mannc Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 You're right, and I stand corrected on that portion of my post. But, taking a WR at #3 when you have no offensive or defensive line and a mediocre QB is still not the wa to build a team, IMO. Well, we we drafted Dareus and we still have no defensive line, a worse than mediocre QB, and sub-par WRs. If we had drafted Green and Dalton, two of those problems would have been solved and the franchise would have a foundation for future success. Instead, we now we have the foundation for future chaos. And spare me the "hindsight is a wonderful thing" talk. This front office has been wrong almost every single time. When you get shown up by the Bengals' front office you know you have hit the bottom of the barrel.
JohnC Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Well, we we drafted Dareus and we still have no defensive line, a worse than mediocre QB, and sub-par WRs. If we had drafted Green and Dalton, two of those problems would have been solved and the franchise would have a foundation for future success. Instead, we now we have the foundation for future chaos. And spare me the "hindsight is a wonderful thing" talk. This front office has been wrong almost every single time. When you get shown up by the Bengals' front office you know you have hit the bottom of the barrel. I can't argue with the drafting of Dareus. He was a good pick. Not drafting Dalton in the second round was a glaring mistake. Does anyone believe that selecting Aaron Williams, a CB, over Dalton, a qb, advanced this franchise? Buddy Nix and his braintrust believed that Fitz was a legitimate franchise qb who at the minimum would buy time for upgrading the team before pursuing a more talented qb in the draft. It was a major miscalculation. Apparently, Buddy's reasoning is that Aaron Williams was a higher rated player on his draft board. Instead of drafting a smart, accurate, high character qb with a good arm who is doing well with the Bengals he took a CB who is currently struggling on the field. Without a doubt the Bills have a lot of issues. The main one is the qb position, the most important position on the roster. Nix missed an opportunity that was there for the taking. He dropped the ball.
Coach Tuesday Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I can't argue with the drafting of Dareus. He was a good pick. Not drafting Dalton in the second round was a glaring mistake. Does anyone believe that selecting Aaron Williams, a CB, over Dalton, a qb, advanced this franchise? Buddy Nix and his braintrust believed that Fitz was a legitimate franchise qb who at the minimum would buy time for upgrading the team before pursuing a more talented qb in the draft. It was a major miscalculation. Apparently, Buddy's reasoning is that Aaron Williams was a higher rated player on his draft board. Instead of drafting a smart, accurate, high character qb with a good arm who is doing well with the Bengals he took a CB who is currently struggling on the field. Without a doubt the Bills have a lot of issues. The main one is the qb position, the most important position on the roster. Nix missed an opportunity that was there for the taking. He dropped the ball. This is because Nix is a professional scout, not a professional team builder. He has ZERO experience constructing a roster - he is learning on the job, in his sixties. A scout reverts to his "draft board." A GM focuses on his priorities board. On the priorities board, a potential franchise QB is higher on the list than a second cornerback...
JohnC Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 This is because Nix is a professional scout, not a professional team builder. He has ZERO experience constructing a roster - he is learning on the job, in his sixties. A scout reverts to his "draft board." A GM focuses on his priorities board. On the priorities board, a potential franchise QB is higher on the list than a second cornerback... I want to be fair to Buddy. I understand his reasoning. He felt that Fitz was an adequate bridge qb that would allow him to buy time to bolster the roster in general and then go after a more talented prospect. It obviously different work out the way he expected it to. The shame of the situation is that even if he is in position to draft a highly rated qb in the next draft it is going to take a couple or few years of development to get consistent production from the prospect. Nix made a major blunder that set this franchise back.
Coach Tuesday Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I want to be fair to Buddy. I understand his reasoning. He felt that Fitz was an adequate bridge qb that would allow him to buy time to bolster the roster in general and then go after a more talented prospect. It obviously different work out the way he expected it to. The shame of the situation is that even if he is in position to draft a highly rated qb in the next draft it is going to take a couple or few years of development to get consistent production from the prospect. Nix made a major blunder that set this franchise back. He should've at least hedged is bet by drafting or signing SOMEONE to develop, in case Fitz didn't pan out. Gotta give the Seahawks credit - when Carroll came in, they had no QB on the roster, and they proceeded to add Whitehurst, Wilson, Jackson and Flynn. Spread out your bets and one is bound to hit. Edited October 9, 2012 by Coach Tuesday
Best Player Available Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I can't argue with the drafting of Dareus. He was a good pick. Not drafting Dalton in the second round was a glaring mistake. Does anyone believe that selecting Aaron Williams, a CB, over Dalton, a qb, advanced this franchise? Buddy Nix and his braintrust believed that Fitz was a legitimate franchise qb who at the minimum would buy time for upgrading the team before pursuing a more talented qb in the draft. It was a major miscalculation. Apparently, Buddy's reasoning is that Aaron Williams was a higher rated player on his draft board. Instead of drafting a smart, accurate, high character qb with a good arm who is doing well with the Bengals he took a CB who is currently struggling on the field. Without a doubt the Bills have a lot of issues. The main one is the qb position, the most important position on the roster. Nix missed an opportunity that was there for the taking. He dropped the ball. In regards to Dalton. In the end does it really matter? Andrew Luck/RG3 would suck on this team. Who on this coaching staff could coach the kid up? Gailey? No friggin way. David Lee? Well he has done wonders with Fitzgibbons! We need a young coach that understands today's NFL not B list old farts. Until then the team is treading water and losing the battle.
