dayman Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) It's cool. I don't recall the specifics but generally speaking I think everyone agrees that infrastructure is an essential government function. Much of it is appropriate for government because the external benefits and capital investment required make it impractical to leave to the private sector. There's certainly room for debate over what level of government is most appropriate to undertake particular products. Where I assume we differ is that where logistics make it practical to charge those who use a service for its utility, those projects should be PRIMARILY left to the private sector because when that utility is sufficient to warrant such a project it will be profitable. It it's not profitable it ALMOST always means the overall cost to society outweighs the benefit & therefore subsidizing such a project is counterproductive and takes scarce resources that would have otherwise been used to create more utility and therefore the cost to society is the difference between the utility provided by the project and that which would have existed had those resources been more efficiently allocated. The problem is that it's easy to see the utility in the project that was undertaken, no matter how wasteful the capital investment may have been, while virtually impossible to quantify or determine what would have existed otherwise - same principle by which its easier to see the loss of an existing job than that of 2 jobs that would have been created but weren't. So leaving out some of the things I find attractive such as long term rail (or even short term efficiency rail improvement) and moving towards green energy and a smarter delivery grid...this fits into your world view how? And I really don't mean to be attacking here but it begs the question raised in previous discussion with you...which basically gets to the point that you have communicated to me that human carbon emissions negative effects on the long term environment is a hoax. And if that is in fact the opinion...then even so...the economics of the nation...plays in how? And we might as well address the retrofit debate which is by far the one I am most passionate about b/c that is a nobrainer as I said earlier and one government should EASILY help facilitate. Edited September 22, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) So leaving out some of the things I find attractive such as long term rail (or even short term efficiency rail improvement) and moving towards green energy and a smarter delivery grid...this fits into your world view how? And I really don't mean to be attacking here but it begs the question raised in previous discussion with you...which basically gets to the point that you have communicated to me that human carbon emissions negative effects on the long term environment is a hoax. And if that is in fact the opinion...then even so...the economics of the nation...plays in how? I love the idea of high speed rail, but other than selling or leasing land rights to build it I don't think the government should build it. If it provides a better transportation option for enough people to make it worthwhile it could operate on a for profit basis. If the cost would make ticket sales prohibitively expensive it's not productive in an economic sense. As far as the smart grid, I don't know enough about it to give specifics, but a better, more efficient, & more secure power grid could be an appropriate project for government to undertake under the same principles I explained for infrastrucure in general as well as potentially for national security reasons. As far as man-made global warming theory, it's not so much my contention that the theory is necessarily a hoax, although I'm sure I've said that, but more that the movement behind it is bull ****. If someone not using a mercater projection to show proportionality were to present empirical data explaining why their theory is correct, rather than telling me how many "scientists" support the theory I'd be more inclined to listen. But even if we establish that man-made carbon emissions are creating a potential global disaster, I still have yet to hear any realistic proposals to address the matter. Most of the "solutions" are "do-something" ideas that are based not on any logical or realistic plan to significantly reduce these emissions, but rather are based on the desire for the plan to work. And most of these plans do virtually nothing to curb a meaningful % of global carbon emissions but have a very high economic cost that has very significant detrimental effects on the overall economy. Edit: I'm all for retrofitting, but not under a categorical approach, but rather on a case by case analysis. Obviously it makes sense to upgrade your technology if it will pay for itself in energy savings, but I don't want to spend $1000 to save $100. As far as government's role I don't think it should be imposed on businesses or individuals. Generally speaking they will upgrade to more efficient technologies when the cost-benefit ratio makes it economically viable. Edited September 22, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) I love the idea of high speed rail, but other than selling or leasing land rights to build it I don't think the government