San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Thanks EA. I'll stand by my belief though, that all things being equal, success and failure has the most to do with the competency of managers. A good manager almost always succeeds while we've seen MANY talented teams in our lifetime underachieve due to bad management (whether it be weak leadership, poor strategy, bad motivation, or any of the other millions of factors which managers can control). I look at the debacle yesterday very simply: Your team is getting the shyt kicked out of it physically. The other team if bending you over and giving it to you. They are having their way. You have all these big, strong, young, well-rested guys standing on the sidelines wanting to go into the game to rescue their teammates and kick some ass. But you, the manager sit on your hands watching 5 O-linemen and 2 large TEs beat the slowly but surely beat the piss out of your 4 down linemen, 2 undersized linebackers, and 5 defensive backs. Then the manager admits to the troops the next day that he had a hard time sleeping, wondering if he should have put the base defense into the game. Yesterday's trainwreck is one of the most egregious and obvious examples of bad coaching I've ever seen in my life. What is the worst thing that could have happened had Wanny sent fresh troops back into the game? Did he not see Bryan Scott whiffing on tackles? Did he not sense as all of us did that his troops needed to be physically reinforced with bigger, stronger, younger, well-rested men in order to have any chance of preventing the enemy from scoring 6 consecutive touchdowns? It's really very simple.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I think that Promo's two ideas are connected. He thinks that throwing Wannstedt under the bus is a bad idea, and that Gailey will avoid throwing him under the bus by publicly expressing his faith in him. I agree with both of those things. Even if Gailey is 100% sure he's going to fire Wannstedt at the end of the season, he gains nothing by announcing that intention now. Gains nothing, that is, beyond the perception that he is disloyal to his subordinates. A perception which would make Gailey's coaching staff a less attractive destination for would-be replacements to Wannstedt. Not just showing loyalty to his subordinates, but maintaining team unity. Chan has to be the rock right now. If the players see him panic or looking to blame others he loses the locker room. "You dog one of us, you dog all of us" still applies, and it includes Chan. PTR
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I hope you guys are right that gestures towards unity and loyalty and the like will have a positive effect. As far as leadership and confidence in the Head Coach, the team lost 10 of their last 11 games last season so I'm not sure how much Chan can play the role of a rock right now. I could counter with arguments about accountability and being a stern taskmaster, or being results-oriented, etc. But it's all rhetoric and you guys know the counter-arguments anyways. I'll finish by saying that I think very little of the blame falls on the players and I think it's very admirable that the Bills never seem to call out each other in public. It makes for a nice, cozy reciprocal agreement. I sometimes think that a little creative (and public) disagreement… a little honesty, might be good for all parties involved.
KOKBILLS Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Couldn't disagree more. I'd bet there's lots of D coordinators that could do a better job than Wanny's done in this first month. The guy was here all of last year. He knows most of these players. They kept the terminology the same. If you watch the game it's not hard to see that the Bills have been woefully outcoached. Sarcasm aside, there are many incompetent coaches who've spent time in the NFL. The Peter Principle is considered to be a very legitimate belief. Well...I'm not trying to defend Wanny at all...I'm really not...Outcoached or not (and I'm not disagreeing...they were outcoached) you've got hundreds of millions of getting whipped on that D-Line...You see other Teams with similar talent creating havoc on every down with their front 4...Individuals making plays one-on-one...Guys beating their man on the line and making plays in the backfield...D-Line play is not as much about scheme as the back 7...It's about getting the job done on every down...beating your man...Fighting off the block and making plays...That is not happening with Buffalo's D-Line nearly enough...I'm not saying whatsoever that Wanny is doing a great job...I am saying those guys on the D-line are doing him no favors...And he is basing his WHOLE Defensive Game Plan on those D-Lineman not only playing well, but playing exceptionally...Like they are being paid to do... And I'll ask you again the question I posted above...Dareus or Peterson?...Dareus or AJ Green, Watt, Smith, or Jones? This Kid should be a terror out there...He's not...And that is killing this Defense because they desperately need him to be that terror...He can do it too...But the time has come...We need him to be dominant...Not just good...Dominant...Peterson, Green, Watt, Smith, and Jones are all headed to the Pro-Bowl this year...We need Dareus to be there with them... And to me at least Wanny second guessing himself to those Players is actually the most troubling thing concerning his Coaching ability...Should he have played Shep and Moats more? Most definitely...But what I would rather hear is Wanny telling these ridiculously paid D-Linemen to get up off their asses and start dominating like they are being paid to do...That would be good Coaching...Like I said I'm not defending Wanny at all...But I am also going to keep it real...I know what I see...I see 4 down lineman getting blocked and staying blocked...And that is a HUGE problem...They better fix it quick...Or this Season is over...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well KOKBILLS, I understand your point. I thought the Bills D-line was fighting very hard in the first half. I felt that in the second half when they realized that their boss didn't see the need to make any changes that they, like the "linebackers" and like the DBs became pretty much demoralized. It's kind of a tit for tat… "you're (the coaches) hanging us out to dry?… okay here you go…" It's really hard to play hard when you feel like your boss is a total incompetent and isn't on your side. I guess what I'm saying is that if the D-line was well-coached, that they would fight hard but this coaching staff is crushing the spirit of their own players. And again, you had 5 O-linemen, two huge TEs, blocking 4 D-linemen, 2 undersized LBs, and 5 DBs. The physical mismatch was comic/tragic.
