Marcellus Wiley talks Ralph

[Fan in San Diego]

I agree the RW has been a big part of the problems for decades now. Only a new only will cure this problem. Sad thing is that the team will probably move after he passes.The upside is that if they move to LA, I will be able to go to home games.

[tennesseeboy]

yeah..and we are stuck with the curse of Doug Flutie ever since......

[Peter]

Seriously! That's the Friggin' "Logic" that kills me. Such a Big Johnson lover that you somehow have to say that McNair's bad stats for this game somehow prove ........I don't know what but would love to hear it. I guess, if I try to follow your logic: Johnson was good in this game because even though his stats were awful, he threw for less than 150 yards and zero touchdowns, he is still somehow a very good QB or had a very good game?

 

 

 

This ^^^ "I hate when facts get in the way of my logic"

 

 

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-gRYXg7D08

Edited October 11, 2012 by Peter

[Maybe Someday]

The thing I hate most about Doug Flutie??? He made me root for Rob Johnson. I’ll never forgive him for that.

[Livinginthepast]

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-gRYXg7D08

 

As others have pointed out and the video clearly shows. Thurman misses the block on Armstrong. How can anyone pin that play on Flutie? Thurman got tossed aside and fell down. The least he could have done is stayed on his feet to buy his QB some time.

 

As for the Steve McNair question he had a pretty ineffective game against a really good defence It was hardly indicative of the rest of his career. As for the conditions, they were not a factor. The temperature was an above freezing 37F and there was almost no wind. It rained but not a downpour. Conditions were not impact full on the game. RJ had a mediocre game against a mid ranked defence He managed the game enough for us to stay in it and get us ahead through Christie at the end. He could have, and should have done a lot better if he was up to snuff. In the final analysis this game was one of the "better" performances by RJ in his career. A career however that was abysmal.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

That reaction sounds a bit over the top. The whole locker room started screaming? Geez, I wouldn't have wanted to be Rob Johnson at that point. Anyhow, ironically, he did enough to win that game. I always wonder what would have happened next if we did win that game.

 

Over the top? It's completely exaggerated. It probably was more like Wiley turning to the guy standing next to him and saying, "huh?" and that was it.

 

Wiley was also young--maybe even a rookie?--so I'm not sure I would consider him to be the best position to characterize the Bills' locker room

[Peter]

As others have pointed out and the video clearly shows. Thurman misses the block on Armstrong. How can anyone pin that play on Flutie? Thurman got tossed aside and fell down. The least he could have done is stayed on his feet to buy his QB some time.

 

As for the Steve McNair question he had a pretty ineffective game against a really good defence It was hardly indicative of the rest of his career. As for the conditions, they were not a factor. The temperature was an above freezing 37F and there was almost no wind. It rained but not a downpour. Conditions were not impact full on the game. RJ had a mediocre game against a mid ranked defence He managed the game enough for us to stay in it and get us ahead through Christie at the end. He could have, and should have done a lot better if he was up to snuff. In the final analysis this game was one of the "better" performances by RJ in his career. A career however that was abysmal.

 

Flutie had all the time he needed. As the video shows, he even pump faked. Certainly, he should have seen the Dolphins best rusher coming at him from his non blind side.

 

I also find it odd that you and at least one other person would attempt to blame this all on Thurman. Flutie had all the time that he needed. The Flutie magic pixie dust was not there.

 

By the way, that mid ranked Titans defense (or as the Canadian Flutie fans say "defence") held the 13-3 Colts to 16 points a week later on the road in the Divisional playoff game, the 14-2 Jaguars to 14 points two weeks later in the AFC Championsip game on the road, and held the "Greatest Show on Turf" to only 23 points in the Super Bowl.

 

The Titans were undefeated at home that year and also had 54 sacks. By contrast, our offensive line was really banged up going into the game (Fina, Hicks, and Ostroski), and, our starting left tackle, John Fina had to leave the game after just two series.

 

For the record, I am not saying that RJ had a great passing game. Neither QB did. It was that kind of game. RJ played well enough under difficult circumstances to win the game. The point is that people (including Flutie's friend Wiley) repeatedly say - "If only we played Flutie, we would have won the game." That is BS. We had the game won without Flutie. We did not "lose" the game because Flutie did not play. Flutie's fumble the year before showed that it was possible to lose a playoff game even with him at QB notwithstanding the magic pixie dust.

[Best Player Available]

The thing I hate most about Doug Flutie??? He made me root for Rob Johnson. I’ll never forgive him for that.

 

yes, but Fluite is the reason the Buffalo Bills still play in Buffalo So for that I thank him.......... What? Wait.........maybe I should edit this?

[8-8 Forever?]

