Russell Wilson will never be elite

[JohnC]

its a valid point to bring up, and anyone throwing it out the window is being unfair. even the seahawks passed on their franchise multiple times. if anyone in the nfl thought it to be a clear and obvious decision it wouldve been made much earlier. you like to have your guys be the ones that see those values, but.... it happens. its incredibly disappointing when it does, but if seattle really 100% thought that they were picking up what they got, they should fire their gm for not doing it sooner and risking missing out.

 

i wouldve been happy as anyone with him in the third, and its a shame we didnt get him but theres a bit of irrational anger (fairly) mixed into a lot of the thread.

 

 

 

100% of teams could have used the asset he turned out to be. easily. at the very least he couldve been a solid, cheap, backup until he got traded for a ransom.

 

When you talke about "irrational anger" you make it clear that you don't even understand what the issue is. Passing on Russell Wilson is a miniscule part of the frustration with the befuddled GM. The bigger context and the real issue is that dopey Ralph Wilson selected someone who was clearly ill-equipped for the job. He certainly was a better GM candidate than Levy but is that the standard?

 

Passing on Wilson in the third round for a track receiver was bad enough. But that wasn't the problem. He passed on numerous high quality candidates such as Kaepernick, Dalton, Wilson and Cousins over two years when his team was in desperate need for a young qb in the pipeline. Are you suggesting that it was unreasonable for a GM who doesn't have a legitimate starting qb on his roster demonstrate some urgency in finding a reasonable candidate for the roster? What accentuates Nix's ineptitude is that he felt that the feckless Fitz was a good enough qb to lockup with a rich contract. His judgment that Fitz was a legitimate starting qb was grossly off the mark.

 

But there is more to the Nix dismal record that needs to be scrutinized: His overall three year draft record. In my estimation it was below average.In addition, the coach who was scapegoated and lost his job was the HC he hired. Do you consider that an inspired hire? I don't. One of the GM's most important tasks is to hire a HC. He flubbed it.

 

Let's not be sidetracked with useless arguments that other teams also passed on Wilson or other appealing prospects. A large number of teams already had their franchise qbs in place. The Bills didn't. They haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for more than a generation. Did Nix demonstrate any urgency? In three years the qbs on the roster were Fitz, Thigpen, T. Jackson, Vince Young and Levi Brown. That low scale buch is embarrassing enough for a CFL team, let alone an NFL team.

 

What is most worrissome to me is that the clueless Nix "might" be involved in the qb search in this year's draft. Why? Would you go to a doctor who screwed up a surgery and then ask him to fix the problem he created? Would you allow a financial advisor who blew all your money to then manage your retirement fund? Would you rehire a plumber to do additional work for you when the toilet he installed for you shoots water up your arse everytime you flush? My obvious point is why would you allow someone who has demonstrated that he is mediocre at his craft be the person entrusted with making the most important draft decision for your struggling franchise?

 

As I stated in a prior posting Nix is part of the Ralph Wilson era. He has had more than a fair opportunity to run the operation. His record by any measure is stupendously bad. In my view Brandon had an opportunity to start fresh and move this franchise forward. For whatever reason he didn't do so. That was a mistake.

[GG]

One way of changing the culture of a losing franchise is to hold people accountable for their performances. Brandon made a mistake both substatively and symbolicly when he didn't summarily fire Nix and demonstrate to the fanbase that under his stewardship things are going to be dramatically different.

 

While I agree with most of what you posted, I do not think that you are correct about the above. As the time goes on, I am more convinced that Brandon had to accept easing out of Nix in order to get control. I think it was an acceptable compromise to move the franchise forward.

 

I also think that the rest of the league believes that the power is now with Brandon and Whaley, and that is all that matters. It would shock me if buddy is the one pulling the card in April.

[stinky finger]

JohnC ....excellent, excellent post.

[JohnC]

While I agree with most of what you posted, I do not think that you are correct about the above. As the time goes on, I am more convinced that Brandon had to accept easing out of Nix in order to get control. I think it was an acceptable compromise to move the franchise forward.

 

I also think that the rest of the league believes that the power is now with Brandon and Whaley, and that is all that matters. It would shock me if buddy is the one pulling the card in April.

 

I don't don't believe that there were conditions placed on Brandon when he took control of the football operation. The owner was at a stage where he couldn't be involved for health reasons. The owner was comfortable handing off the responsibilities to someone he trusted. My view is that Brandon didn't want to unceremoneously dump Nix and publicly embarrass him. Brandon stated that he had a close relationship with him. I'm speculating that Nix's authority has been diminished to the point that he isn't making the important decisions. The HC selection appears to me the type of selection that Nix wouldn't make. Again, that is a guess.

