doesn't know football. Plain and simple. Flutie sustained drives and minimized sacks; and was pretty good in the clutch; which is exactly what you want when you have a dominant defense.

 

Let me explain how RJ padded his stats:

 

1st and 10: sacked for a loss of 10 yds. (no impact on QB rating)

2nd and 20: incomplete pass, run out of bounds, whatever

3rd and 20: completed pass for 12 yds (yaaaay)

Punt.

[artmalibu]

That's the problem with looking at a stat line. It doesn't tell you much. Anyone who thinks these two guys were about equal just doesn't know football. Plain and simple. Flutie sustained drives and minimized sacks; and was pretty good in the clutch; which is exactly what you want when you have a dominant defense.

 

Let me explain how RJ padded his stats:

 

1st and 10: sacked for a loss of 10 yds. (no impact on QB rating)

2nd and 20: incomplete pass, run out of bounds, whatever

3rd and 20: completed pass for 12 yds (yaaaay)

Punt.

 

Ok, Mr football god, considering that neither one did anything in the NFL before or after playing in Buffalo tells the story. Again if Doug had to run the plays the Rod did the story would be much different, doug had a terrible deep ball and not enough arm strength to throw to the flats. Doug got to go the the Charges with a top defense and a top running attack the next year to do nothing!! An ideal place to play QB and he did nothing.

 

Its funny how the football know-it-alls will be the first to quote the stats to support ideas, and also the first to say the stats dont tell the whole story!!

[Rob's House]

Ok, Mr football god, considering that neither one did anything in the NFL before or after playing in Buffalo tells the story. Again if Doug had to run the plays the Rod did the story would be much different, doug had a terrible deep ball and not enough arm strength to throw to the flats. Doug got to go the the Charges with a top defense and a top running attack the next year to do nothing!! An ideal place to play QB and he did nothing.

 

Its funny how the football know-it-alls will be the first to quote the stats to support ideas, and also the first to say the stats dont tell the whole story!!

I didn't claim to be a football God, I'm just capable of seeing more than 3 feet beyond the tip of my nose. The fact that you claim the SD team that Flutie went to was an ideal place to play football just shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Was it the pourous offensive line, no-name journeyman WRs, or rookie Ladanian Tomlinson averaging 3.5 ypc that made it so ideal?

[Adam]

 

That's the problem with looking at a stat line. It doesn't tell you much. Anyone who thinks these two guys were about equal just doesn't know football. Plain and simple. Flutie sustained drives and minimized sacks; and was pretty good in the clutch; which is exactly what you want when you have a dominant defense.

 

Let me explain how RJ padded his stats:

 

1st and 10: sacked for a loss of 10 yds. (no impact on QB rating)

2nd and 20: incomplete pass, run out of bounds, whatever

3rd and 20: completed pass for 12 yds (yaaaay)

Punt.

Our team maintained drives better when Flutie was in there. Both quarterbacks were absolute jokes. We weren't going anywhere with either of them. Drew Bledsoe was the last real quarterback we had, and Jim Kelly, before that.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Ok, Mr football god, considering that neither one did anything in the NFL before or after playing in Buffalo tells the story.

 

Actually you're incorrect.

 

FWIW, Flutie is arguably the greatest quarterback in CFL history (Wiki):

 

 

"Flutie played in Canadian Football League for 8 years. He is revered as one of the greatest quarterbacks ever to play Canadian football. In 1990 he signed with the BC Lions for a two-year contract reportedly worth $350,000 a season. At the time he was the highest paid player in the CFL. Flutie struggled in his first season, which would be his only losing season in the CFL. Over the next seven years he would go 99-27 as a starter. In his second season, he threw for a record 6,619 yards on 466 completions. Flutie was rewarded with a reported million-dollar salary with the Calgary Stampeders.

Flutie won his first Grey Cup in 1992 with the Stampeders. He was named the Grey Cup MVP.

During his last years in Calgary, Flutie's backup was Jeff Garcia, who later went on to start for the NFL's San Francisco 49ers. Flutie won two more Grey Cups with the Toronto Argonauts, in 1996 (The Snow Bowl) and 1997, before signing with the Buffalo Bills of the National Football League in 1998. Prior to his final two Grey Cup victories with the Argonauts, Flutie was hampered by the opinion, supported by the media, that he was a quarterback who could not win in cold weather. In both 1993 and 1994, the Stampeders had the best record in the league, but lost the Western Final each year at home in freezing conditions. After first refusing to wear gloves in freezing temperatures, in later years Flutie adapted to throwing with gloves in cold weather.

