Turbosrrgood Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Can't we do this for just about any position ? And you are saying that the Bengals, 49ers, Seahawks are better that QB evaluation than the Bills ? You are excusing the FO for not knowing which QB had the potential to be significantly better than Fitz ? Then why evaluate any front office ? why fire any GM or college scout ? Can't each and every incompetent, out of work GM claim that he did the best he could at the time ? It is their job to know who is a talent worth drafting. And what we are doing here is performance evaluation. Which happens in every organization every year. An understanding of what the individual did well and what he has to work on in the coming year. An assessment of whether past mistakes are serious enough for a demotion or a firing. This is not hindsight. The good organizations get things done. And Nix has failed at setting us in the most important position. I am not using this argument as a blanket criticism of his regime. Arguably, he has made some very good decisions in retaining and letting go players. But for the QB position, he has failed so far. Saying "we should have taken a QB over who we took with 2nd pick 2 years ago" is hindsight. You are saying it would have been the correct decision based on the information we gained AFTER those decisions were made...Yes that is hindsight. If Dalton turned out to be a flop (like a Blane Gabbert), no one would even be talking about this. We could have taken Gabbert instead of Dareus if Gabbert was lighting it up, people would be saying we made a "mistake" about that as well. Now what a more fair assessment would be, is to say that who we DID take has not worked out. Aaron Williams is not living up to the expectations of the early 2nd round pick used to take him. It's fair to say that the FO did a poor job of talent evaluation, since AW has been a disappointment so far. The FO certainly can be evaluated on the success (or lack there of) of the guys they DID take. There is a difference between judging something that COULD have happened based on information from AFTER the decision (hindsight), and evaluating the decision that was actually made. Edited November 20, 2012 by Turbosrrgood
Fan in Chicago Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 There is a difference between judging something that COULD have happened based on information from AFTER the decision (hindsight), and something that DID happen. Okay. How about I put it this way - Nix and Gailey should have have seen that the QBs they had on their roster were not the kind to take the team to the promised land. This would not have been hindsight, it would have been an assessment of existing players. What SHOULD have happened is that they make a concerted effort from day 1 to land that guy. What did happen is that the position was largely ignored save for the dabbling with a low pick, Vince Young, Tarvaris Jackson etc. And what did happen is that we continue to get mediocre and inconsistent play out of the position. These are facts. No hindsighting in any of it.
Jauronimo Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Okay. How about I put it this way - Nix and Gailey should have have seen that the QBs they had on their roster were not the kind to take the team to the promised land. This would not have been hindsight, it would have been an assessment of existing players. What SHOULD have happened is that they make a concerted effort from day 1 to land that guy. What did happen is that the position was largely ignored save for the dabbling with a low pick, Vince Young, Tarvaris Jackson etc. And what did happen is that we continue to get mediocre and inconsistent play out of the position. These are facts. No hindsighting in any of it. Nope, thats still hindsight. And to take your argument a step further, you'll have to prove that Kaepernick was the better pick than Williams with information only available prior to the draft.
Turbosrrgood Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Okay. How about I put it this way - Nix and Gailey should have have seen that the QBs they had on their roster were not the kind to take the team to the promised land. This would not have been hindsight, it would have been an assessment of existing players. What SHOULD have happened is that they make a concerted effort from day 1 to land that guy. What did happen is that the position was largely ignored save for the dabbling with a low pick, Vince Young, Tarvaris Jackson etc. And what did happen is that we continue to get mediocre and inconsistent play out of the position. These are facts. No hindsighting in any of it. Well I agree with you're opinion there anyway. I think that's a pretty common feeling around here. What is bothering me a little now, is that THIS seems to be the year that they want to go after a QB. This year seems to be one of the most talent deprived drafts at the QB position in a while... Not saying that they can't get a good QB, but there are no obvious Lucks, Mannings, or RG3's in this draft. While it's obvious Fitz isn't ever going to be a top QB in this league, he is better than the list of QB's that preceded him. I just don't want to take a QB for the sake of taking a QB, and end up with another Losman or Edwards. Edited November 20, 2012 by Turbosrrgood
NoSaint Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Nope, thats still hindsight. And to take your argument a step further, you'll have to prove that Kaepernick was the better pick than Williams with information only available prior to the draft. CK was a very raw player that kind of shot up the boards on measurables, and Williams was a decently regarded player that slipped some to get to us in R2. i dont think it wouldve been crazy to have them ordered either way. realistically, CK was (and still is) a roll of the dice.
