Steve Young was right.

[D521646]

I don't agree that probability of injury goes up. Some of the interference calls I have seen were based on mild, incidental contact and probably shouldn't have been called.

 

If I were the refs on strike I would be worried because the replacements are getting better each week and watching film on their calls, developing their skills etc. I would guess if the old refs aren't back within a month they will be gone for good.

 

 

This^^^ I will admit that the ref situation isn't great but I don't see or haven't seen any disparity of favoritism. I also see them getting better, and some crews better than others. I think of it as the new kid coming out of college with his brand spanking new masters degree suddenly put in charge of 50 seasoned employees. The kid is going to learn on the job, and no amount of bookworm skills will help him. It's the real deal now and he better get in shape pretty quick if we wants to gain their respect. Same with the refs here. Some latitiude is warranted and so far they haven't blown out a game with a bad call either way. If and when that happens it may spell curtains for them, but as an anti union guy I'm pulling for them, and think they're all trying really hard not to screw up too badly.

 

 

Tim-

[Glory Bound]

IMO, the officiating was so horrible Monday night, it added a real strange feel to the game...especially the way Terico was bringing it to the forefront (and rightly so). It almost felt like a second rate event that didn't matter, instead of a professional NFL game that was important. I say stop messin around & get the real ref's back, before this gets a lot worse. In the big scheme of things, it's chump change to accomplish this.

[Mr. WEO]

I don't agree that probability of injury goes up. Some of the interference calls I have seen were based on mild, incidental contact and probably shouldn't have been called.

 

If I were the refs on strike I would be worried because the replacements are getting better each week and watching film on their calls, developing their skills etc. I would guess if the old refs aren't back within a month they will be gone for good.

 

I agree. There is no obvious reason for injuries to go up. In fact I haven't heard of a single injury linked to a call or missed call this season. It's a nonsense line that the players (who have proven over and over again that they as a group have no interest in increasing their own safety) and the media keep repeating for some soft minded fans to absorb.

 

His most true, and most telling statement was that this shows the League does not care about player safety. There are plenty of examples of missed calls that put players in danger, and the general lack of respect for the replacement refs has made for very chippy and cheap play.

 

To take it a step further, this also shows that the entire Bounty-gate crap was only to protect the NFL from future litigation, and had very little to do with protecting players. That was just a nice excuse Roger got to use.

 

Give us plenty of examples please. And you may have missed it, but Bountygate was actually about players and coaches seeking to cause injury to other players.

 

i love how this mantra keeps getting repeated.....please explain to me how the refs are making it more dangerous for the players?

 

Do the refs protect the players during a play? No, they call a foul when a play is completed.

 

Do the refs make it safer to play football? No, the players themselves decide how safe it is or isn't. If a PLAYER hurts another PLAYER because he thinks he can get away with it with replacement refs, how about removing that player from the league.....isn't that how is should work?

 

Isn't this exact issue the problem we have with criminals in society?

 

Exactly. Apparently, players are so concerned about safety, yet they need other adults to keep them from willfully hurting eachother. Makes no logical sense.

 

 

 

What I care about is that games are stretching to crazy lengths. What I care about is that we find out after the fact that refs had clear conflicts of interest. (a Saints fan reffing a Saints game, a ref with an Eagles player starting in fantasy football) What I care about are the scrums which keep erupting (Bills second TD, Ravens/Eagles, MNF). These are all problems, and they are going to get worse until some superstar gets his clock cleaned and we have a new Kevin Everett (if it has to be someone, God forbid, please let it be Brady), field-wide fistfights break out, or someone is proven to be throwing games.

 

Kevin Everett had what to do with the refs? Field wide fist fights? Throwing games? I think you might be a little crazy.

[NoSaint]

 

I agree. There is no obvious reason for injuries to go up. In fact I haven't heard of a single injury linked to a call or missed call this season. It's a nonsense line that the players (who have proven over and over again that they as a group have no interest in increasing their own safety) and the media keep repeating for some soft minded fans to absorb.

