The difference between Jim Harbaugh and Chan Gailey

[CardinalScotts]

Why did Harbaugh say no to the Bills? Was it lack of power? didnt like the owner or maybe the GM? or was it something else?

THE PATRIOTS ARE IN THAT DIVISION !!! who's over there? Seattle? , Arizona ? umm yaaa I'll go with the niners opportunity

[thewildrabbit]

We shoulda spent 100 million on Jim Harbaugh....not on the grossly overrated Mario.

This is a great and very valid point.

 

The Bills have never paid big money to a head coach. The one time they came close was with Chuck Knox they got a winner

[HOUSE]

We shoulda spent 100 million on Jim Harbaugh....not on the grossly overrated Mario.

 

[Best Player Available]

When Ralph trumped Wade and insisted on Johnson over Flutie, it sent quite a shockwave that still can be registered by A-list coaches and candidates.

 

I think it's a bit more complicated than the flutie/johnson thing. In fact lately when they mention meddling owners, Ralph's name never comes up. Unlike the Snyder, Jones. If you look at the owner of the Bills 52+ year history. Winning never seemed to be the one and most important thing. Unlike say the Rooney families team. I think the whole Bills historical performance rate is something that holds more weight for A list candidates. Coming to the Bills without control for a guy coming out of the college ranks could ruin their one big shot.

 

That said, Ralph please..... offer Chip Kelly 20 million a year for 5 years. (that might get him here) Then, us fans will be hoisting our first Lombardi by year 3.

Heck, I'd even settle for Mike leach. C. Kelly's current biotch.

Unlike a lot of posters here, making the playoffs does nothing for me. Unless we can go deep. We would get out butts wiped in any wild card game opponent with this years team, as it is playing now. But more importantly the piss poor coaching is keeping this team in limbo. Were 2 years away from the bumbling Bills, then 2 more away from the bickering Bills at the rate this team is improving. Farting around with quarterbacks that less face it might be unemployed if not for the Bills is getting us nowhere.

 

We got a nucleus now, a hot younger coach from the college ranks could turn this around quickly.

[prissythecat]

Good lord I read this all the time, like the Bills had no talent anywhere on their roster when Gailey got here.

 

The Bills had Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson. Lynch motivated in Seattle is a 1200+ yard a year rusher along with 12 TD's and he runs like a Mack truck. Fred Jackson is like a Jaguar who is so elusive he makes the first tackler miss and breaks the second, and could easily equal what Lynch has done if he had stayed healthy. The Bills had a better running game then the 49ers.This regime decided to draft another RB (Spiller) "waterbug" in 2010 with that #1 pick, a guy who sat on the bench for most of his first 2 years, and still isn't the starter.

 

The biggest problem the Bills offense was they needed a LT to replace JP who they traded away. they finally drafted his replacement in 2012 in Cordy Glenn. Why it took them 3 years, i don't know! They also needed a RT in 2010 and still don't have a top RT or RG.

 

 

For the defense the Bills have needed a top pass rusher since Aaron Schobel retired in 09. They were the #19 defense, and San Fran was the #15 defense in 2009. Jauron swung and missed with Aaron Maybin and yet the Redskins picked right after the Bills and hit a home run with Brian Arakpo. Anyway, Nix finally addressed the pass rush by adding super Mario and Mark Anderson in 2012, why it took 3 years, again I don't know

 

 

Gailey /. Nix have made a multitude of boneheaded personnel / scheme / assistant errors along their 12-24 run so far in Buffalo.

 

 

The 49ers have a great coaching staff, while the Bills have a mediocre to bad coaching staff. However, Lets not forget what Nix had to go thru just to get Chan Gailey to come to Buffalo

 

You really miss the point of my post. I never said anything about the Bills having a better coach or management. I just said that comparing Win vs Loss like the article that the OP references is very misleading because the Niners already had a solid team there. The Bills did not have a solid team when Nix/ Gailey took over. They still aren't right now.

 

Now for some of your arguments...

 

In 2009 for the Bills , Lynch averaged 3.8 ypc over 13 games. In 2010 for the Seahawks, Lynch averaged 3.5 ypc over 12 games. Frank Gore averaged 4.9 ypc in 2009 and 4.2 ypc in 2010 for the Niners. Marshawn was our featured back till he was traded in 2010. Do you still want to say that Marshawn constituted a good running game? No one is afraid of a running back who requires a million carries to get to 1000 yards. And that is why Marshawn was trade bait (his off the field problems also

didnt help of course)

 

On defense, according to nfl.com , the Niners were 13th in overall defense for 2010 (the year before Harbaugh took over) . In 2009 (the year before Gailey took over), the Bills were 19th in overall defense. 13th is decent. 19th is not.

[CardinalScotts]

the big difference is if your Harbaugh I dont have to worry about any team in my division anything over 8 wins and they will take the division crown. The Patriots and then Jets obstacle does not exist

[K-9]

This is a great and very valid point.