Let's put things in perspective. Wiley was good friends with Flutie. Rob Johnson is not the reason why we "lost" the game against the Titans.

 

People also seem to forget about Flutie's performance at the end of the playoff game in Miami against the Dolphins.

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

[Adam]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

 

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

That isn't either guys record, cause that stat doesn't exist.

[Peter]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

 

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

 

Actually, I love Canada and Canadians. I have spent A LOT of time in Canada. My point regarding that (because you seem to have missed it) was that there were many Canadian Flutie fans (because of his time in the CFL) who were Flutie fans first and foremost rather than Buffalo Bills fans.

 

Your win/loss stat is a corollary of that "Flute just wins" that the Flutopians always would say back in the day, which is a corollary of Flutie's use of the pronouns "I" after wins and "we" after losses. That is why he was not particularly well liked by several Buffalo Bills at the time.

 

In case you did not read my posts, I have stated that Flutie had some good games for the Bills. He also had some flaws. RJ also had some flaws. I had hoped that RJ would be able to develop into the kind of QB some of us thought he could be. That turned out not to be possible with Flutie on the team -- especially given that segments of the "fan" base were so wrapped up with Flutie they cheered when he got hurt.

 

The subject of the original post was Wiley's (Flutie's friend) comments about the Titans playoff game. RJ played well enough to win. We did not "lose" the game because of RJ. No one can say that we would have won that game if Flutie had played. In fact, Flutie showed the year before that, notwithstanding the "Flutie magic," it was possible for the Bills to lose a playoff game with him as the QB -- especially when he fumbled the ball at the most critical time of the game. If RJ had done the same thing in the Dolphin playoff game, that is all the Flutopians would be talking about (as opposed to the contrived argument that it had to be all Thurman's or Ostroski's fault).

 

To use your stat, both Flutie and RJ had the same playoff record with the Bills: 0-1.

 

I appreciate what Flutie did on the field for the Bills. I do not appreciate some of the things that went on behind the scenes or the hatred that many of his followers had/have for RJ. Say what you will about RJ, the guy showed a lot of courage getting the **** kicked out of him only to have some "fans" cheer when he got hurt. At the time, I wondered what his mother who was from Buffalo thought about that.

 

We had two good QBs who brought different talents to the game. One would have thought it would have been a good thing for the team. Instead, it was destructive -- so destructive that we are still arguing about it.

 

The sad thing is that I would take either of those QBs now rather than what we have now given Fitz's performance so far this year. I can only hope that Fitz somehow returns to what we saw at the beginning of last year - hopefully beginning Sunday.

 

Just my two cents.

[BuffOrange]

No one hates Flutie. The hate is for the cult that sprung up around Flutie, inflating someone who had some good games into a god.

 

PTR

 

Probably your best post imo.

 

Of all the countless 13-10 games he won, the last drive always mattered more than his stat line for the cult. But somehow for the Miami playoff game it's "oh, well, not his fault he had good stats". At least pretend to hide the gross hypocrisy?

 

The Bills offense exceeded 17 points in 2 of 8 road games in 1999. And yet in toughest road game of all against the best defense we played by a mile, 16 points was a surprising outlier that would've been easily surpassed by the other guy playing. Yah, sure.

[Livinginthepast]

Flutie had all the time he needed. As the video shows, he even pump faked. Certainly, he should have seen the Dolphins best rusher coming at him from his non blind side.

 

I also find it odd that you and at least one other person would attempt to blame this all on Thurman. Flutie had all the time that he needed. The Flutie magic pixie dust was not there.

 

By the way, that mid ranked Titans defense (or as the Canadian Flutie fans say "defence") held the 13-3 Colts to 16 points a week later on the road in the Divisional playoff game, the 14-2 Jaguars to 14 points two weeks later in the AFC Championsip game on the road, and held the "Greatest Show on Turf" to only 23 points in the Super Bowl.

 

The Titans were undefeated at home that year and also had 54 sacks. By contrast, our offensive line was really banged up going into the game (Fina, Hicks, and Ostroski), and, our starting left tackle, John Fina had to leave the game after just two series.

 

For the record, I am not saying that RJ had a great passing game. Neither QB did. It was that kind of game. RJ played well enough under difficult circumstances to win the game. The point is that people (including Flutie's friend Wiley) repeatedly say - "If only we played Flutie, we would have won the game." That is BS. We had the game won without Flutie. We did not "lose" the game because Flutie did not play. Flutie's fumble the year before showed that it was possible to lose a playoff game even with him at QB notwithstanding the magic pixie dust.

 

Well I don’t think we are going to agree on this question, but that is the fun of the discussion. Actually talking about this has rekindled memories of when the Bills actually mattered and has distracted me from the train wreck of the past decade +.