KOKBILLS Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well KOKBILLS, I understand your point. I thought the Bills D-line was fighting very hard in the first half. I felt that in the second half when they realized that their boss didn't see the need to make any changes that they, like the "linebackers" and like the DBs became pretty much demoralized. It's kind of a tit for tat… "you're (the coaches) hanging us out to dry?… okay here you go…" It's really hard to play hard when you feel like your boss is a total incompetent and isn't on your side. I guess what I'm saying is that if the D-line was well-coached, that they would fight hard but this coaching staff is crushing the spirit of their own players. And again, you had 5 O-linemen, two huge TEs, blocking 4 D-linemen, 2 undersized LBs, and 5 DBs. The physical mismatch was comic/tragic. I totally agree they were demoralized...And a lot of that had to do with the Game Plan (Coaching), and the fact that they were trampled for 3 Quarters and completely spent by the 4th...The problem is I think we are both right...And that does not bode well for this Defense whatsoever...Not 1/4 into the season...There is a lot to be done here...And now, very little time, and even less room for error...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well they say it's always darkest just before the sun rises… and as sports fans we've all seen teams respond when they've been written off so there's still some hope. Wannstedt is 60 years old and has been coaching for almost 40 years… but maybe he can use this as a "teachable moment" for himself. I'm attending the next two games so obviously I'm hoping that this horrific loss has some kind of positive effect. Hoping but not expecting.
Orton's Arm Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well...I'm not trying to defend Wanny at all...I'm really not...Outcoached or not (and I'm not disagreeing...they were outcoached) you've got hundreds of millions of getting whipped on that D-Line...You see other Teams with similar talent creating havoc on every down with their front 4...Individuals making plays one-on-one...Guys beating their man on the line and making plays in the backfield...D-Line play is not as much about scheme as the back 7...It's about getting the job done on every down...beating your man...Fighting off the block and making plays...That is not happening with Buffalo's D-Line nearly enough...I'm not saying whatsoever that Wanny is doing a great job...I am saying those guys on the D-line are doing him no favors...And he is basing his WHOLE Defensive Game Plan on those D-Lineman not only playing well, but playing exceptionally...Like they are being paid to do... And I'll ask you again the question I posted above...Dareus or Peterson?...Dareus or AJ Green, Watt, Smith, or Jones? This Kid should be a terror out there...He's not...And that is killing this Defense because they desperately need him to be that terror...He can do it too...But the time has come...We need him to be dominant...Not just good...Dominant...Peterson, Green, Watt, Smith, and Jones are all headed to the Pro-Bowl this year...We need Dareus to be there with them... And to me at least Wanny second guessing himself to those Players is actually the most troubling thing concerning his Coaching ability...Should he have played Shep and Moats more? Most definitely...But what I would rather hear is Wanny telling these ridiculously paid D-Linemen to get up off their asses and start dominating like they are being paid to do...That would be good Coaching...Like I said I'm not defending Wanny at all...But I am also going to keep it real...I know what I see...I see 4 down lineman getting blocked and staying blocked...And that is a HUGE problem...They better fix it quick...Or this Season is over... Good post, and I agree with what you've written. Going into the 2011 draft, I hinted that the Bills should at least consider going after A.J. Green. I sensed that A.J. Green might well become a special player--a far more special player than Dareus. But I did not come right out and say that the Bills should choose Green over Dareus. I'm starting to wish that I had. Ideally, you want your defensive line to do three things: 1) control the line of scrimmage, 2) generate pressure and sacks, and 3) absorb lots of double teams; thereby freeing up the back seven to make plays. I'm not convinced the Bills' defensive line did any of those things particularly well, in either half. One of the reasons why the Patriots' TEs were able to physically dominate guys like Scott is because the Patriots didn't need to keep their TEs in to block. The Bills' defensive linemen were for the most part being handled one-on-one. None of the Bills' defensive linemen played well. > I see 4 down lineman getting blocked and staying blocked...And that is a HUGE problem...They better fix it quick...Or this Season is over... Agreed with the getting and staying blocked part. But let's say, hypothetically speaking, that the Bills make no changes during the season, and go 4-12 or 5-11 as a result. A record like that would put us at or near a draft position in which to take one of the top-rated QBs. (Trading up by a few slots is a lot less painful than trading up by many slots!) Additionally, that record would at very least get Wannstedt fired for his defensive coaching (or lack thereof). Next year's Bills team would have a real quarterback--or at very least a rookie who will gradually become one. It would also (hopefully) have a real defensive coordinator. Worse things could happen than that, even if the price for those things is getting beaten up a lot over the next 12 games.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well they say it's always darkest just before the sun rises… "They" have never seen a sunrise. All kidding aside, the players said that the Patriots just kept running the same 3 plays over and over. And they just stayed in the same defense down after down. They said they were prepared for Wes Welker and the Gronk. But, it is clear to everyone that there was a coaching failure. Wannstedt simply refused to adapt to the circumstances and stuck with what wasn't working to the tune of historic futility. If he's falling asleep at the wheel, then somebody needs to step up and call the defense. And quickly.