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. Flutie holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds four of the CFL's top five highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named the CFL's Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991–1994, and 1996–1997).

On November 17, 2006, Flutie was named the greatest Canadian Football League player of all time from a top 50 list of CFL players conducted by TSN. In 2007 he was named to Canada's Sports Hall of Fame, the first non-Canadian to be inducted."

 

So Flutie actually did a ton "before playing in Buffalo." In fact his whole prime occurred BEFORE he joined the Bills and he was actually a player in decline by the time he rescued the Bills franchise. Like Hall of Famer Warren Moon and Pro Bowler Jeff Garcia, Flutie had a great CFL career.

 

Rob Johnson on the other hand… founded a Quarterback Academy with his father…

 

Our team maintained drives better when Flutie was in there. Both quarterbacks were absolute jokes. We weren't going anywhere with either of them. Drew Bledsoe was the last real quarterback we had, and Jim Kelly, before that.

 

You take Bledsoe and I'll take Flutie.

 

We'll see who wins more games.

 

Yes, Rob Johnson was a joke.

Edited October 14, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[bills44]

Actually you're incorrect.

 

FWIW, Flutie is arguably the greatest quarterback in CFL history (Wiki):

 

 

"Flutie played in Canadian Football League for 8 years. He is revered as one of the greatest quarterbacks ever to play Canadian football. In 1990 he signed with the BC Lions for a two-year contract reportedly worth $350,000 a season. At the time he was the highest paid player in the CFL. Flutie struggled in his first season, which would be his only losing season in the CFL. Over the next seven years he would go 99-27 as a starter. In his second season, he threw for a record 6,619 yards on 466 completions. Flutie was rewarded with a reported million-dollar salary with the Calgary Stampeders.

Flutie won his first Grey Cup in 1992 with the Stampeders. He was named the Grey Cup MVP.

During his last years in Calgary, Flutie's backup was Jeff Garcia, who later went on to start for the NFL's San Francisco 49ers. Flutie won two more Grey Cups with the Toronto Argonauts, in 1996 (The Snow Bowl) and 1997, before signing with the Buffalo Bills of the National Football League in 1998. Prior to his final two Grey Cup victories with the Argonauts, Flutie was hampered by the opinion, supported by the media, that he was a quarterback who could not win in cold weather. In both 1993 and 1994, the Stampeders had the best record in the league, but lost the Western Final each year at home in freezing conditions. After first refusing to wear gloves in freezing temperatures, in later years Flutie adapted to throwing with gloves in cold weather.

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. Flutie holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds four of the CFL's top five highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named the CFL's Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991–1994, and 1996–1997).

On November 17, 2006, Flutie was named the greatest Canadian Football League player of all time from a top 50 list of CFL players conducted by TSN. In 2007 he was named to Canada's Sports Hall of Fame, the first non-Canadian to be inducted."

 

So Flutie actually did a ton "before playing in Buffalo." In fact his whole prime occurred BEFORE he joined the Bills and he was actually a player in decline by the time he rescued the Bills franchise. Like Hall of Famer Warren Moon and Pro Bowler Jeff Garcia, Flutie had a great CFL career.

 

Rob Johnson on the other hand… founded a Quarterback Academy with his father…

 

 

 

You take Bledsoe and I'll take Flutie.

 

We'll see who wins more games.

 

Yes, Rob Johnson was a joke.

 

The poster made reference to the NFL only, not the CFL.

 

Pretty sure that Bledsoe won far more games in the NFL than did Flutie. Did Flutie even win a post-season game in the NFL?

[Adam]

 

 

Actually you're incorrect.

 

FWIW, Flutie is arguably the greatest quarterback in CFL history (Wiki):

 

 

"Flutie played in Canadian Football League for 8 years. He is revered as one of the greatest quarterbacks ever to play Canadian football. In 1990 he signed with the BC Lions for a two-year contract reportedly worth $350,000 a season. At the time he was the highest paid player in the CFL. Flutie struggled in his first season, which would be his only losing season in the CFL. Over the next seven years he would go 99-27 as a starter. In his second season, he threw for a record 6,619 yards on 466 completions. Flutie was rewarded with a reported million-dollar salary with the Calgary Stampeders.