 

Give us plenty of examples please. And you may have missed it, but Bountygate was actually about players and coaches seeking to cause injury to other players.

 

Exactly. Apparently, players are so concerned about safety, yet they need other adults to keep them from willfully hurting eachother. Makes no logical sense.

 

Kevin Everett had what to do with the refs? Field wide fist fights? Throwing games? I think you might be a little crazy.

 

i mentioned this in another thread, but ultimately, its almost impossible - especially with a two week sample size - to prove what a lot of peoples guts are telling them (honestly on both sides).

 

are injuries up in week two because they noticed a call wasnt being made in week one? i saw a lot of teams taking shots that seemed out of the ordinary, and not as many flags on those. players are to blame for stretching the rules, but its also the refs job to make sure those players arent stretching them.

 

Was the hit on a sliding alex smith leaving his face bloodied a result of noticing the flags werent flying, or was it just incidental contact that wouldve happened last year too?

 

Was the scrum on monday night just something that happens, or was it a situation that was a result of the refs and a situation where a player - or more likely coach or ref - could have gotten hurt?

 

right now its just such a small sample that anyone can argue that their gut is telling them either way. mine happens to be telling me things arent right, and how they respond this week will be an important test.

[Mr. WEO]

i mentioned this in another thread, but ultimately, its almost impossible - especially with a two week sample size - to prove what a lot of peoples guts are telling them (honestly on both sides).

 

are injuries up in week two because they noticed a call wasnt being made in week one? i saw a lot of teams taking shots that seemed out of the ordinary, and not as many flags on those. players are to blame for stretching the rules, but its also the refs job to make sure those players arent stretching them.

 

Was the hit on a sliding alex smith leaving his face bloodied a result of noticing the flags werent flying, or was it just incidental contact that wouldve happened last year too?

 

Was the scrum on monday night just something that happens, or was it a situation that was a result of the refs and a situation where a player - or more likely coach or ref - could have gotten hurt?

 

right now its just such a small sample that anyone can argue that their gut is telling them either way. mine happens to be telling me things arent right, and how they respond this week will be an important test.

 

There is no reason to believe that the hit on Smith had anything to due with who might or might not be blowing the whistle. Ask Favre or Warner if they thought the "real refs" were keeping order in those games v. the Saints.

 

The scrum could just as easily be blamed on the Fox's shameless bellyaching and verbal abuse of the refs--his really stupid challenge/tantrum over an obvious 12 men on the field penalty gave his players (all players) clear evidence that it was acceptable to disrespect these refs.

 

My guess is that the refs are going to call things a lot tighter this week and all of those who are saying they are concerned about player safety will instead complain about the increase in the PI, roughing the passer, helmet to helmet calls being made. Watch for it--it's inevitable.

[NoSaint]

 

 

There is no reason to believe that the hit on Smith had anything to due with who might or might not be blowing the whistle. Ask Favre or Warner if they thought the "real refs" were keeping order in those games v. the Saints.

 

The scrum could just as easily be blamed on the Fox's shameless bellyaching and verbal abuse of the refs--his really stupid challenge/tantrum over an obvious 12 men on the field penalty gave his players (all players) clear evidence that it was acceptable to disrespect these refs.

 

My guess is that the refs are going to call things a lot tighter this week and all of those who are saying they are concerned about player safety will instead complain about the increase in the PI, roughing the passer, helmet to helmet calls being made. Watch for it--it's inevitable.

 

well, they wont be wrong to say its inconsistent in that case. which is a problem, but not a dire one either.

 

like i said, this early - the sample size is tiny to begin with, and then you couple that with fans watching even fewer within that small size... a couple bad games and its atrocious, and couple good ones and you cant understand what all the fuss is. the smith example shows how literally any borderline hit will be able to be debated - and will be based on what people already believe. you are no more right saying it would have happened than the guy saying it is an issue. until a lot more data is collected - it just isnt quantifiable.