Bill from NYC Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I want to be fair to Buddy. I understand his reasoning. He felt that Fitz was an adequate bridge qb that would allow him to buy time to bolster the roster in general and then go after a more talented prospect. It obviously different work out the way he expected it to. The shame of the situation is that even if he is in position to draft a highly rated qb in the next draft it is going to take a couple or few years of development to get consistent production from the prospect. Nix made a major blunder that set this franchise back. He drafted A. Williams and Sheppard when he could have selected Mallett. This was stupid. I said it then and repeat it now. Both of those players will likely be busts. Mallett might be one as well. Or, he could develop into a top notch qb. Mallett was worth the risk. I don't see any doubt. And, Nix said that he had offers to trade down. Sorry, my friend. This was inexcusabley stupidity. Edited October 9, 2012 by Bill from NYC
mannc Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I can't argue with the drafting of Dareus. He was a good pick. Not drafting Dalton in the second round was a glaring mistake. Does anyone believe that selecting Aaron Williams, a CB, over Dalton, a qb, advanced this franchise? Buddy Nix and his braintrust believed that Fitz was a legitimate franchise qb who at the minimum would buy time for upgrading the team before pursuing a more talented qb in the draft. It was a major miscalculation. Apparently, Buddy's reasoning is that Aaron Williams was a higher rated player on his draft board. Instead of drafting a smart, accurate, high character qb with a good arm who is doing well with the Bengals he took a CB who is currently struggling on the field. Without a doubt the Bills have a lot of issues. The main one is the qb position, the most important position on the roster. Nix missed an opportunity that was there for the taking. He dropped the ball. I don't think Nix should be let off the hook for drafting Dareus, even if he turns out to be a very good player (not much evidence of it yet). In today's NFL, having a stud WR is almost as important as having a franchise QB, and prospects like AJ Green don't come around that often and can usually only be had with premium picks. Atlanta understood this and paid a king's ransom to Cleveland for the right to draft Julio Jones; now it's paying off for them. Look at what having Calvin Johnson did for Detroit and the development of Stafford. Green has had a similar effect on Dalton and both could have been Bills if we had a GM with some vision. Green alongside Stevie would be a major matchup problem for a lot of teams for years to come, especially with a competent QB throwing the ball to them. Instead, we have a pretty good d-lineman and a useless DB. But in Nix we trust! Edited October 10, 2012 by mannc
JohnC Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) He drafted A. Williams and Sheppard when he could have selected Mallett. This was stupid. I said it then and repeat it now. Both of those players will likely be busts. Mallett might be one as well. Or, he could develop into a top notch qb. Mallett was worth the risk. I don't see any doubt. And, Nix said that he had offers to trade down. Sorry, my friend. This was inexcusabley stupidity. The glaring mistake had little to do with not taking Mallett. The bonehead decision was in not taking Dalton in the second round. Dalton was the safer pick compared to Mallett, at least in my estimation. He was more mature, mobile and accurate. There is no doubt that Mallett had the better arm. I'm not suggesting that Mallett isn't going to be a good qb. He may be. But as Dalton has already demonstrated with the Bengals he was ready to play in his rookie year. The bottom line is that the Bills are a failed organization not because of any bad karma working against the franchise. It is simply due to bad decisions that are repeatedly made that set the franchise back. It is very frustrating. The Ralph Wilson legacy of staffing. In regards to Dalton. In the end does it really matter? Andrew Luck/RG3 would suck on this team. Who on this coaching staff could coach the kid up? Gailey? No friggin way. David Lee? Well he has done wonders with Fitzgibbons! We need a young coach that understands today's NFL not B list old farts. Until then the team is treading water and losing the battle. The problem with Fitz has little to do with the coaching he is receiving. His core problem stem directly from him limitations as a passer. He has below average arm strength and his accuracy is erratic. No coach would be able to compensate for those inadaquacies. Anyone who watches NFL games realizes that he simply isn't a legitimate starter in this league. At best he is a capable backup. I don't think Nix should be let off the hook for drafting Dareus, even if he turns out to be a very good player (not much evidence of it yet). In today's NFL, having a stud WR is almost as important as having a franchise QB, and prospects like AJ Green don't come around that often and can usually only be had with premium picks. Atlanta understood this and paid a king's ransom to Cleveland for the right to draft Julio