Flutie won his first Grey Cup in 1992 with the Stampeders. He was named the Grey Cup MVP.

During his last years in Calgary, Flutie's backup was Jeff Garcia, who later went on to start for the NFL's San Francisco 49ers. Flutie won two more Grey Cups with the Toronto Argonauts, in 1996 (The Snow Bowl) and 1997, before signing with the Buffalo Bills of the National Football League in 1998. Prior to his final two Grey Cup victories with the Argonauts, Flutie was hampered by the opinion, supported by the media, that he was a quarterback who could not win in cold weather. In both 1993 and 1994, the Stampeders had the best record in the league, but lost the Western Final each year at home in freezing conditions. After first refusing to wear gloves in freezing temperatures, in later years Flutie adapted to throwing with gloves in cold weather.

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. Flutie holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds four of the CFL's top five highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named the CFL's Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991–1994, and 1996–1997).

On November 17, 2006, Flutie was named the greatest Canadian Football League player of all time from a top 50 list of CFL players conducted by TSN. In 2007 he was named to Canada's Sports Hall of Fame, the first non-Canadian to be inducted."

 

So Flutie actually did a ton "before playing in Buffalo." In fact his whole prime occurred BEFORE he joined the Bills and he was actually a player in decline by the time he rescued the Bills franchise. Like Hall of Famer Warren Moon and Pro Bowler Jeff Garcia, Flutie had a great CFL career.

 

Rob Johnson on the other hand… founded a Quarterback Academy with his father…

 

 

 

You take Bledsoe and I'll take Flutie.

 

We'll see who wins more games.

 

Yes, Rob Johnson was a joke.

I will. We won games with Bledsoe that we wouldn't have even been competitive in with the guy who did well in the high school type league. Did New England go to the Super Bowl with the running freak who had a noodle arm?

[bruceisloose78]

I remember Nevergiveup said that Ralph interjects from time to time and forces his hand, always with "devastating results" I think is the term he used. I'm not sure how involved ralph is now but he is the major root of all the bills ineptitude. I loathe him.

[dayman]

I can't still care about this....been too long...

[Doc]

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-gRYXg7D08

Never knew McNair's stats were that horrible in that game. Pretty telling, considering he was at home and I don't recall his OL being anywhere near as banged-up as the Bills' was.

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

1. Your logic is weak. There is no way you can make anyone believe that Johnson played well Because another QB didn't play well. McNair did not have a good game because of our D.

2. Please look up the sack stats for Flutie vs Johnson. One of the reasons Flutie was loved is becasue we all knew that our O-line was weak. Flutie put up points despite a Bad o-line.

3. Hey, lots of us have liked/loved some of our past QB's. Flutie, Johnson, Trent Edwards, Losman etc etc. I for one have really liked more than one of these. However I am smart enough to realize that when they leave the Bills and either do nothing or never play again for the rest of their lives, they were probably never very good. Right now Trent, Losman and your guy Johnson seem to fit that bill.

To say that it was coaching would be foolish, don't you think??

[Doc]

Okay, here's a different angle. Did Steve McNair win that game?

[Adam]

Okay, here's a different angle. Did Steve McNair win that game?

No. Tennessee did. Quarterbacks don't get credit for wins.

[thewildrabbit]

I remember Nevergiveup said that Ralph interjects from time to time and forces his hand, always with "devastating results" I think is the term he used. I'm not sure how involved ralph is now but he is the major root of all the bills ineptitude. I loathe him.

Even tho the thread was started about RW it has been hijacked by the Flutie / Rob Johnson debaters...dunno why.

 

Anyway, yea RW is his own worst enemy in terms of winning, but then he really doesn't care that much about winning

[Rico]

No. Tennessee did. Quarterbacks don't get credit for wins.

Sure they do.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaSt00.htm

Playoff Record as Starting QB: 1999 (3-1), 2000 (0-1), 2002 (1-1), 2003 (1-1), 2006 (0-1)