 

The Bills have never paid big money to a head coach. The one time they came close was with Chuck Knox they got a winner

 

John Rauch, Saban II, and Marv Levy, as well as Knox were all paid near the top of the scale. RW has always paid for proven talent. Not so much until it was proven.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

You really miss the point of my post. I never said anything about the Bills having a better coach or management. I just said that comparing Win vs Loss like the article that the OP references is very misleading because the Niners already had a solid team there. The Bills did not have a solid team when Nix/ Gailey took over. They still aren't right now.

 

Now for some of your arguments...

 

In 2009 for the Bills , Lynch averaged 3.8 ypc over 13 games. In 2010 for the Seahawks, Lynch averaged 3.5 ypc over 12 games. Frank Gore averaged 4.9 ypc in 2009 and 4.2 ypc in 2010 for the Niners. Marshawn was our featured back till he was traded in 2010. Do you still want to say that Marshawn constituted a good running game? No one is afraid of a running back who requires a million carries to get to 1000 yards. And that is why Marshawn was trade bait (his off the field problems also

didnt help of course)

 

On defense, according to nfl.com , the Niners were 13th in overall defense for 2010 (the year before Harbaugh took over) . In 2009 (the year before Gailey took over), the Bills were 19th in overall defense. 13th is decent. 19th is not.

I didn't miss any point. What I'm saying it is an apples to apples argument! The team Gailey inherited had some good talent on it. In fact Buddy Nix thought so also when he stated "you're going to think i'm crazy, but we are not that far away"

 

Nix was correct in his assessment of the Bills prospects for 2010, the Bills were just hindered by being forced to hire a guy as HC that had been fired as OC of the Chiefs two weeks before the season started in 09, Just like the way Jauron fired Turk Schonert.The bigger problem was not only being limited to hiring like the 15th head coach on the list of desired hirings. It was the assistants that Chan Gailey chose to hire after he was hired. Instead of hiring experienced NFL coaches he chose to hire a bunch of his assistant coaches from his day as HC of Georgia Tech. So the Bills hired a bunch of assistants that needed to be trained on how the NFL works.

 

The difference in 09 between the defenses was the Bills @ 19th, the 49ers at 15th. not that big a difference.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2009&seasonType=REG

 

What did i say? A "motivated" Marshawn Lynch in Seattle put up some really good numbers, and along with Fred Jackson are a much better tandem then just Frank Gore. In my view Jackson alone is very equal to Gore. Anyway, who is to say that if Harbough or another top HC had come to Buffalo they couldn't have properly motivated Lynch like Seattle did?

 

 

The Bills changed like 8 players from the roster between 2009 -2010. When they desperately needed a LT, a RT, a pass rusher and a franchise QB. The Bills finally addressed LT and pass rusher this year

[thewildrabbit]

John Rauch, Saban II, and Marv Levy, as well as Knox were all paid near the top of the scale. RW has always paid for proven talent. Not so much until it was proven.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Yea well, got a link to how each of those coaches were paid compared to their peers?

 

I know Knox was well paid because Wilson had to pay him to bring him into Buffalo after winning 5 straight divisional championships with the Rams, 1.2 million over 6 years.

 

When it came to getting a raise for Knox, Wilson declined so Knox went to Seattle

[K-9]

Yea well, got a link to how each of those coaches were paid compared to their peers?

 

I know Knox was well paid because Wilson had to pay him to bring him into Buffalo after winning 5 straight divisional championships with the Rams, 1.2 million over 6 years.

 

When it came to getting a raise for Knox, Wilson declined so Knox went to Seattle

 

Sorry, no link. Take it for what its worth. Which probably isn't much since it doesn't support your tired "Ralph is cheap" mantra. But I know better so I'm secure in that knowledge.

 

And Knox left for several reasons. That strike year ripped that team apart. Cribbs and Butler held out, rumors that Knox was gonna take a HC job with new USFL franchise in Arizona, Knox being pissed about the trade of Cousineau, the list goes on. Mr. Wilson wanted to re-sign Knox earlier but, like Butler years later, Knox waited and the protracted contract argument was icing on the cake. He didn't want to stay in Buffalo anyway. And no, I don't have a link for that either. Ask around if you don't want to take my word for it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited October 5, 2012 by K-9

[Jim in Anchorage]

Excellent point. Believe it or not, I was able to spend 30 minutes with Joe Theisman one-on-one two weeks ago and he said the Bills were the worst franchise in the league, hands down. He says there is no leadership from the two most important positions - QB and Head coach. He said until something changes there, the team will be terrible.

 

Your point on confidence/cockiness is crutial. These positions need to be leaders.

I heard a good line on Theisman years ago. "If you're trying to pick a football game,best bet is to flip a coin. Odds are good the coin has never heard a word Joe Theisman said."