[mannc]

Name every single franchise QB, or even very good QB 5'11" and under (he's 5'10 5/8) in the NFL in the last 30 years. To say GMs should have known is just rubbish.

How many outstanding (passing) college QBs under 6 feet tall have been given a chance to play in the NFL and subsequently failed because they were too short? For the heck of it, off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few shorter QBs who played very well in the NFL--Brees, Flutie, Moon, and Theismann. The last three were not initially given a chance to play in the NFL because they were too short, but subsequently proved that they can play, and play well.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

How many outstanding (passing) college QBs under 6 feet tall have been given a chance to play in the NFL and subsequently failed because they were too short? For the heck of it, off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few shorter QBs who played very well in the NFL--Brees, Flutie, Moon, and Theismann. The last three were not initially given a chance to play in the NFL because they were too short, but subsequently proved that they can play, and play well.

 

Moon was probably not given much of a chance because back in 1978 when he was a rookie, NFL teams didn't give many if any opportunities to black quarterbacks.

 

Moon was not a short player.

 

Good post though. I think lots of players are never even given a fair shake because of their less-than-ideal measurables.

[Kelly the Dog]

How many outstanding (passing) college QBs under 6 feet tall have been given a chance to play in the NFL and subsequently failed because they were too short? For the heck of it, off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few shorter QBs who played very well in the NFL--Brees, Flutie, Moon, and Theismann. The last three were not initially given a chance to play in the NFL because they were too short, but subsequently proved that they can play, and play well.

Most of the good ones were brought into camps and then cut when they proved they couldn't play. Or they gave up themselves because they knew they couldn't play. Flutie was the only one you mentioned under 5'11. Theisman was 6'0", Moon was 6' 3". Brees is 6'0". Flutie was okay, he wasn't a franchise QB (and I was a big Flutie fan).

 

Russell Wilson is a distinct, unique player. I am so sick of this talk that just because he is short than means other short quarterbacks can do it. There aren't guys like him and you cannot name a single player with the attributes that Russell Wilson brought to the table, and again, all of the GMs knew and again, all of the GMs still didn't think he could do it like he did, including the Seahawks (otherwise they would have drafted him in the first or second round).

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I am so sick of this talk that just because he is short than means other short quarterbacks can do it.

 

 

Well Kelly, I'm more sick of atypical players being routinely passed over in pro sports because they don't fit the prototype.

 

There is tons of patronage, nepotism, and politics involved in sports at all levels. I've seen it and I've heard and read about it.

 

There are terms like "passing the eyeball test" "looking the part" and "having good face" (from Moneyball) which indicate to me at least that a lot of personnel evaluators and decision makers lack the courage or independence of thought to give a fair shake to players who don't fit the prototype.

 

We have no way of knowing but my belief is that there are more short quarterbacks that never got a chance as opposed to your suggestion that they were cut when "they proved they couldn't play."

 

Also, there's a difference between bringing someone into camp and actually giving them a legitimate chance to compete for a job. As we all know, there are a lot of supposed "competitions" which are anything but.

 

And this doesn't even address how many short quarterbacks or non-prototypical players are steered away from positions in college or high school, before they are not given the chance to compete in the pros.

 

JMO.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Well Kelly, I'm more sick of atypical players being routinely passed over in pro sports because they don't fit the prototype.

 

There is tons of patronage, nepotism, and politics involved in sports at all levels. I've seen it and I've heard and read about it.

 

There are terms like "passing the eyeball test" "looking the part" and "having good face" (from Moneyball) which indicate to me at least that a lot of personnel evaluators and decision makers lack the courage or independence of thought to give a fair shake to players who don't fit the prototype.

 

We have no way of knowing but my belief is that there are more short quarterbacks that never got a chance as opposed to your suggestion that they were cut when "they proved they couldn't play."

 

Also, there's a difference between bringing someone into camp and actually giving them a legitimate chance to compete for a job. As we all know, there are a lot of supposed "competitions" which are anything but.

 

And this doesn't even address how many short quarterbacks or non-prototypical players are steered away from positions in college or high school, before they are not given the chance to compete in the pros.

 

JMO.

Name one 5'11" and under QB who was great in college and you think could have been a great pro that was never given a tryout. I can't think of one, perhaps they were out there.

 

Also, this was very typical of the scouting reports on Russell Wilson, and from one of the better sites..