should build it. If it provides a better transportation option for enough people to make it worthwhile it could operate on a for profit basis. If the cost would make ticket sales prohibitively expensive it's not productive in an economic sense. As far as the smart grid, I don't know enough about it to give specifics, but a better, more efficient, & more secure power grid could be an appropriate project for government to undertake under the same principles I explained for infrastrucure in general as well as potentially for national security reasons. As far as man-made global warming theory, it's not so much my contention that the theory is necessarily a hoax, although I'm sure I've said that, but more that the movement behind it is bull ****. If someone not using a mercater projection to show proportionality were to present empirical data explaining why their theory is correct, rather than telling me how many "scientists" support the theory I'd be more inclined to listen. But even if we establish that man-made carbon emissions are creating a potential global disaster, I still have yet to hear any realistic proposals to address the matter. Most of the "solutions" are "do-something" ideas that are based not on any logical or realistic plan to significantly reduce these emissions, but rather are based on the desire for the plan to work. And most of these plans do virtually nothing to curb a meaningful % of global carbon emissions but have a very high economic cost that has very significant detrimental effects on the overall economy. Edit: I'm all for retrofitting, but not under a categorical approach, but rather on a case by case analysis. Obviously it makes sense to upgrade your technology if it will pay for itself in energy savings, but I don't want to spend $1000 to save $100. As far as government's role I don't think it should be imposed on businesses or individuals. Generally speaking they will upgrade to more efficient technologies when the cost-benefit ratio makes it economically viable. 1) My position on high speed rail is simply that your position is unrealistic in modern America...as a working unit it isn't for me and you but more so for our kids (assuming you are close to my age...I am probably younger than you) and more likely in mass for our grand-kids. But as I said above....we'll leave that out. It can be more useful in certain locations sooner but we'll not debate this.... 2) The smart grid is the logistical disaster...that is the common sense obvious answer. it takes cooperation for from a bunch of local gov't/organizations all with their own "issues" but if we could operate like China (not that we should) we would be on the same page...b/c it's obvious and worth it 3) Global climate change is...simply put...a problem IMO. Whether you agree w/ the personalities that have come to the front of the movement or various things surrounding it...we must be a leader in combating it. India and China (2.5 billion combined maybe more I'm not sure last I checked it was that) are coal dependent in large part and if we don't lead the way we miss a huge $$$ opportunity for the next century and leave the world to burn. *4)Retrofits pay for themselves plain and simple....and most contractors that do them guarantee the savings. Many owners of huge energy gobbling buildings would be more apt if there were gov't programs to guarantee the loans allowing them to pay them back + interest from energy savings since the costs are high upfront and many are not credit worthy in the current economy. I know you don't live in NY but there are many building in NY that are taking these actions today including the Empire State Building (Google it) and the facts largely show that this is a no-brainer and gov't backed loans would only accelerate savings for everyone. And it's not just gov't backed loans for private sector buildings that are rock solid but also countless public buildings and schools that could lead the way (as the military is doing). ...and btw as far as "jobs' are concerned...nothing beat retrofitting Edited September 22, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Final Edit: Very little of this btw...is IMO partisan...I know some will disagree...but much of these ideas are in fact VASTLY accelerated by reinvestment act (contrary to common right-wing media bashing, left wing giving up, and political cowardice/incompetence...but it's in there)...as well as other things I was talking about like Healthcare IT, APRA-E, etc...we need people that plant orchards not those that operate based on election cycles and cable news (it is true Obama had opportunity like no other but he really DID plant seeds to follow through and many of his campaign promises probably more that any president in history in 4 years)...nothing is to say the debt isn't important...but this cut cut cut and no tax and "free market cures all" won't keep us up front next century (literally NO evidence the anti-gov't philosophy works in the coming century of a globalized economy where everyone is playing the game and things are changing faster than ever...NONE) and I haven't even really got into some of things in the reinvestment act I like even more (and btw this isn't abandoning "capitalism"...it's just doing what smart successful nations are doing in the