MikeSpeed Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Jumping the gun on young inexperienced players with "potential" is really the only way you can trade for one. If we want Kap now would be the only time available to do it. If you wait for the potential come to fruition it's too late the team will demand too high a price or won't trade at all. It's risky, but it's the only play you have if you think a guy is on the cusp of being good. Edited November 20, 2012 by MikeSpeed
PromoTheRobot Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) This is not a discussion about which fans were correct about which QB. This is about whether the FO was truly correct that there was no upgrade available near our pick positions. Oh but it is. Because TBD wants every QB that comes down the pike. So saying "I wanted so-and-so" doesn't make you an expert when you also wanted 20 other QBs that didn't amount to squat. "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky And 97% of the ones you do. Edited November 20, 2012 by PromoTheRobot
BuffaloWest Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Stupid Post-Why on earth would San Fran trade him to us for a second? They took him with a second round pick -Just last year. They are probably going to keep him and shuttle Alex Smith out of town. Now that they see he is capable he probably becomes the starter. San Fran clearly wasnt comfortable with Smith-That is why they picked Kapernick, and flirted withPeyton manning-Smith has a one year deal aI believe-he is history in SF.... Hey Maybe Indy will trade us Luck , we could give them our first round pick! Brilliant.
buffalover4life Posted November 20, 2012 Author Posted November 20, 2012 Stupid Post-Why on earth would San Fran trade him to us for a second? They took him with a second round pick -Just last year. They are probably going to keep him and shuttle Alex Smith out of town. Now that they see he is capable he probably becomes the starter. San Fran clearly wasnt comfortable with Smith-That is why they picked Kapernick, and flirted withPeyton manning-Smith has a one year deal aI believe-he is history in SF.... Hey Maybe Indy will trade us Luck , we could give them our first round pick! Brilliant. The thread was started before yesterday.......
BillsBytheBay Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Okay. How about I put it this way - Nix and Gailey should have have seen that the QBs they had on their roster were not the kind to take the team to the promised land. This would not have been hindsight, it would have been an assessment of existing players. What SHOULD have happened is that they make a concerted effort from day 1 to land that guy. What did happen is that the position was largely ignored save for the dabbling with a low pick, Vince Young, Tarvaris Jackson etc. And what did happen is that we continue to get mediocre and inconsistent play out of the position. These are facts. No hindsighting in any of it. you seem to think you know their priorities. I still think the bills were going to get the guys that they had the most confidence would improve the team. Not a QB they thought is marginally better than Fitz. The most aggravating part of all the people loosing their minds over drafting a QB is out side of the chumps, and guys with fitz's skill set, who could we have taken? Maybe Wilson, but only posters on TBD knew he was a shore thing.... I don't think Fitz is "the guy". But until we stop losing games we score 30 freaken points in, keep building that team nix. I can wait a little longer for a QB.
GG Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I don't think Fitz is "the guy". But until we stop losing games we score 30 freaken points in, keep building that team nix. I can wait a little longer for a QB. Ok then, how is Nix's record in drafting defense?
#34fan Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) CK was a very raw player that kind of shot up the boards on measurables, and Williams was a decently regarded player that slipped some to get to us in R2. i dont think it wouldve been crazy to have them ordered either way. realistically, CK was (and still is) a roll of the dice. I have to disagree. Rolling dice is not, and will NEVER be analagous to assessing NFL talent properly. The amount of legwork, homework and observation that (should) go into forming an accurate opinion on a player is MILES away from any drunken decision made at The Palms, the Rio, Bally's, Caesars, -You get the point. CK1 (Kaepernick) was not as big of a crap-shoot as people thought. His NCAA records speak for themselves. Kaepernick became a national football hero at a school not known for it's football prowess. He quickly gained a reputation as a giant-killer. Routinely knocking-off statistically superior opponents. Having watched him rise to many ocasions throughout his college career, last night's performance comes as no surprise. The only people surprised are those who weren't paying attention in the first place. Jim Harbaugh saw it. Pete Carroll saw it with Russell Wilson. Where some teams see an offensive GOLDMINE, others see an excuse to pass, and take the safe bet. Don't get me wrong, I think DB's are great. However, I've never seen a DB consistently effect the outcome of a football game.** I've never seen a DB lead their team to a superbowl, and I've never seen a DB mount a game-winning drive. Recognizing talent in others isn't a gamble, but a talent in itself. Those who don't have "the eye" for it, are left with no option but to go by the book. Sadly, they're often at home reading that book throughout the playoffs. GO BILLS. [**Admittedly, Deion Sanders came close.] Edited November 20, 2012 by #34fan
HailMary Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Just get it right at the draft and take a guy like Kaepernick over Aaron Williams. Besides, this guy is going to be competing for the starting job in SF next year if he doesn't take it this year.