Accuracy: Was the nation's most efficient quarterback in 2011, earning a 191.78 QB rating -- over 22 points higher than the next highest rated QB from a pro-style offense (Andrew Luck)... Showcased the ability to consistently throw receivers open versus single coverage as a senior, demonstrating impressive improvement in this area from his time at NC State... Delivers a tight spiral that is easily tracked and caught. Typically hits his receivers in stride whether on zipped crossing routes, touch passes dropped over the top of defenders or line drives leading receivers out of bounds on the deep out. Arm Strength: Arguably Wilson's most impressive trait, especially considering his lack of ideal size. Can easily make every NFL throw, showing the ability to drive the football to the sideline on a line from the opposite hash. Can send the ball 40-50 yards downfield with a flick of his wrist. Setup/Release: Efficient set-up and delivery of the ball. Experienced taking snaps from under center and shotgun. Drops back quickly and shows good rhythm and timing despite limited experience playing with Wisconsin's receivers, planting his back foot and driving the quick slant. Has a quick, over the top release and does an excellent job of finding clear passing lanes from which to throw. Reading Defenses: Cerebral quarterback who is rarely fooled by coverage. Makes strong pre-snap reads and demonstrated improvement as a senior in manipulating the defense with his eyes and legs. Shows good poise in a muddy pocket, stepping up to avoid the rush and challenging linebackers to either commit to stopping him from scrambling or dropping off to cover receivers behind them. Is more than willing to scramble but does a nice job of keeping his eyes downfield until the last possible second. On The Move: Very good elusiveness and speed for the position but his most impressive trait may be his vision. Anticipates pressure well and does a nice job of forcing the defense to commit and taking advantage of the weakness exposed once they do. Very good mobility for bootlegs and roll outs, showing good accuracy and arm strength to fire passes downfield. Intangibles: Voted a team captain at NC State and Wisconsin... Attempted 379 passes between interceptions -- the longest streak in NCAA history -- over a two year span of 13 games in 2009-10. Finished his collegiate career 30-20, including 11-3 as a senior... Wilson was drafted in the fourth round of the 2009 MLB draft by the Colorado Rockies. The second baseman hit .229 with five home runs and 26 RBIs in the Northwest and South Atlantic leagues. Wilson notified the Rockies in January 2012 that he will pursue playing in the NFL over baseball... Good bloodlines. His father, the late Harrison Wilson III, played football and baseball at Dartmouth and spent time on the San Diego Chargers' practice squad.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Like I said in my post (bolded), many of these players are steered away from quarterbacking in high school and college. They're seen as too short or such good athletes that the coaches would rather play them at another position.

 

There are probably guys that were never given the chance to become a Russell Wilson-type quarterback due to prejudices associated with measurables.

 

I think it's a shame.

 

As for Wilson it's a known fact that some pro scouts said he would have been a Top 5 pick had he been a few inches taller.

 

Hopefully Wilson's success paves the way for a bit more open-mindedness.

[NoSaint]

Like I said in my post (bolded), many of these players are steered away from quarterbacking in high school and college. They're seen as too short or such good athletes that the coaches would rather play them at another position.

 

There are probably guys that were never given the chance to become a Russell Wilson-type quarterback due to prejudices associated with measurables.

 

I think it's a shame.

 

As for Wilson it's a known fact that some pro scouts said he would have been a Top 5 pick had he been a few inches taller.

 

Hopefully Wilson's success paves the way for a bit more open-mindedness.

 

Maybe instead of a shame it's actually great as it gives them the best shot to succeed?

 

Two sides to the coin.

Edited January 15, 2013 by NoSaint

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Maybe instead of a shame it's actually great as it gives them the best shot to succeed?

 

Two sides to the coin.

 

I understand your point but I'm talking about steering a guy who might have been a good quarterback into a different position.

 

My premise is that there is more bad to this (discrimination by measurables) than good.

 

That's why I took exception to Kelly's post.

 

It's certainly a case by case deal and one where we'll never know the true accounting.

[Kelly the Dog]

I understand your point but I'm talking about steering a guy who might have been a good quarterback into a different position.

 

My premise is that there is more bad to this (discrimination by measurables) than good.

 

That's why I took exception to Kelly's post.

 

It's certainly a case by case deal and one where we'll never know the true accounting.

I really don't see what the difference is between this and, say, you can't play DE in this league if you are 235 pounds. There is one guy, Jason Taylor, who excelled as a skinny DE. There may have been more who were 235 or less but I can't think of one (Taylor IIRC was somewhere between 235-245). You just can't play that position because of your size; it's too big a detriment. There are "once in a generation" players that do, but they are literally once in a generation because there is only one of them every 20-25 years. That's what Russell Wilson is. Look at that scouting report: He excelled at everything.

 

I notice that you didn't mention any 5'11" or smaller players that deserved a shot but never got one.