 

from what i have seen there are clear issues with consistency of calls, including how the rules once called are enforced (missing distances, tacked on the end vs from the spot vs from the line for instance, and i think i recall a loss of down issue too but cant remember what game) which the latter half tends not to be an issue nearly as often with normal refs. we dont have jon gruden searching for it to point out in 2011 either - so maybe we didnt catch as much. a valid discussion.

 

flow - the games have been longer. i dont remember the time, but its taking longer to execute the same 60 mins of clock and thats not good for anybody

 

respect/confidence - there is not the respect of officials, and officials are not demanding it. until this happens, i worry things get worse not better. its fixable, but its not easy once it goes bad and it went bad in several games this week.

 

im not trying to be dramatic here - but there are noticeable differences. what effect those have long term, and how quickly they can be remedied is yet to be seen.

Edited September 19, 2012 by NoSaint

[Captain Caveman]

I didn't see it but ya. Young is right. The NFL could care less unless ratings drop or a superstar gets severly injured on a blatant penalty type of play. I'd be a little more comfortable actually if the NFL gave all teams an extra 2 challenges a game. Would cut down on some of the bs.

 

Yeah, but you still can't challenge a penalty (e.g. pass interference, personal fouls, etc...) which have been the majority of missed calls.

[jumbalaya]

I didn't see it but ya. Young is right. The NFL could care less unless ratings drop or a superstar gets severly injured on a blatant penalty type of play. I'd be a little more comfortable actually if the NFL gave all teams an extra 2 challenges a game. Would cut down on some of the bs.

The monday night game would have lasted two more hours fi they did this.

[Stuck behind enemy lines]

You cant blame the league for running a wildly successful business. Young makes a good point, but it appears that everyone is after all of the money, not just the league. Player lawsuits, agents, municipalities, State Governments all want a piece. If the fans are willing to pay, via PSL's, TV, Games , Shirts etc then keep selling adn selling until something changes.

 

As for the refs, I really have a problem with them basically saying the league has all this cash, and we want more just on the basis the league has it. Are they doing anything more than they did last season or the season before? Dont know about any of you, but in the world I live in raises, bonuses etc have been non existent for quite some time. Actually things have gone backwards so what entitles the refs to more? Many of these part-timers make significant dollars into the six figures.

 

I agree with the league on this one. The refs are trying to strong-arm for the cash and its easy to say its only a few million so why is it an issue. Its a money grab for everyone involved. Players, Managers, owners, refs, vendors and they all want their fair share-which is way more than they are entitled to. We will be the ones eventually paying for eveyones unrealistic demands. Also are the replacement refs incapable of learning the game? From what I read on this board and many others you could probably pull hundreds of people who know the game and its rules as good as the regular refs and put them out there on the field. After a while no one would really know the difference. Its experience and the ability to learn that makes refs good, not some magical ability. GIve these guys some time and I think they will get the job done until and if the regular refs get back.

 

We cant complain about the costs of things too much and the underlying greed, because the only ones who can really change things are the people paying the freight-THE FANS!

[Malazan]

I think it's interesting that the players are all aflutter to talk about the 'safety' of players and then go out there and perform illegal hits knowingly because the refs won't see it. Player safety starts with the players.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

Of course the risk for injury goes up. These officials can't control anything about the game and these post play scrubs are getting more and more prolonged and intense. They're intimadated, over their head scabs that don't belong at this level. The NFL is a joke for letting it continue. Once a player or players gets hurt in a post play altercation they will change their tube hopefully.

[Stuck behind enemy lines]

I agree, it does start with the players. Should be managed by the coaching staff and ownership. Its not up to the refs to teach safely but to only enforce the rules, and enforce them correctly.

The media is really playing this up as a typical greedy league and ownership thing, and that the players and managers are totally innocent. The whole thing is disgusting to me.