Canadian Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 the ship has sunk And is now at the bottom of the ocean CBF
BuffaloFan68 Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 It's pretty obvious that the D does not respect Wanny and rightfully so. With Wanny on board - the next 2 games are going to be UGLY!
Since 1972 Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Not just showing loyalty to his subordinates, but maintaining team unity. Chan has to be the rock right now. If the players see him panic or looking to blame others he loses the locker room. "You dog one of us, you dog all of us" still applies, and it includes Chan. PTR Is it ok to dog them when they play like dogs?
papazoid Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I think that Promo's two ideas are connected. He thinks that throwing Wannstedt under the bus is a bad idea, and that Gailey will avoid throwing him under the bus by publicly expressing his faith in him. I agree with both of those things. Even if Gailey is 100% sure he's going to fire Wannstedt at the end of the season, he gains nothing by announcing that intention now. Gains nothing, that is, beyond the perception that he is disloyal to his subordinates. A perception which would make Gailey's coaching staff a less attractive destination for would-be replacements to Wannstedt. exactly...
RkFast Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Could it be Chan is fine with the way Wanny is running the D because he hasn't a clue about the defense? Personally I think the HC should be HC, not OC or DC at the same time. I think this interferes with his ability to manage the game and see the performance of his coaches more objectively. I think that planes should only have ONE pilot. Who needs two, anyways?
MikeSpeed Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 You cannot run college schemes against pro teams. They can win against bad teams at times but get crushed by good ones.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Is it ok to dog them when they play like dogs? As long as it's Chan doing the dogging. PTR
Since 1972 Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 As long as it's Chan doing the dogging. PTR Well then, guess Chan is the only one who praise them,defend them, etc. So why should we EVER need to discuss anything relative to this teams play or lack there of...
GG Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) This is pure conjecture on my part, but I have a suspicion that Gailey may not be Wanny's biggest fan and I'm still not convinced it was his choice to elevate Wanny to DC. If Gailey had his druthers, I'm betting that he would have stuck it out with George EdwardsBob Sanders and continued the 3-4 "experiment" He was staunchly defending Edwards Sanders last year, but as usual after an awful season at OBD, a sacrificial lamb needs to be fed to the owner. George Edwards Bob Sanders was that guy. But I'm not convinced that Gailey would have gone with Wanny if given the choice. But good luck paying Wanny, Edwards Sanders and another DC for 2012. So it's very likely Gailey accepted his new defensive coordinator by default. But what troubles me most about Gailey's management style is that he does not take charge of ineffective assistant coaches. We have evidence of special teams mismanagement, and now complete defensive embarrassments in two key divisional games. It reminds me of Levy when he gave assistants full autonomy, even when performance was lacking. Can you imagine Parcells or Belichick allowing the defensive coordinator to call the same plays over and over, even though the opponent was gashing him for 15 yards a pop on consecutive identical plays? The claim that Gailey doesn't know anything about defense is laughable. The guy has been an NFL and Div I head coach. He knows defense. But it's obvious that he needs to assert more control over his assistants who aren't performing. Edited October 2, 2012 by GG
Coach Tuesday Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 This is pure conjecture on my part, but I have a suspicion that Gailey may not be Wanny's biggest fan and I'm still not convinced it was his choice to elevate Wanny to DC. If Gailey had his druthers, I'm betting that he would have stuck it out with Bob Sanders and continued the 3-4 "experiment" He was staunchly defending Sanders last year, but as usual after an awful season at OBD, a sacrificial lamb needs to be fed to the owner. Bob Sanders was that guy. But I'm not convinced that Gailey would have gone with Wanny if given the choice. But good luck paying Wanny, Sanders and another DC for 2012. So it's very likely Gailey accepted his new defensive coordinator by default. But what troubles me most about Gailey's management style is that he does not take charge of ineffective assistant coaches. We have evidence of special teams mismanagement, and now complete defensive embarrassments in two key divisional games. It reminds me of Levy when he gave assistants full autonomy, even when performance was lacking. Can you imagine Parcells or Belichick allowing the defensive coordinator to call the same plays over and over, even though the opponent was gashing him for 15 yards a pop on consecutive identical plays? The claim that Gailey doesn't know anything about defense is laughable. The guy has been an NFL and Div I head coach. He knows defense. But it's obvious that he needs to assert more control over his assistants who aren't performing. Bob Sanders? Bob Sanders is still on the staff. Do you mean Edwards?
GG Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Bob Sanders? Bob Sanders is still on the staff. Do you mean Edwards? oops. Yeah, all these Bobs are melding together. (Sanders got stuck in my mind because he was the dark horse to replace Edwards as the DC) Edited October 2, 2012 by GG
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