[GG]

I really don't see what the difference is between this and, say, you can't play DE in this league if you are 235 pounds. There is one guy, Jason Taylor, who excelled as a skinny DE. There may have been more who were 235 or less but I can't think of one (Taylor IIRC was somewhere between 235-245). You just can't play that position because of your size; it's too big a detriment. There are "once in a generation" players that do, but they are literally once in a generation because there is only one of them every 20-25 years. That's what Russell Wilson is. Look at that scouting report: He excelled at everything.

 

I notice that you didn't mention any 5'11" or smaller players that deserved a shot but never got one.

 

Arrgh. Stop dragging me into this thread.

 

You are right, you can't teach size & speed. But once in a while you may strike gold if you look at a player's full body of work to guess his potential. That's why you'd be foolish to draft the kid in the first round. But definitely not foolish to take a flyer in the third. As for diminutive DEs, I liked that the Bills took a flyer on a Corey Moore in round 3. You never know if he was going to turn into the next Bruschi (bow down). His body of work in college suggested a calculated risk in that round. Wilson's college resume screamed a high 3rd round pick, especially a team with very weak QB play.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

There are times when players who lack ideal speed or size succeed, but more often then not they fail. There have not been many great QBs who are Wilson's height, so I get why he lasted until the 3rd round. A 3rd pick in not much of a sacrafice. I think reason the Seahawks ended up with an elite QB is due to the amount of times they attempted to bring in a QB. Look at the guys the brought in. Whitehurst, Flynn, Jackson, and the Wilson. They kept at it unitl they ended up with a good QB on the roster.

 

Good post. People were critical of those moves, but there's something to be said about throwing a lot of darts.

 

You could argue that Losman was the last gamble the Bills took on a QB. Since then, nothing but guys whose ceiling is a mediocre starter.

[Kelly the Dog]

Arrgh. Stop dragging me into this thread.

 

You are right, you can't teach size & speed. But once in a while you may strike gold if you look at a player's full body of work to guess his potential. That's why you'd be foolish to draft the kid in the first round. But definitely not foolish to take a flyer in the third. As for diminutive DEs, I liked that the Bills took a flyer on a Corey Moore in round 3. You never know if he was going to turn into the next Bruschi (bow down). His body of work in college suggested a calculated risk in that round. Wilson's college resume screamed a high 3rd round pick, especially a team with very weak QB play.

Exactly. I LOVED Wilson as a prospect, and I thought we should take him in the third round. The third round is a flyer for a lot of picks. People are acting like Nix or anyone should have known and that is rubbish. What Nix should have done is take him in the third round.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

True, and the GM's of those teams (Jacksonville & KC) have since been fired. As inexcusable as Buddy's passing on Wilson was, Jacksonville selected a PUNTER with the pick just before Seattle took Wilson.

 

Ok, that one takes the cake.

[GG]

Exactly. I LOVED Wilson as a prospect, and I thought we should take him in the third round. The third round is a flyer for a lot of picks. People are acting like Nix or anyone should have known and that is rubbish. What Nix should have done is take him in the third round.

 

Isn't that what this argument is about?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fCVHpnixj88

[Kelly the Dog]

No. People are arguing in this and other threads that he should have known. That it was obvious how good Russell Wilson was and Nix should have seen that he had all this talent and recognized it from the start. And that, to me, is nonsense. Nix was just like all of the other GMs in the league, including John Schneider, who along with Pete Carroll, didn't at all know that height was not going to affect Wilson. If Schneider and Carroll knew, they wouldn't have signed Flynn, and they would have drafted Russell Wilson in the first round where virtually no one had him ranked. Nix screwed up because he didn't take a flyer on the guy, and instead took a flyer on a smallish WR instead, not because he should have known.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I notice that you didn't mention any 5'11" or smaller players that deserved a shot but never got one.

 

No I didn't.

 

But I addressed that point twice in each of my posts.

 

1) Players with the stature of Russell Wilson are usually diverted away from quarterback before they get to the pros.

 

2) There is a difference between being given a legit chance and simply being a camp body or a roster filler.

 

There's a difference between a quarterback who is the starter by default and one who has the true backing of his organization (like Fitz has enjoyed the last two seasons). Take a guy like Kellen Moore. I know nothing about the guy except that he was a great college quarterback and he's on the short side. Do we know that he's ever been given a fair chance to compete for a starting role in the NFL? All we know is that Detroit likes him running their scout team. It's immaterial that he's on a roster if he's not been given a legitimate chance to compete for a starting job.

 

Doug Flutie spent 5 seasons in the NFL before going to Canada and arguably becoming the greatest player in CFL history. In those 5 seasons at the start of his career, he started 15 games and went 10-5 in those games. And yet he was never given the real opportunity to be the unquestioned starter, as Fitz was.

 

Why wasn't Flutie given a true untainted opportunity despite being 10-5 as an NFL starter?

 

I think we all know the reason.