Jones; now it's paying off for them. Look at what having Calvin Johnson did for Detroit and the development of Stafford. Green has had a similar effect on Dalton and both could have been Bills if we had a GM with some vision. Green alongside Stevie would be a major matchup problem for a lot of teams for years to come, especially with a competent QB throwing the ball to them. Instead, we have a pretty good d-lineman and a useless DB. But in Nix we trust! I maintain my position that Dareus was a good pick. With respect to AJ Green, Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones their talents would be squandered with a qb such as Fitz throwing to them. There should be no surprise that the three gifted and productive receivers you mentioned have good qbs throwing to them. Dalton, Stafford and Ryan dominate Fitz in ability. Edited October 10, 2012 by JohnC
mannc Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I maintain my position that Dareus was a good pick. With respect to AJ Green, Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones their talents would be squandered with a qb such as Fitz throwing to them. There should be no surprise that the three gifted and productive receivers you mentioned have good qbs throwing to them. Dalton, Stafford and Ryan dominate Fitz in ability. I agree re the QBs. That's why the Bills should have drafted Dalton in round 2. But unlike the Bengals, they had no plan whatsoever, and no vision.
K-9 Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I agree re the QBs. That's why the Bills should have drafted Dalton in round 2. But unlike the Bengals, they had no plan whatsoever, and no vision. Ah yes. The vaunted "Bengal Vision." They don't draft Dalton if Carson Palmer doesn't declare his days in Cincy are over. Dalton went into the perfect situation for himself, a team with NO starting QB. Taking nothing away from his impressive accomplishments and the 20/20 hindsight they bring, Dalton would have been a backup most anywhere else, including the Bills. GO BILLS!!!
Fan in Chicago Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I want to be fair to Buddy. I understand his reasoning. He felt that Fitz was an adequate bridge qb that would allow him to buy time to bolster the roster in general and then go after a more talented prospect. It obviously different work out the way he expected it to. The shame of the situation is that even if he is in position to draft a highly rated qb in the next draft it is going to take a couple or few years of development to get consistent production from the prospect. Nix made a major blunder that set this franchise back. I disagree that Nix can be absolved of blame. He is the GM, he has scouts working for him and is supposed to be a football guy. It is is his job to judge talent and do whats best for the team in the long run. He failed on all accounts by not upgrading the QB position and believing Fitz is an adequate stop gap. I made your latter point (2011 draft was the PERFECT one to get a QB) before and after last year's draft for the reasons you stated. Team building has to be put in perspective of the long run - not necessarily just your current needs. Drafting one in 2011 would have been the right decision no matter how Fitz developed. The glaring mistake had little to do with not taking Mallett. The bonehead decision was in not taking Dalton in the second round. The problem with Fitz has little to do with the coaching he is receiving. His core problem stem directly from him limitations as a passer. He has below average arm strength and his accuracy is erratic. I maintain my position that Dareus was a good pick. I agree entirely with all your above points.
CodeMonkey Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) In regards to Dalton. In the end does it really matter? Andrew Luck/RG3 would suck on this team. Who on this coaching staff could coach the kid up? Gailey? No friggin way. David Lee? Well he has done wonders with Fitzgibbons! We need a young coach that understands today's NFL not B list old farts. Until then the team is treading water and losing the battle. At least with a RG3 or Luck on the team you might attract a decent OC and HC. Right now the Bills GM has anointed a career backup as the starting QB. And what's worse, with all the good QBs in recent drafts, the Bills did not see fit to get one to groom, much less start. Who do you get for HC/OC without a viable QB? Answer is Chan Gailey. Edited October 10, 2012 by CodeMonkey
Rico Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 He drafted A. Williams and Sheppard when he could have selected Mallett. This was stupid. I said it then and repeat it now. Both of those players will likely be busts. Mallett might be one as well. Or, he could develop into a top notch qb. Mallett was worth the risk. I don't see any doubt. And, Nix said that he had offers to trade down. Sorry, my friend. This was inexcusabley stupidity. No one wanted Mallett til the 3rd round, when BB drafted him.. hoping to find another chump team a couple years down the road that will trade a high pick for a brain-dead statue with a big arm. It's been 10 years now since TD's enormous blunder, let us only hope that history does NOT repeat itself here.