[PromoTheRobot]

I have heard so many excuses from so many coaches I forget who said what?

He said "Buffalo is where careers go to die."

 

PTR

[thewildrabbit]

Sorry, no link. Take it for what its worth. Which probably isn't much since it doesn't support your tired "Ralph is cheap" mantra. But I know better so I'm secure in that knowledge.

 

And Knox left for several reasons. That strike year ripped that team apart. Cribbs and Butler held out, rumors that Knox was gonna take a HC job with new USFL franchise in Arizona, Knox being pissed about the trade of Cousineau, the list goes on. Mr. Wilson wanted to re-sign Knox earlier but, like Butler years later, Knox waited and the protracted contract argument was icing on the cake. He didn't want to stay in Buffalo anyway. And no, I don't have a link for that either. Ask around if you don't want to take my word for it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I don't have a Ralph is cheap mantra! However I do have a Ralph is not always smart with his money mantra!

 

I know why Knox left, more money would have kept him in Buffalo! You do realize how much Knox transformed the Buffalo Bills. The Bills had a moron for a GM in Stew Barber, and Knox built a winner in Buffalo despite Barber. Barber was the reason the Bills couldn't get a deal done with Tom Cousineau. The Bills were only 10k apart, and let him walk

 

It was Knox who made the deal to trade away OJ. It was Knox who was the shrewd talent evaluator. Knox also completely redid the scouting dept by hiring some new scouts and brought in Norm Pollom from the Rams. Knox wasn't only the head coach, he was also director of Football operations for the Bills. Not only did he coach but was also involved in filling the stadium with fans. The average attendance before Knox was 44k, 1/2 the stadium filled each game. The Bills couldn't play a pre season game at home because no other team would come in because basically no Bills fans would buy pre season tickets. Chuck Knox completely turned around things around with the 1980 "talking Proud campaign"

 

After the 82 season Ralph Wilson had his fans back, his stadium was filled again, so he let one of the best coaches he ever hired leave.

 

 

 

P.S.You can think whatever you like, I never read anywhere that Rauch, Saben or Levy were paid near the top of any scale. What I do know is that Marv Levy always kept his salary secret, not sure why. I also know that John Butler was fired by Wilson because he refused to sign a new contract before the season ended. Another top person in their field leaving for more money.

 

He said "Buffalo is where careers go to die."

 

PTR

 

I believe Chuck Knox called Buffalo "a coaches graveyard"

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

To be fair to Gailey, this is not quite an apples to apples comparison. Harbaugh inherited a very good team in terms of talent. San Fran already had a good defense and a solid running game. When Gailey came on board, what did we have?

 

im sorry, but that is just bs.... the teams are not far apart in talent... theyre simply not... ( it is an attitude.) i think it starts with the front office and coach. jmo

[K-9]

I don't have a Ralph is cheap mantra! However I do have a Ralph is not always smart with his money mantra!

 

I know why Knox left, more money would have kept him in Buffalo! You do realize how much Knox transformed the Buffalo Bills. The Bills had a moron for a GM in Stew Barber, and Knox built a winner in Buffalo despite Barber. Barber was the reason the Bills couldn't get a deal done with Tom Cousineau. The Bills were only 10k apart, and let him walk

 

It was Knox who made the deal to trade away OJ. It was Knox who was the shrewd talent evaluator. Knox also completely redid the scouting dept by hiring some new scouts and brought in Norm Pollom from the Rams. Knox wasn't only the head coach, he was also director of Football operations for the Bills. Not only did he coach but was also involved in filling the stadium with fans. The average attendance before Knox was 44k, 1/2 the stadium filled each game. The Bills couldn't play a pre season game at home because no other team would come in because basically no Bills fans would buy pre season tickets. Chuck Knox completely turned around things around with the 1980 "talking Proud campaign"

 

After the 82 season Ralph Wilson had his fans back, his stadium was filled again, so he let one of the best coaches he ever hired leave.

 

 

 

P.S.You can think whatever you like, I never read anywhere that Rauch, Saben or Levy were paid near the top of any scale. What I do know is that Marv Levy always kept his salary secret, not sure why. I also know that John Butler was fired by Wilson because he refused to sign a new contract before the season ended. Another top person in their field leaving for more money.

 

To the bolded, we are in total agreement. Same with Barber. He was not qualified and treated people like an ass.

 

As to the rest, I was there as well. Often close to certain situations. $1.2m over six years was upper tier coaches money at that time and that's what Knox got paid. And he was worth it for all the reasons you mention and then some. Knox really created the buzz again.