BillsBytheBay Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Ok then, how is Nix's record in drafting defense? better than qb's. Not to bad. Didn't like troup, but other than that I'm fine with it. When the VERY young, and recently drafted players learn to play fast in our brand new defense, with our brand new DC, oh never mind. Your right. I really thought Batton, and white were going to be saviours from the sixth round..... Love Gilmore. Love Marcel. But addressing the QB is going to stop teams from scoring? I can't belive I even answered that. Really? Because you think they draft bad defensive personal, we shouldn't draft defensive players?
mattsox Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) I was wondering what people would think of a trade for Colin kaepernick. I would drop a second round pic for him in a heart beat. I think he is the best back up in the league and is stuck behind alex smith on the depth chart. I would love to see the bills make a move for him because I don't see us being a top 5 pick in next years draft and we will not trade up to get the QB that we need. Fitz is just way to inconsistent to go another year with. Kaepernick has a strong arm. is one of those athletes that would be feared at the position. he has been coached up for a little over a year under one of the leagues quarterback gurus in harbaugh he was drafted in the second round I would go as far as giving up a 2nd and a 3rd for him in season or maybe the first pick in the off season depending on where we fall. Terrible Idea. 3 big reasons why. 1. He's not gonna be "feared" This is the NFL. No such thing as fear in this league. You figure out the player by watching film and take away the advantage by compensating. That's how it's done with everyone in this league. 2. 49ers are gonna want waaay more for him than a 2nd and 3rd round pick. 3. Rather give up draft choices for someone who is worth it. We need to get someone ala Luck or RG3. If Geno Smith or the other guy can't fill that bill, I can patiently wait till 2014. Heck we've waited this long haven't we? Edited November 20, 2012 by mattsox
Maury Ballstein Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Crappy corners are a dime a dozen. he's a first round pick playing well on ST in a contract year. I'd help him pack his locker, and pack it to the bus.He's replaceable for what he was drafted for. A lot of people wanted him cut last year, as he's always a liability in coverage. Also,he doesn't have the gas left in the tank to be a special teams player for 4-5 years. Bills are probably 0-10 right now without McK.......He has put the team in a good position uber frequently with his great kick and punt returns. Put him on the list with Levitre and Byrd is the play IMO. Perhaps we can go back to the Kevin Williams ST days where nothing was returned for years. Love me some McK get er done buddy. Cut AW while your at it FWIW. Edited November 20, 2012 by Ryan L Billz
Meathead Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 It doesn't matter who we draft, sign or trade for. We'd turn them into crap. ... but only after they got a big payday Oh but it is. Because TBD wants every QB that comes down the pike. So saying "I wanted so-and-so" doesn't make you an expert when you also wanted 20 other QBs that didn't amount to squat. ty And 97% of the ones you do. ty2
Alphadawg7 Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 We shouldnt have to get er done...we should have drafted him...or Mallet...or Dalton...or Wilson...or Foles...or Cousins...or a bunch of other guys over the years.
Big Hurt Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Maybe wait till he has done something in the NFL. Remember Rob Johnson? Do we ever learn.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 What does that mean??? He stuck behind a pretty good QB so that makes him trash?? Is that what you trying to say??? Steve Young was stuck behind Joe Montana so that makes him trash huh??? History says, sucks to be the 49ers when it comes to QB play, dunnit? I think the 49ers are intent on building a new dynasty. Teams building a new dynasty, typically want an "heir and a spare" when it comes to QB - the starter, "heir" to the franchise legacy, and the "spare" in case the heir goes down Besides, wouldn't we be so much better to trade for Vick?
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