modern world)....this discussion cuts to the core of why I like Obama more than Romney btw...much more than forcing me to defend the ACA which I don't think is SOOO terrible like others but I don't like all that much (but still don't hate w/ ignorant faax-arguments). These are just a FEW issues why the current GOP IMO (as is) is lost. I certainly hope they hope they reorganize and come back as a resonable alternative but these few issues are concrete examples of why to me...I can never vote for the bloc that is ... imo ... going to sink us. I know Obama will sink us to you all... but these are some examples (not all btw) of why IMO he's more apt to make us stronger than the GOP. It's not just b/c he's cool...it's b/c there are progressives out there who actually look long term w/ a different view....and also btw I know this burns you all to say this but he really does care about the money...and there will be cuts....either way...more than have been on the table before...the question is simply whether there will be taxes.... The bottom line is the technocrat approach to the next century with a balanced approach to our current financial difficulties (capitalizing on our OBVIOUS advantage in the world despite the sky is falling GOP narrative) is the one I want to vote for. It's Obama. And of course...it's about the people that live here...all of them. Edited September 22, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_dodgers007 Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 All of it. The runaway spending, stifling regulation, hovering housing markets, QE, Obamacare, uncertainty, etc. There's not one key thing & I'm aware much of it isn't directly w/n his control but he has and has had a great deal of influence over the general direction & it's all geared towards tinkering. Spending money is hurting the economy? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Look. All the puzzle pieces are out there in broad daylight. If you haven't put the pieces together yet, I don't know what to tell you. But this is a topic that you should have more respect for. The Mayans don't play. You seem quite serious. I don't believe it will happen. Let's make a substantial wager on this end of the world thingy. I'll put up 10k to say it won't happen. Will you bet 10k to say it will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 You seem quite serious. I don't believe it will happen. Let's make a substantial wager on this end of the world thingy. I'll put up 10k to say it won't happen. Will you bet 10k to say it will? Define "end". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_dodgers007 Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 Define "end". How do you define "define"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Define "end". Let's make it simple. If you survive you owe me 10k. If I don't survive, I owe you 10k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/48da980c-03dd-11e2-9322-00144feabdc0.html#axzz27LGKHItC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 http://www.ft.com/in...l#axzz27LGKHItC http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1315479/Aliens-interfered-weapons-UFOs-deactivating-nuclear-missiles.html Let's make it simple. If you survive you owe me 10k. If I don't survive, I owe you 10k. I feel bad making a bet when I have inside knowledge. It just wouldn't be on the level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 http://www.dailymail...r-missiles.html I feel bad making a bet when I have inside knowledge. It just wouldn't be on the level. So they're coming for a visit on my birthday? Will they bring me a present? Maybe some Romulan Ale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 http://www.dailymail...r-missiles.html Nice. The alien space bats were disabling nuclear missiles years before they were even invented... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 So they're coming for a visit on my birthday? Will they bring me a present? Maybe some Romulan Ale? I can't speak for the Romulan Ale, but I've heard rumors that when they return they will settle the Kirk vs Picard debate once and for all. (Spoiler alert: The winner is 3rdling.... how is that possible you ask? Simple: http://www.daveware.co.uk/hannah/blog/files/aliens-meme.jpg ) Nice. The alien space bats were disabling nuclear missiles years before they were even invented... Things get complicated when you're talking about a species that can bend space and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Will I at least get laid on my birthday? As I said, it depends on your definition of laid. Not just libs. Ever stop and think why this election cycle has been the most divisive and aggressive in our history? Look at what happens on this board, there has been a noticeable uptick in the hostility within the responses over the past 18 months. It's almost like we're being wound up like a children's toy. Remember those matchbox cars that had the motors in them? You would roll them backwards to wind the gears and when you let go the car would fly and the more you wound the gears, the farther the car would go. Doesn't it feel like we're being wound up? And not just here in the US. Look around the rest of the world right now. We've got riots, civil wars and a media that has