 

There was a LOT more to it than the money issue with Knox. Mr. Wilson was VERY concerned by the rumors Knox was gonna go to the USFL and it pissed him off. RW tolerates many things, but disloyalty is not among them. In addition, both Cribbs and Butler held out and, thanks to Barber it became FAR messier than it ever had to be. Knox knew it was Cribbs' last season in Buffalo as well. And then the strike. Any rift between the players and management, and there were many money-related issues, grew into a chasm. And Knox rebuffed RW's contract offers on more than two occasions and RW didn't like it. He thought Knox just strung him along and actually had already made up his mind about Seattle even while STILL under contract. The similarities to the Butler situation in that regard are striking.

 

Anyway, those days are long gone and I have no desire to convince anyone of anything about them. Believe what you will, it won't change a thing.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited October 5, 2012 by K-9

[Dragonborn10]

Before they hired Chan Gailey in 2010, the Buffalo Bills reportedly offered their head coaching job to Jim Harbaugh. Gailey is 12-24 in two-plus seasons with Buffalo. Harbaugh is 16-4 with San Francisco.

 

That's the difference between these two coaches: one is a good coach; the other has been a great head coach. Where Harbaugh's team plays like it's hell-bent on being the most dominant group in the game, Gailey's projects the image of a team taking its time and picking its spots in trying to get where it wants to be. Where Gailey apparently has to instill mental toughness in his players, Harbaugh's get theirs seemingly by osmosis. Harbaugh coaches with confidence and attitude; Gailey's style in Buffalo has been more along the lines of constantly having a trick up his sleeve. Gailey's team can exploit a weakness; Harbaugh's can dominate a strength. Snip>

 

http://www.buffaloru...augh-comparison

OMG you can't be serious??? Harabugh plays six games against the likes of Arizona, Seattle and St. Louis. He inherited a top 5 defense. Chan has had to turn over a significant chunk of a roster put together by Marv Levy.

 

And maybe just maybe he and his wife would rather live in Northern California and not Western NY.

 

I will say that Chan deserves all the criticism in the world for switching ot a 3-4 when we didn't have the personnel to play it and for not picking a competent DC.

[ganesh]

Why did Harbaugh say no to the Bills? Was it lack of power? didnt like the owner or maybe the GM? or was it something else?

I think there are many...

 

Harbaugh was coaching Stanford, in the Bay area....where the 49ers call it home....

It is 70 degree weather in SF through the year....6 months of winter in Buffalo

The 49ers were a slightly better team than the Bills in terms of talent (Not much difference though)

Uncertainty with the Bills ownership....Say whatever you want....Coaches never feel comfortable, if there is going to be a change of guard in ownership in the middle of their coaching term.

The 49ers probably also offered him more money and control than the Bills.

 

im sorry, but that is just bs.... the teams are not far apart in talent... theyre simply not... ( it is an attitude.) i think it starts with the front office and coach. jmo

 

Agree...In all those years before the arrival of Harbaugh, the 49ers and Bills were picking almost at the same spots in the draft and had similar records...

 

After Harbaugh's arrival, they are winning with great defense and good special teams...Their offense just gets by. The closest we got to a similar coach was when we had Mike Mularkey and that was the only time we had a winning record (9-7).

Edited October 5, 2012 by ganesh

[BillsVet]

To be fair to Gailey, this is not quite an apples to apples comparison. Harbaugh inherited a very good team in terms of talent. San Fran already had a good defense and a solid running game. When Gailey came on board, what did we have?

How did SF go 6-10 in that weak division in 2010 if they had all this talent?

 

Why did Harbaugh say no to the Bills? Was it lack of power? didnt like the owner or maybe the GM? or was it something else?

Why did 4 other HC candidates turn down Buffalo's HC job? Leslie Frazier interviewed and later withdrew his candidacy. Ron Rivera, Jim Harbaugh, Brian Schottenheimer and Russ Grimm all declined to even interview. Teams simply do not get turned down for interviews, nor do their HC's resign like Mike Mularkey did in early 2006. There is something poison about working in Buffalo as evidenced by the above names refusing to even talk about the job. Taking a HC job is a huge career decision, and one where the individual needs to know they'll work in an environment with a reasonable chance of success. No less than five men decided Buffalo is not a healthy atmosphere built to succeed.

 

Yeah, he turned down the Fins' job as well. IMO, he is the best coach in football for being able to win with Alex Smith. That said, I have a hard time believing they are a championship team with Smith leading them. It's pretty much my only hope for Sunday.

The Dolphins are a dumpster fire. Stephen Ross may be a billionaire, but he's got to be one of the worst owners in the NFL. That said CB97, you need to be more optimistic.

Edited October 5, 2012 by BillsVet

[Buffalos#1Fan]

What's the difference between a Buffalo Bill and a dollar bill?

 

You get 4 quarters out of a dollar bill

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Chan expects to win and is disappointed with losing..... Harbaugh hates losing and has a burning passion to win.

 

These are the respective the personalities I see the team take on too...

Edited October 5, 2012 by over 20 years of fanhood