[John in Jax]

Of course the risk for injury goes. Once a player or players gets hurt in a post play altercation they will change their tube hopefully.

 

See post #30, right above yours.

[NoSaint]

I think it's interesting that the players are all aflutter to talk about the 'safety' of players and then go out there and perform illegal hits knowingly because the refs won't see it. Player safety starts with the players.

well, even more than safety, every one of them will say they are 100% about winning - and theyve agreed to let a 3rd party enforce a set of rules to reign in the risk factor.

Edited September 19, 2012 by NoSaint

[DrDawkinstein]

I think it's interesting that the players are all aflutter to talk about the 'safety' of players and then go out there and perform illegal hits knowingly because the refs won't see it. Player safety starts with the players.

 

You and I both know that all logic and reason and control go out the window once that game starts. That's just the way these guys are programmed. It's why we have rules against horse collar tackles and everything else. We already know the players cant be trusted to police their own safety. Nor should they, really.

 

I also dont think you'll find the guys that have talked about safety being the same ones that cheap shot people.

[NoSaint]

 

 

You and I both know that all logic and reason and control go out the window once that game starts. That's just the way these guys are programmed. It's why we have rules against horse collar tackles and everything else. We already know the players cant be trusted to police their own safety. Nor should they, really.

 

I also dont think you'll find the guys that have talked about safety being the same ones that cheap shot people.

 

you and i, generally the same page on this one i think.

[billsfan89]

How the NFL can be this cheap when they are the worlds most valuable TV property in the World is beyond me. The Replacement Refs suck. I never thought I would miss the old officials but here we are. The new refs don't know how to control the game and they miss calls and procedures that would other wise be routine.

 

Is the 2.5 million in raises and added benefits a year really worth it to the NFL who prints money? Just cave NFL, you look small in this dispute.

[Stuck behind enemy lines]

Its easy to say just cave, its only 2.5 million. Thats every year, with a raise added to that which quickly rises to 3m a year, and before you know it it's real money. Just caving sets a real bad precedent for every other bargaining group. I find it hard to believe that the replacement refs cant catch up to the regular refs skillset fairly quickly. Either way my opinion and everyone else's doesnt really matter as the lawyers will make the decisions in the end.

[Mr. WEO]

You and I both know that all logic and reason and control go out the window once that game starts. That's just the way these guys are programmed. It's why we have rules against horse collar tackles and everything else. We already know the players cant be trusted to police their own safety. Nor should they, really.

 

I also dont think you'll find the guys that have talked about safety being the same ones that cheap shot people.

 

No it's not. They aren't programmed to take cheap shots or every game every year would be an endless series of personal foul flags. Stop saying that.

 

A player making a decision to lay a late hit knows he's going to get a flag--new redfs or old. I've seen a ton of roughing the passer calls, helemet to helmet calls, PI's---what exactly are you talking?

 

And the least likely time a guy is going to get injured is in the after the whistle slap fests they are getting into. It's hard to hurt a player by shoving him or pointing angrily at him.

 

This is all fabricated outrage so far. The level of refereeing has caused no significant injuries (if any). I see no way it would be different, in a safety sense, with the real refs. Can anyone say there fewer cheap shots last season at this point? Of course not, so why pretend there are now? As many have pointed out, no ref can prevent a cheap shot/injury, he can only penalize it after the fact. It is not possoble for me to believe that players, immediately after kickoff or just prior to committing the foul have calculated the odds that the replacement ref will throw the flag and then decide to cheap shot. That concept isas ridiculous as it sounds.

 

And what exactly do the real refs want? They are being offered more money than they ever have been. They are being told that their pensions will be converted to 401ks (like the vast majority of Americans currently have). They have other, lilkely more significant incomes and pensions already from their "day jobs". Now more money is not enough money for their play job? The league should just give them whatever they now demand because they have a lot of money laying around? They didn't do it for the players on the last CBA (to put it mildly), why would they do it with the most easily (logistically) replaced part of the game--the refs?