Fitz Sack = ? And O-line Pride

[Doc]

If you can picture the throwing motion of a QB, he brings his entire arm back and then brings his forearm forwards. If he lost control of the ball before moving his forearm forward, the ball would have gone backwards, unless he contacted the ball again, i.e. slapping it forwards, which he did not.

[vincec]

The ball went forward. That, and the laws of physics.

 

In order to stop the backward motion of the ball as he drew his arm back, he must have had control of the ball until at least that point. Physics! You stated in an earlier post that "Until the arm starts moving forward with control of the ball, it's not a forward pass." According to the rule book, you are simply incorrect:

 

"When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass."

 

His hand does not have to be moving forward with the ball. Once he establishes control, as he did by stopping the backward movement of the ball, "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass," which would include his fingertips. The "empty hand" rule only applies when there is contact with an opponent.

 

I guess you and the replay officials saw Fitz flailing his arms at the ball and accidentally knocking it forward. That's not what I saw.

 

Thanks for the link, by the way; the link I posted was getting old.

I guess I just don't understand what you're saying. Are you claiming that:

 

a) you don't have to be in control of the ball in order to throw a pass and that anytime someone flips, batts or throws a ball forward it is a pass?

b) Fitz did have control of the ball when his arm started moving forward so it was a pass?

c) The QB windup is part of the act of passing so Fitz initiated his pass with control when he started his windup?

d) Maintaining contact with the ball is all you need to do to demonstrate control, so even though the ball started coming out of Fitz's hand during his windup he didn't completely lose it until he had already started throwing the ball forwad.

e) Something else.

 

I also don't understand your point about the hand not having to move forward. If you are throwing the ball backwards then isn't it a lateral? The ball has to be moving forward for it to be a forward pass doesn't it?

Edited September 27, 2012 by vincec

[slipkid]

I guess I just don't understand what you're saying. Are you claiming that:

 

a) you don't have to be in control of the ball in order to throw a pass and that anytime someone flips, batts or throws a ball forward it is a pass?

 

Nope.

 

b) Fitz did have control of the ball when his arm started moving forward so it was a pass?

 

Not exactly. I'm saying that Fitz must have had control of the ball when he stopped drawing his arm backward. Otherwise, the ball would have gone backward. As I read the rule, once control is established at the end of the windup, "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." Although the rule doesn't explicitly say so, I suspect that the movement should be forward.

 

c) The QB windup is part of the act of passing so Fitz initiated his pass with control when he started his windup?

 

Nope. I am claiming it was a pass once he displayed control at the end of his windup.

 

d) Maintaining contact with the ball is all you need to do to demonstrate control, so even though the ball started coming out of Fitz's hand during his windup he didn't completely lose it until he had already started throwing the ball forwad.

 

There's the rub! I may be wrong and don't want to misrepresent you, but your point seems to be that he lost control during his windup. I am saying that it didn't look like that to me.

 

Ultimately, regardless of what we think we saw, he had to have control of the ball at the end of the windup in order for the ball to have ended up going forward. If he did not have control at the end of his windup, the ball would have at least rolled off his fingertips . . . backward. The ball went forward which means he had to have stopped the backward movement of the ball. That's where I am claiming "Physics!" in my pseudo-intelligent manner.

 

I also don't understand your point about the hand not having to move forward. If you are throwing the ball backwards then isn't it a lateral? The ball has to be moving forward for it to be a forward pass doesn't it?

 

I didn't mean that the hand doesn't need to be moving forward. I meant that he does not have to have control of the ball as the hand moves forward.

 

Somewhat unrelated, I think we've both seen some pretty ugly balls slip out of Fitz's hands. He's susceptible to calls like this.

 

As MDH/Hal pointed out, though, I fear that this is quickly becoming an unhealthy obsession. especially with Pats* coming to town in a couple days. I'll save everyone my rants now.

[3rdand12]

Nope.

 

 

 

Not exactly. I'm saying that Fitz must have had control of the ball when he stopped drawing his arm backward. Otherwise, the ball would have gone backward. As I read the rule, once control is established at the end of the windup, "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." Although the rule doesn't explicitly say so, I suspect that the movement should be forward.

 

 

 

Nope. I am claiming it was a pass once he displayed control at the end of his windup.

 

 

 

There's the rub! I may be wrong and don't want to misrepresent you, but your point seems to be that he lost control during his windup. I am saying that it didn't look like that to me.

 

Ultimately, regardless of what we think we saw, he had to have control of the ball at the end of the windup in order for the ball to have ended up going forward. If he did not have control at the end of his windup, the ball would have at least rolled off his fingertips . . . backward. The ball went forward which means he had to have stopped the backward movement of the ball. That's where I am claiming "Physics!" in my pseudo-intelligent manner.

 

 

 

I didn't mean that the hand doesn't need to be moving forward. I meant that he does not have to have control of the ball as the hand moves forward.

 

Somewhat unrelated, I think we've both seen some pretty ugly balls slip out of Fitz's hands. He's susceptible to calls like this.

 

As MDH/Hal pointed out, though, I fear that this is quickly becoming an unhealthy obsession. especially with Pats* coming to town in a couple days. I'll save everyone my rants now.

Genleman both,

This discussion of details has been a great pleasure to read.

Reminds me of the writing of the Constitution

and the democratic dialogues that took place in that era.

Thanks for a perfect example in clarifying differences of opinion.

Every one learns something. I have.

Now on a lighter note, i hope it isnt raining Sunday. Fitz has a particularly bad history of turnovers against the Patriots.

Thanks guys

Edited September 27, 2012 by 3rdand12

[NoSaint]

If you can picture the throwing motion of a QB, he brings his entire arm back and then brings his forearm forwards. If he lost control of the ball before moving his forearm forward, the ball would have gone backwards, unless he contacted the ball again, i.e. slapping it forwards, which he did not.

 

now picture something in your hand that you have bobbled, it doesnt always fly across the room, sometimes it stays pretty closely in your hand but as it bobbles around you have anything but control of it. now picture that while in a throwing motion you cant stop - it can bobble while going back with completely exiting the hand and then when you start the forward part you push it instead of throwing it. not a pass.

[Doc]

now picture something in your hand that you have bobbled, it doesnt always fly across the room, sometimes it stays pretty closely in your hand but as it bobbles around you have anything but control of it. now picture that while in a throwing motion you cant stop - it can bobble while going back with completely exiting the hand and then when you start the forward part you push it instead of throwing it. not a pass.

Except it exhibited no properties of being "bobbled." It was a forward pass.

[3rdand12]

Except it exhibited no properties of being "bobbled." It was a forward pass.

so much for dialogue!