 

I still believe that you are being unduly harsh on Flutie for that fumble in the Dolphins game. I don’t think any QB in football could take such a vicious shot and hold onto the ball! Watching it again you can clearly see that Thurman utterly fails on the block of Armstrong. Thurman pushes Armstrong behind and to the right of Flutie but falls flat on his face in the process. No Qb would ever see a guy in Armstrong’s position in their peripheral vision hence the reason that Flutie gets absolutely drilled by Armstrong. Had Flutie even had an inkling that Armstrong was there he would have done his usual evasion tactics but he probably assumed that Thurman had him. Which in retrospect he had every reason to believe because Thurman was a decent blocker in pass protection. Flutie simply didn’t have the time to throw and if you watch it in real time (not your Youtube clip) it’s only a couple of seconds from the hike to the hit.

 

In regards to the ongoing Flutie Johnson debate, what I have never understood, even 13 years later , is why people continue to defend RJ when he sucked, was clueless and could not take a hit. At the time I remember so many people whining in the call in shows about how Flutie was hurting RJ’s self-esteem with mean comments as if RJ was a sensitive preschooler. I still cannot understand why people were so concerned with protecting a professional athlete’s “fragile psyche” when it was so painfully obvious that he was fraud as an NFL QB. The bottom line is Flutie didn’t ruin RJ’s potential, RJ mystifyingly convinced people he had the tools to be an all-star when it was all a mirage.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Livinginthepast

[Rico]

That isn't either guys record, cause that stat doesn't exist.

Sure it does, it is the only QB stat that matters.

 

8th column from the left...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlutDo00.htm

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnRo00.htm

[Thisistheyear]

That reaction sounds a bit over the top. The whole locker room started screaming? Geez, I wouldn't have wanted to be Rob Johnson at that point. Anyhow, ironically, he did enough to win that game. I always wonder what would have happened next if we did win that game.

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

[BuffBill]

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

Even if they had won, it certainly wouldn't have been because of Rob Johnson, he was 10 of 22 with 131 yards. If they would have won it would have been because of the defense. What is funny is the Bills this past sunday in SF, gave up one and a half times the yards to the 49ers as there were total yards by both teams in that game (413 total yards). The Bills defense gave up a one yard McNair TD run and a couple field goals. They still win if Flutie starts, if not for just the fact that he wouldn't have taken that safety or all of the other 6 sacks that Surfer Boy took that day.

 

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

Someone else on here said it already, but like or hate Flutie, if you are a Bills fan and have half a brain, you can thank him for the Bills still being in Buffalo. When he came in against Jacksonville and scored the game winning TD on that naked bootleg, it got a pulse going in this franchise that was almost non-existent at that time. Edited October 12, 2012 by BuffBill

[Peter]

 

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

 

He may have thought he owned that locker room and that is part of why he rubbed people players the wrong way. I invite you to ask Bruce, Andre, and Thurman whether they thought Flutie "owned" that locker room and the ask them what they thought about him.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Peter, it seems like there's a few things we can agree on and a few things we can't.

 

That's fine.

 

For the record, I've never blamed Rob Johnson for the Titans loss. I also think that it's not possible to say what would have happened had Flutie started. I give Flutie enormous credit for his role in keeping the Bills in Buffalo and that overrides a helluva lot.

 

Unlike you I believe that Flutie had zero to do with Rob Johnson's lack of success and I feel like Johnson wasn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback… some combination of not being able to mentally process things quickly enough and unlike you, I don't believe that he was tough enough, mentally or physically. We're talking about competition, may the best man win. Steve Young didn't mope about being treated poorly by Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers' career wasn't derailed by Brett Favre treating him like crap.

 

As for Flutie's won/lost record, you can dismiss it if you'd like but you have to know that his ability to consistently win in Buffalo (as opposed to Johnson's inability) was due to Flutie being able to avoid negative plays. In 1998 for instance Flutie threw the ball 354 times but was only sacked 12 times while Johnson threw the ball 107 times and was sacked 29 times!!!

 

You point out that Johnson had the crap kicked out of him while he was a Bill and the reason for that is that he either was really bad at playing quarterback or that his offensive linemen didn't really care to block for him… take your pick. Rob Johnson has the highest sack percentage of any quarterback who ever played in the NFL.

 

So to blame Flutie for being sacked by Armstrong is a little absurd to say the least.

 

That's about all I've got. I'll go with the guy who helped save the franchise over the guy who sucked… regardless of style points.

[artmalibu]

In the end their stats were about equal!! Now when Doug was playing they called a lot of roll outs and short passes but Rob was asked to take deep drop backs and throw the ball deep with a crappy o-line.

Edited October 14, 2012 by artmalibu