switched from information to entertainment -- giving them even more freedom to jack up the hype on every single issue. I mean, how else do can you existence of Justin Beiber or Rush Limbaugh? We're being manipulated. We're all inside that matchbox car right now and there's a giant unseen hand that keeps winding those gears and winding those gears and winding those gears. Just waiting for the moment they already know is coming (because they were told in advance) to let us go. And when they do, the matchbox car we're in is just going to go careening down the basement stairs, and we'll never be heard from again. The funniest part about the whole thing was the Mayans knew. They tried to warn us. They left all the signs out there in plain sight for us to see -- we just didn't look. Because someone told us once that people who did look were "crazy". We're all so desperate to fit in no one wants to be the crazy one (but for Beerball) that we ignored it. And now it's too late. Ok....Bob Weir/Art Bell. So now we have that tired old "The Quickening" nonsense they espouse....being morphed into the Mayan thing? Nice work. It's entertaining even...to see the creativity involved in trying to keep these "theories" alive...in the face of overwhelming evidence against. Read this...if you want to decrease your IQ for the next few weeks: http://awakeningasone.com/seek-the-truth/the-quickening-transcript/ Here's a hint: nothing is "quickening", Bob/Art...and every other baby boomer D-bag...you are simply getting old. Hahahahaha. As far as this board goes....it was way nastier....and way more full of nuts....4 years ago. Y'know, with people who actually believed that Obama = end of all war, end of all poverty, end of all reliance on fossil fuels, etc. They would go full retard if you dared poke the obvious holes..... Wait: didn't Obama get a peace prize? If you really want to identify a...talisman...that indicates the "great fall" of mankind? There it most certainly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Not just libs. Ever stop and think why this election cycle has been the most divisive and aggressive in our history? 1860. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Ok....Bob Weir/Art Bell. So now we have that tired old "The Quickening" nonsense they espouse....being morphed into the Mayan thing? Nice work. It's entertaining even...to see the creativity involved in trying to keep these "theories" alive...in the face of overwhelming evidence against. Read this...if you want to decrease your IQ for the next few weeks: http://awakeningason...ing-transcript/ While I've been on many long, strange trips I'm pretty sure I'm not Bob Weir or Art Shell. Weird combo you chose there. One's a musician the other is a former offensive lineman. Not sure what they have to the upcoming "situation" we will be facing. Here's a hint: nothing is "quickening", Bob/Art...and every other baby boomer D-bag...you are simply getting old. Hahahahaha. Pretty sure I'm not a baby boomer. Nothing is quickening? Really? You sure about that? The mere fact we're having this conversation on the internet is proof that things are indeed quickening. Globalization has shrunk our world, technology and communication continue to advance at exponential rates (that means it's quickening). In the past 25 years we've gone from a world without cell phones to a world were everyone has a computer 10x more powerful than anything from the 80s in their pocket. But there's a hole in our technology. A big missing gap of time that spans almost 100 years. Think about that for a moment -- really think about that. For all the advances we've made as a civilization in communications, medicine, and general tech, we're still using technology from the 1930s to travel. Why is that? We're missing 100 years of technology somehow... why is that so? As a species we went from the covered wagon to the railroad to the automobile to the moon in less than 100 years. The technology we developed in the 1930s (rockets, jet engines) are still the means of travel we use today. It's as if this one segment of technology research just stopped dead in the water. Why would that happen? If technology advances exponentially, how is it that we haven't advanced past the 1930s when it comes to simple propulsion? As far as this board goes....it was way nastier....and way more full of nuts....4 years ago. Y'know, with people who actually believed that Obama = end of all war, end of all poverty, end of all reliance on fossil fuels, etc. They would go full retard if you dared poke the obvious holes..... The mistake is thinking that the side show we call the election has any bearing on this conversation whatsoever. It's a charade. And for further proof, I recommend you look at this: http://devilsverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/mayan-rocket-ship.jpg 1860. The Mayans predicted that war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Pssst. It's Art Bell... the midnight ozone pilot from Tralfamadore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Pssst. It's Art Bell... the midnight ozone pilot from Tralfamadore. Yeah. He also played tackle for the Raiders. And coached them for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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