JohnC Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Ah yes. The vaunted "Bengal Vision." They don't draft Dalton if Carson Palmer doesn't declare his days in Cincy are over. Dalton went into the perfect situation for himself, a team with NO starting QB. Taking nothing away from his impressive accomplishments and the 20/20 hindsight they bring, Dalton would have been a backup most anywhere else, including the Bills. GO BILLS!!! If the Bills would have drafted Dalton in 2011 he would currently be our starting qb. When Palmer left the Bengals smartly drafted the TCU qb to replace the disgruntled player. Dalton is simply a better qb in most aspects of the game with the exception of experience. Whether Fitz was on the roster or not Nix needed to get a legitimate prospect on the roster. Nix and the braintrust felt that for the time being Fitz was adequate. It was a gross miscalculation that has set this franchise back, yet again. If you watch the games you will see that Fitz is what he is i.e. mediocre. If you watch the Bengals you will see a young franchise qb who is good and getting better. This is another missed opportunity in a string of missed opportunities. He was there for the taking. Instead Nix took a CB, Aaron Williams, who is struggling on the field. The long term losing record of the franchise is a reflection of its systemic organizational ineptitude. It never seems to end. Edited October 10, 2012 by JohnC
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 The problem with Fitz has little to do with the coaching he is receiving. His core problem stem directly from him limitations as a passer. He has below average arm strength and his accuracy is erratic. No coach would be able to compensate for those inadaquacies. Anyone who watches NFL games realizes that he simply isn't a legitimate starter in this league. At best he is a capable backup. This wouldn't be the first time Chan has stuck with an obviously subpar QB.
BillsVet Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I maintain my position that Dareus was a good pick. With respect to AJ Green, Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones their talents would be squandered with a qb such as Fitz throwing to them. There should be no surprise that the three gifted and productive receivers you mentioned have good qbs throwing to them. Dalton, Stafford and Ryan dominate Fitz in ability. Teams aren't winning with defense like they used to. The game is being won obviously with a top QB combined with outstanding receivers. New England, New York Giants, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, New Orleans, etc. As much as I like Dareus, a good DT isn't worth more on the modern football field than a good WR. And without a doubt AJ Green is that type of threat that makes life easier for that QB. But in Buffalo, Nix has exactly 1 pick in the top 3 rounds at TE or WR, never took a QB, and the time will come when it's proven his old-school mindset didn't fit with the modern game. And this is coming from a guy who liked the Dareus pick, like so many fans did at the time. Problem is, Nix is getting paid to be no less than at or perhaps ahead of the curve. Instead, he remains behind the times and spent a lot of resources building a (flawed) defense while neglecting the offensive skill positions.
Ball'n Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 A little off topic but does anyone think Dalton won't turn out that well? He's made plays but he's also been bailed out a bunch by Green last season, including multiple throws that would easily be interceptions if thrown to any of our WR's. The bengals D was also playing very well last season which was the true reason for their success in my opinion. He has looked promising this season but they've also had a very easy schedule so far and I believe most quarterbacks, even Fitz, would succeed against the Browns, Redskins, Jags. I'm not saying Dalton won't turn out to be good or better than Fitz but I don't believe he will turn out be a top 10 quarterback and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up having a "disappointing" career.
JohnC Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Jags. I'm not saying Dalton won't turn out to be good or better than Fitz but I don't believe he will turn out be a top 10 quarterback and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up having a "disappointing" career. I am confidently saying that Dalton is going to be and is now a better qb than Fitz simply because he is more accurate and has a better arm. Whether Dalton is going to be a top ten qb is very debateable. But I will certainly take a top half ranked qb over a qb that is rated in the bottom 2-4. In my opinion Dalton is going to get better as he gains experience. Fitz is not going to develop beyond what he is now because he is not going to lose his limitations.
JohnC Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 This wouldn't be the first time Chan has stuck with an obviously subpar QB. Chan has stuck with subpar qbs because that is all he has to work with. The GM's job is to acquire players and the coach then works with those players. It the talent base is dismal then that is the major problem, not the coaching. Even a genius head coach is not going to make qbs such as Fitz, Thigpen, Taveris, Edwards, Holcum (sic), Levi Brown etc into quality starters. As it stands the Bills don't even have an adequate prospect on the roster to develop. That is a lapse in foresight and judgment. Although the Broncos acquired Peyton Manning they still drafted a qb in the second round. The Eagles have a history of drafting a number of qbs to develop. With respect to the qb position Buddy is behind the curve. Odds are that he will draft a qb at a high position in the next draft. It will then take at least two to three years in development to get a good return on the investment. Foolishness---the same old foolishness!
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